I find top hardly ever slows me down. I play at a certain pace and it keeps up. If I play too slow in general well that's a different issue and why we have time limits on the games. I say if your argument is about speed save that for casual where you can request people not play with the cards you find unfun.
I think the same applies to Iona. Don't ban her because she is unfun but because she ends games in turn 2-3 (if true). Same with Emrakul. I find Emrakul extremely unfun and disgusting but it comes out much slower when you have to rely on ramp and acceleration instead of pure cheats.
I think Mystic Tutor/Enlightened Tutor make sense to ban since they fetch combo only normally and while you say there is nothing wrong with that it is the 2-3 cost items that are tutored for that end the games early.
While Progenitus is not unbeatable any more than Emrakul is, it is likely to end the game quickly if it hits the board. Casting it hard is not an easy thing to do so every one cheats it into play. That seems like a reason to ban it imho.
Grindstone is one half of an insanely broken turn 2 combo. It needs banning. It is not easily dealt with if you aren't expecting it so it is definitely a coin flipper. If everyone liked the coinflip aspect of the tourney then no one would be complaining and filling this article with 100+ comments about this.
Helm isn't the broken part of the combo imho Leyline is. Comes into play free if you start with it and unless you are running Format Warper I mean Force of Will and have one in your hand with a blue card to discard you will quickly lose the game. Granted Helm Line is a lot saner than painter stone, and since it is slower (turn 2 is not common though doable) you can potentially draw an answer in the few turns you have before helm comes done.
Doomsday is pretty horrendous. I think that speaks for itself.
Common Courtesy is more to the point. I don't think magic players in general lack common sense (it is a useful magic tool after all) but they do lack courtesy. Even the basics of "Hi How are you?" (conversational English 101) are beyond many if not most. So expecting all these alpha male personalities to take it easy on the softies is hoping for more consideration than is available. As you said...might as well hope someone drops money on you.
Thank you guys for all the comments. Feedback is always appreciated.
The way I wrote the Lotus Cobra section was a little unclear. It swapped places with Overgrown Battlements several times before I finally decided to just play both and cut another card.
Jace provides a pretty unique effect in the format, and no other card will be able to completely replace it, but if you want substituting Sphinx of Magosi or Master of the Wild Hunt could make up the card advantage while providing a threat.
@ platipus10 Good luck with your singleton deck! Always happy to bring more people into the format.
Natural Order - ban - makes cheating out creatures too easy
Progenitus - do not ban - this is by no means unbeatable
Iona, Angel of Emeria - ban - simply an unfun card
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - ban - too powerful with remaining ways to cheat out
Doomsday - no opinion
Mystical Tutor - do not ban - combo is fine and this is no more offensive than twenty other cards
Enlightened Tutor - do not ban - no more offensive than a hundred other cards
Grindstone - do not ban - easily dealt with
Helm of Obedience - no opinion
Goblin Recruiter - no opinion
Sensei's Divining Top - ban - personally, this card just drives me nuts given the additional slowness to the games
I think banning top would be overreacting. Plus it enables a lot of creature based casual strategies that care about the top card of your dec like clash.
Hypergenesis - combo only card
Thopter Foundry - part of a broken combo
Aether Vial - This should have been banned along time ago if you ever want a chance vs tier 1 goblins or merfolk
Dark Depths - Only used in a combo
The current extra banned cards can stay banned
Natural Order - ban broken with Hydra
Progenitus - Stay as its a creature and is not broken without Order
Iona, Angel of Emeria - Is not nearly as broken if you ban Mystical Tutor for the animation spell.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Keep an eye on
Doomsday - dont ban the card ban the tutor
Mystical Tutor - Banning this solves so many issues as it counts as another four of a sorcecry or instant of your choice which is why its banned in Legacy
Enlightened Tutor - Same as above but but for artifacts and enchantments this format is about creatures.
Grindstone - ban only a combo card
Helm of Obedience - ban only a combo card
Goblin Recruiter - ban due to how devastating it is.
Sensei's Divining Top - ban as per my comments elsewhere
I'd say that tooth an nail, and forbidden orchard are missing from the list. Oath on its own is actually very symmetrical and somewhat fair even if extremely powerful it's Orchard that pushes it over the top and into unfair here in tribal.
Top really has no need of a ban unless we were also going to ban mirri's guile and slyvan library because we'd believe that the ability is too powerful.
OK well out side of the normal tribal banned list we have the following cards which may need banning
Goblin Lackey-currently banned
Earthcraft-currently banned
Bazaar of Baghdad- currently banned
Survival of the Fittest- currently banned
Lion's Eye Diamond- currently banned
Natural Order
Progenitus
Iona, Angel of Emeria
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Doomsday
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Grindstone
Helm of Obedience
Goblin Recruiter
Sensei's Divining Top- not sure why this was included but I'll put it up for discussion
Option 2 is the best way to go to start with and see how it plays out. BYOS has a long banned list and there have not been any issues in that event.
But...
The event needs to be advertised on a weekly basis like the other player run events with people posting their deck lists to encourage other players and ideas. These can still be used as a basis for the weekly PureMTGO article.
There is a group already setup but it needs to be activate with updates on what’s going on this in turn with the above suggestion will work together. This can also be where you keep your banned list for all to see.
Tribal can be a great player run event that works in the same way as BYOS and Pauper it just needs a lot of work but this can be done a step at a time. No one is expecting a miracle and there are lots of people who have posted in this thread who I expect would be willing to help keep the event alive.
Even if i would mostly agree with you, I dont want to resign and still believe that common sense in a nice community is possible. I still hope anyway ;)
"There really is no good reason that this format cant be both casual based and competetive"
yes and no. It is not only a question of casual or comptetitive format, but a question of the health of that format.
As far as I know, it doesnt exist 1 deck able to answer to every kind of deck (aggro/control/combo) only with its maindeck. The 15 sb cards allows to adapt your deck to every kind of deck : it doesnt mean you would win, but it mean that you would resist better and in most case really compete with every kind of decks.
In example, in Legacy, to deal with a dredge archetype is so difficult that almost 80% of the current build (and probably more)are simply autoloosing round 1 to dredge/icho.dec ... but thank to the sb, you can efficiently compete and beat it. What would be the situation with no sideboard available ? That would be either a coin flip game (you hope to not encounter this deck or simply you loose to it if your face it) or a bipolar meta (you play dredge or anti-dredge and no other deck). Dredge is a fine deck, and I have nothing against it, but that's a fact.
And currently, tribal has no sb. It is neither good nor bad, it is fact but it has consequences as well on the game : if you allow to play every kind of deck competitively, then you must be ready to generate autoloose or autowin frequently and, imho, that would be at the opposite of the definition of a healthy format. To play tribal in a really competitive view, either to allow sb is necessary or to restrict several kind of deck is necessary. It is especialy true with combo : if we except really bad combo (5/6 cards needed to go off in example), combo will ever generate autowin & autoloose if there is no sb available. You could try to annihilate the fastest combo deck, but another will arrive on play and it will go on and on and on ...
Another point is that tribal classic is an eternal format and the possibilities to break the limit are so huge that I bet you will never find a perfect B&R list with no sb available.
That was my point. So to sum up : while there wouldnt be sb in tribal classic, to restrict some kind of deck is necessary to keep a competitive and healthy format. These restriction bould be written (good luck!) or induced by the common sense of the player.
PS : I hope to be clear, but my written english remains limited ^^
I will freely admit, I'm nuts for tokens and am just teaching myself to draft the more ramp-oriented decks well. I got a two crusher, pelakka wurm and gigantomancer deck my last draft that was pretty sweet. But I still find myself agonizing over whether I need to push myself to take Overgrown Battlements higher. I took a Heat Ray over one battlement, then I hesitantly took an Ondu Giant over the other one I saw, since my removal was split between red and black (and I also had two Dread Drones and an Emrakul's Hatcher). Needed the lower-drop acceleration and early blocking the Battlements could have provided, though. Did 2-1 with the deck, and if not for one mistake in round 2 it mighta had a shot at 3-0. I am grabbing crushers a bit higher than I used to, and appreciating it.
Ye of little faith. You're right it might be near impossible to enforce that but same goes with minor deck changes between matches in any player run event.
That just more or less goes without saying. What does need to be said is that do you want the format to grow and become something that everyone can enjoy or keep the same stagnant pool of 8-10 players while u do little to nothing to promote or help the format other then Blast players publicly, make an article to get paid for blasting player publicly and allow such blantantly horrid behavior from the players as well.
Yeah shard the Last time you advertised this tourney in a place with all the rules posted was may 22nd in this thread:
So your right asking anything more is too much since you seem to be unwilling to do even what should be the minimum required of any tourney host.
So wanting to ban me because what? I play within the rules as printed? Or that because i actually tell people to pike off when they start blasting me or others about their deck choices?
Or that i'm vocal about the more then obvious double standard being put into play at almost every tribal event run?
You know i've already had several players say that they love tribal as a format and that it's the hostile environment that you and your players have breed that has kept them away?
That if these changes happened that they'd be willing to come back and try ?
We all have lives and whatnot but if you want this format to be more then a joke someone's going to have to put some effort into it. To me it's just sounding more an more like you want to get easy money for playing with friends.
Now please prove me wrong and actually listen to what the community wants because this isn't about you,me,my decks, Or as you say me trying to take over. This is about what is best for the format and how do we get there. So lets quit trying to live in utopia or beliving that if we close our eyes that the big bad monster will go away and actually work on it and listen to what our community has to say.
I have been looking for a Tribal event for some time. I definitely think a weekly post letting players know when, where, and whats banned will help a lot. I had to do some digging just to find a post about this event. I used to play in Tribal events all the time, and the biggest thing was combo decks. Sure a deck would be allowed to play a few weeks, but if the deck became a constant winner because the combo was too consistent bans were put in place. It's not weather or not the list should fallow Legacy or whatever, but that the broken combos are taken out without banning cards that don't need to be banned.
I dont think anyone every agreed on the legacy thing...quit trying to take this over. Im not willing to deal with the issues between sideboarding and everything else. Sideboarding will be nearly impossible to enforce people staying at 1/3 creatures. Its not worth the extra footwork to try to constantly police that.
The suggestion was to follow the legacy banned list. Not play in legacy.
Though to be quite honest I enjoy AJ's approach of banning people. But thats just me.
Keep in mind everyone no one is expecting this to be an overnight fix but with an honest effort by everyone involved in the format and thoes how would like to be but are not at this point for what ever their reasons we can make this format enjoyable to jump into even for a new player.
To Recap so far if im not mistaken these are prety much univerally agreed upon right now.
-Keep the format as 1/3rd creatures required at all times
-Use the Legacy filter
This serves two perpouses a) it adds some abuseive cards to the banned list
and b) it gives us sideboards
-Continue to use the Tribal wars current banned list in addition to the legacy list
Now for the subject of banned list to be added that it will be touchy subject as it always is for any format however can we safely say that to start with our target cards are early game winning combos and cards that just flat create an unfun enviroment?
Examples at this point have been mentioned in the above comments.
Im confidant that over time if we continue to work on the format we'll be able to work out the kinks as we see them untill we've accomplished something as great as both pauper and classic have become.
Moat.
Hah. Annihilator 4 and 10 or 12 damage still stings.
Hated it. All the way through. Sorry?
I find top hardly ever slows me down. I play at a certain pace and it keeps up. If I play too slow in general well that's a different issue and why we have time limits on the games. I say if your argument is about speed save that for casual where you can request people not play with the cards you find unfun.
I think the same applies to Iona. Don't ban her because she is unfun but because she ends games in turn 2-3 (if true). Same with Emrakul. I find Emrakul extremely unfun and disgusting but it comes out much slower when you have to rely on ramp and acceleration instead of pure cheats.
I think Mystic Tutor/Enlightened Tutor make sense to ban since they fetch combo only normally and while you say there is nothing wrong with that it is the 2-3 cost items that are tutored for that end the games early.
While Progenitus is not unbeatable any more than Emrakul is, it is likely to end the game quickly if it hits the board. Casting it hard is not an easy thing to do so every one cheats it into play. That seems like a reason to ban it imho.
Grindstone is one half of an insanely broken turn 2 combo. It needs banning. It is not easily dealt with if you aren't expecting it so it is definitely a coin flipper. If everyone liked the coinflip aspect of the tourney then no one would be complaining and filling this article with 100+ comments about this.
Helm isn't the broken part of the combo imho Leyline is. Comes into play free if you start with it and unless you are running Format Warper I mean Force of Will and have one in your hand with a blue card to discard you will quickly lose the game. Granted Helm Line is a lot saner than painter stone, and since it is slower (turn 2 is not common though doable) you can potentially draw an answer in the few turns you have before helm comes done.
Doomsday is pretty horrendous. I think that speaks for itself.
Not easily beatable for sure. Beatable though. Any mass sweeper that doesn't care about protection will do.
Common Courtesy is more to the point. I don't think magic players in general lack common sense (it is a useful magic tool after all) but they do lack courtesy. Even the basics of "Hi How are you?" (conversational English 101) are beyond many if not most. So expecting all these alpha male personalities to take it easy on the softies is hoping for more consideration than is available. As you said...might as well hope someone drops money on you.
Thank you guys for all the comments. Feedback is always appreciated.
The way I wrote the Lotus Cobra section was a little unclear. It swapped places with Overgrown Battlements several times before I finally decided to just play both and cut another card.
Jace provides a pretty unique effect in the format, and no other card will be able to completely replace it, but if you want substituting Sphinx of Magosi or Master of the Wild Hunt could make up the card advantage while providing a threat.
@ platipus10 Good luck with your singleton deck! Always happy to bring more people into the format.
ill be honest...im drawing a blank on how something Pro-Everything is easily beatable...
I have no issues with the current banned list.
Natural Order - ban - makes cheating out creatures too easy
Progenitus - do not ban - this is by no means unbeatable
Iona, Angel of Emeria - ban - simply an unfun card
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - ban - too powerful with remaining ways to cheat out
Doomsday - no opinion
Mystical Tutor - do not ban - combo is fine and this is no more offensive than twenty other cards
Enlightened Tutor - do not ban - no more offensive than a hundred other cards
Grindstone - do not ban - easily dealt with
Helm of Obedience - no opinion
Goblin Recruiter - no opinion
Sensei's Divining Top - ban - personally, this card just drives me nuts given the additional slowness to the games
without emralkul iona or prog it isnt so bad imo
I think banning top would be overreacting. Plus it enables a lot of creature based casual strategies that care about the top card of your dec like clash.
also wondering current thoughts on show and tell as well as sneak attack?
I'm not too worried if Sensei's Divining Top is banned or not as Ranth makes a good point its already present in other cards, Jace included.
I believe you need to ban these as well
Hypergenesis - combo only card
Thopter Foundry - part of a broken combo
Aether Vial - This should have been banned along time ago if you ever want a chance vs tier 1 goblins or merfolk
Dark Depths - Only used in a combo
The current extra banned cards can stay banned
Natural Order - ban broken with Hydra
Progenitus - Stay as its a creature and is not broken without Order
Iona, Angel of Emeria - Is not nearly as broken if you ban Mystical Tutor for the animation spell.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Keep an eye on
Doomsday - dont ban the card ban the tutor
Mystical Tutor - Banning this solves so many issues as it counts as another four of a sorcecry or instant of your choice which is why its banned in Legacy
Enlightened Tutor - Same as above but but for artifacts and enchantments this format is about creatures.
Grindstone - ban only a combo card
Helm of Obedience - ban only a combo card
Goblin Recruiter - ban due to how devastating it is.
Sensei's Divining Top - ban as per my comments elsewhere
I'd say that tooth an nail, and forbidden orchard are missing from the list. Oath on its own is actually very symmetrical and somewhat fair even if extremely powerful it's Orchard that pushes it over the top and into unfair here in tribal.
Top really has no need of a ban unless we were also going to ban mirri's guile and slyvan library because we'd believe that the ability is too powerful.
OK well out side of the normal tribal banned list we have the following cards which may need banning
Goblin Lackey-currently banned
Earthcraft-currently banned
Bazaar of Baghdad- currently banned
Survival of the Fittest- currently banned
Lion's Eye Diamond- currently banned
Natural Order
Progenitus
Iona, Angel of Emeria
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Doomsday
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Grindstone
Helm of Obedience
Goblin Recruiter
Sensei's Divining Top- not sure why this was included but I'll put it up for discussion
Now Discuss
Option 2 is the best way to go to start with and see how it plays out. BYOS has a long banned list and there have not been any issues in that event.
But...
The event needs to be advertised on a weekly basis like the other player run events with people posting their deck lists to encourage other players and ideas. These can still be used as a basis for the weekly PureMTGO article.
There is a group already setup but it needs to be activate with updates on what’s going on this in turn with the above suggestion will work together. This can also be where you keep your banned list for all to see.
Tribal can be a great player run event that works in the same way as BYOS and Pauper it just needs a lot of work but this can be done a step at a time. No one is expecting a miracle and there are lots of people who have posted in this thread who I expect would be willing to help keep the event alive.
So we are basically now at a crossroads...
Option 1
Playing the games in Legacy format. Which will allow sideboards but no reliable way to police it. Plus a handful of additional banned cards.
Option 2
Coming up with an updated banned list and continue playing in the Classic Tribal format where any departure from the banned list results in a DQ
Even if i would mostly agree with you, I dont want to resign and still believe that common sense in a nice community is possible. I still hope anyway ;)
"There really is no good reason that this format cant be both casual based and competetive"
yes and no. It is not only a question of casual or comptetitive format, but a question of the health of that format.
As far as I know, it doesnt exist 1 deck able to answer to every kind of deck (aggro/control/combo) only with its maindeck. The 15 sb cards allows to adapt your deck to every kind of deck : it doesnt mean you would win, but it mean that you would resist better and in most case really compete with every kind of decks.
In example, in Legacy, to deal with a dredge archetype is so difficult that almost 80% of the current build (and probably more)are simply autoloosing round 1 to dredge/icho.dec ... but thank to the sb, you can efficiently compete and beat it. What would be the situation with no sideboard available ? That would be either a coin flip game (you hope to not encounter this deck or simply you loose to it if your face it) or a bipolar meta (you play dredge or anti-dredge and no other deck). Dredge is a fine deck, and I have nothing against it, but that's a fact.
And currently, tribal has no sb. It is neither good nor bad, it is fact but it has consequences as well on the game : if you allow to play every kind of deck competitively, then you must be ready to generate autoloose or autowin frequently and, imho, that would be at the opposite of the definition of a healthy format. To play tribal in a really competitive view, either to allow sb is necessary or to restrict several kind of deck is necessary. It is especialy true with combo : if we except really bad combo (5/6 cards needed to go off in example), combo will ever generate autowin & autoloose if there is no sb available. You could try to annihilate the fastest combo deck, but another will arrive on play and it will go on and on and on ...
Another point is that tribal classic is an eternal format and the possibilities to break the limit are so huge that I bet you will never find a perfect B&R list with no sb available.
That was my point. So to sum up : while there wouldnt be sb in tribal classic, to restrict some kind of deck is necessary to keep a competitive and healthy format. These restriction bould be written (good luck!) or induced by the common sense of the player.
PS : I hope to be clear, but my written english remains limited ^^
I will freely admit, I'm nuts for tokens and am just teaching myself to draft the more ramp-oriented decks well. I got a two crusher, pelakka wurm and gigantomancer deck my last draft that was pretty sweet. But I still find myself agonizing over whether I need to push myself to take Overgrown Battlements higher. I took a Heat Ray over one battlement, then I hesitantly took an Ondu Giant over the other one I saw, since my removal was split between red and black (and I also had two Dread Drones and an Emrakul's Hatcher). Needed the lower-drop acceleration and early blocking the Battlements could have provided, though. Did 2-1 with the deck, and if not for one mistake in round 2 it mighta had a shot at 3-0. I am grabbing crushers a bit higher than I used to, and appreciating it.
Ye of little faith. You're right it might be near impossible to enforce that but same goes with minor deck changes between matches in any player run event.
That just more or less goes without saying. What does need to be said is that do you want the format to grow and become something that everyone can enjoy or keep the same stagnant pool of 8-10 players while u do little to nothing to promote or help the format other then Blast players publicly, make an article to get paid for blasting player publicly and allow such blantantly horrid behavior from the players as well.
Yeah shard the Last time you advertised this tourney in a place with all the rules posted was may 22nd in this thread:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/24591457/Tribal_Apocal...
So your right asking anything more is too much since you seem to be unwilling to do even what should be the minimum required of any tourney host.
So wanting to ban me because what? I play within the rules as printed? Or that because i actually tell people to pike off when they start blasting me or others about their deck choices?
Or that i'm vocal about the more then obvious double standard being put into play at almost every tribal event run?
You know i've already had several players say that they love tribal as a format and that it's the hostile environment that you and your players have breed that has kept them away?
That if these changes happened that they'd be willing to come back and try ?
We all have lives and whatnot but if you want this format to be more then a joke someone's going to have to put some effort into it. To me it's just sounding more an more like you want to get easy money for playing with friends.
Now please prove me wrong and actually listen to what the community wants because this isn't about you,me,my decks, Or as you say me trying to take over. This is about what is best for the format and how do we get there. So lets quit trying to live in utopia or beliving that if we close our eyes that the big bad monster will go away and actually work on it and listen to what our community has to say.
I have been looking for a Tribal event for some time. I definitely think a weekly post letting players know when, where, and whats banned will help a lot. I had to do some digging just to find a post about this event. I used to play in Tribal events all the time, and the biggest thing was combo decks. Sure a deck would be allowed to play a few weeks, but if the deck became a constant winner because the combo was too consistent bans were put in place. It's not weather or not the list should fallow Legacy or whatever, but that the broken combos are taken out without banning cards that don't need to be banned.
I dont think anyone every agreed on the legacy thing...quit trying to take this over. Im not willing to deal with the issues between sideboarding and everything else. Sideboarding will be nearly impossible to enforce people staying at 1/3 creatures. Its not worth the extra footwork to try to constantly police that.
The suggestion was to follow the legacy banned list. Not play in legacy.
Though to be quite honest I enjoy AJ's approach of banning people. But thats just me.
Keep in mind everyone no one is expecting this to be an overnight fix but with an honest effort by everyone involved in the format and thoes how would like to be but are not at this point for what ever their reasons we can make this format enjoyable to jump into even for a new player.
To Recap so far if im not mistaken these are prety much univerally agreed upon right now.
-Keep the format as 1/3rd creatures required at all times
-Use the Legacy filter
This serves two perpouses a) it adds some abuseive cards to the banned list
and b) it gives us sideboards
-Continue to use the Tribal wars current banned list in addition to the legacy list
Now for the subject of banned list to be added that it will be touchy subject as it always is for any format however can we safely say that to start with our target cards are early game winning combos and cards that just flat create an unfun enviroment?
Examples at this point have been mentioned in the above comments.
Im confidant that over time if we continue to work on the format we'll be able to work out the kinks as we see them untill we've accomplished something as great as both pauper and classic have become.