I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye on the "light touch" on the banned list.
I'd suggest.
Mystical tutor (the backbone of many combo decks)
Doomsday (keeping 5 cards isn't tribal)
sneak attack (on the fence about this one)
hypergenisis (on the fence about this one)
Natural order (just banning progenitus might work better, NO going for other green guys is a non issue)
hermit druid (if you wanna see unfun, that's the definition)
glimpse of nature (elf combo isn't ever fun)
grindstone (no purpose other than combo)
helm of obedience (no tribal purpose)
iona shield of elmira (i've never seen this card hardcasted in tribal)
those would be my 10 if i were forced to pick 10. I truly think natural order might be the wrong target. Without progenitus it lacks an instant game ender, all the other green targets are easy to deal with in comparison, and are dead cards in an opening hand.
I say again I am against the idea of banning cards in this format. I think what is banned already is a mistake. I think the concept of enforcing a CODE of conduct instead makes sense for a small PRE. If it grows to 30-40 players+ then maybe that won't work but when the most new comers you get in a week is 2-3 the rules should be easy enough to enforce. I watched today's episodes instead of playing (as I have often done) because I know my decks aren't up to snuff with the top tier shoehorns but nothing like that showed up. We had elves by a new comer and Bringers (by LOurs), several people brought soldier varients AJ brought his typical original idea deck. Mel brought her usual original idea deck. It was so civilized and every day each match could have been a casual get together. There were a few decks I didn't like but that is more about taste.
The problem with ban lists is they require a seriously delicate touch. It is easy to upset the balance by taking out a card that while it seems unfair and broken itself keeps 8-9 other cards in check. I don't think anyone here (no offense to any) is really qualified to give a truely balanced list. Better I think to identify the truly broken classic combos and just ask that people NOT play them on pain of being left out of the running. In fact I had a thought that there could be a more hard and fast rule that concession (or self defeat) aside a game could not end before turn 4 without the winner being dqed.
I will note that the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo deck that Jhoke won with (3-0) today is a great example of why Enlightened Tutor is such a strong card but even so, Naturalize, Oblivion Ring etc are typical and good answers to that. So it comes down to play skill, luck and deck building. What we want in other words.
My use of the word 'Moat.' was in answer to 'How do you stop Progenitus?' I absolutely don't think it should be banned. Hell, I build a lot of my strategies around it, for and against. I've won because of it and been beaten by it. I firmly believe it should stay part of the format, and as I typed earlier, I favor a light touch on the banned list and a common understanding amongst the players not to shoehorn in classic I-win combos.
Flippers used moat as an example of a card to tutor for with enlightened tutor. He talked about a deck having 8 moats. If you want to run 1/2 of your available card slots dedicated to moat and finding moat, then that's your choice. It leaves you very few playable card slots left to play anything else.
Anyway, back to my post about enlightened tutor. If you've banned all the combo artfacts, than what's left to enlightened tutor for that's broken? I'd like to see the ability to hunt for enchantments that can have great synergy with your deck. I don't think that's broken or unfair. If someone finds a way to break it we can always ban it from that point forward. I think we need to be careful not to go totally overboard here and have a 100 card long ban list. In all honesty there's probably less than 10 cards outside of the wizards list that could use a banning, let's just keep a cool head here.
Not that I've noticed and really is that a legitimate reason to ban anything? (There are lots and lots of cards that take time to process...shall we ban allies with ETB effects?) The time limits ensure that a player can't just hog all the time, unlike in paper where everyone shares the time limit and slow play has to be called on by a judge.
so now running moat is considered a combo? Are we trying to remove non tribal combo, or are we asking what cards people don't like playing against? Every deck I've entered with has an answer or work around for moat or other troublesome enchantments. You might say enlightened tutor also grabs broken artifacts, well aren't those troublesome ones like grindstone and helm getting banned? If they're banned, what are you so scared of it getting? Colours like green, and to a lesser degree have to use enchantments to help power their decks. With all the nasty artifacts being banned, what are we afraid of e-tutor grabbing? Red would see a huge bonus to see green or white's ability to more effectively play enchantments neutered. They could continue to play 20 creatures + 2 burn spells just the same as they always did.
Just be careful how over the top you go with banning cards. I understand getting rid of some of the combo only elements. It would be a shame to lose some pieces that also enable cool ground breaking decks too though, and I feel that's the direction this is being steered into.
By easily beatable, I do not mean that all decks can deal with it. What I do mean is that there are a number of strategies (mass destruction, fast decks, even Clone), which can keep Progenitus from being a game ender. I think Emrakul and Iona are much worse than Progenitus. On my sliding scale of powerful/too powerful it is on the edge of powerful.
The problem isn't Progenitus, it is cheating it into play early and permanently.
Look - I have no problem with any of these cards getting banned, though I think Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor are the two that unfortunately have the most legitimate uses and the greatest potential for breaking the format. I think Top is just as powerful for setting up a deck to win as either of these cards, but it does it in a consistent and methodical approach. Top is very difficult to eliminate without counterspells (same can be said for Mystical Tutor and whatever it searches for).
"Helm isn't the broken part of the combo imho Leyline is. Comes into play free if you start with it and unless you are running Format Warper I mean Force of Will and have one in your hand with a blue card to discard you will quickly lose the game. Granted Helm Line is a lot saner than painter stone, and since it is slower (turn 2 is not common though doable) you can potentially draw an answer in the few turns you have before helm comes done. "
I dont agree on this one as Leyline is an anti re-animation card it stops so many broken things but by itself does nothing to win you the game.
Helm on the other hand is only ever used as part of the combo for an instant win.
I strongly agree with Paul on the Mystic Tutor/Enlightened Tutor though, they are too good its like running eight Moat's or Doomsdays. Adding these to the banned list will have a big effect on the so called top end decks.
actually trust me doomsday is an old card that has been abused in more then one combo including storm decks. I didnt know this untill i started reading about all of the abusive ways to use doomsday after this last tribal tourney and trust me what i did with it was actually pretty mild.
The reason the 3 creatures were mentioned is simply the fact remains that they are more or less only ever played with the intent to cheat them into play and its alot easier to ban them rather then every possible way to cheat them into play.
Also by banning them you weaken the overall power of the cards that cheat creatures into play.
And speaking of such cards i really do believe that Sneak attack really does deserve the ban hammer as its soley ment (from a design perspective no less) to only cheat multiple creatures into play. And lets be honest here if ya'll hate red elementals.dec then imagine sneaky dragons or drazi...ya no one wants to face that.
all archons are pricy they tend to be on par with angels.
Nice thing about possibly splashing black...extirpate, still sucks but clears out emrakul
Problem with the Sanity Grinding deck: Emrakul.
OK Here is what I'm leaning towards right now.
New Bannings
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Mystical Tutor
Helm of Obedience
Grindstone
Sneak Attack
Emrakul
Progenitus
Doomsday
Watch List
Enlightened Tutor
Sneak Attack
Natural Order
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Hypergenesis
Hermit Druid
Sensei's Divining Top
Aether Vial
I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye on the "light touch" on the banned list.
I'd suggest.
Mystical tutor (the backbone of many combo decks)
Doomsday (keeping 5 cards isn't tribal)
sneak attack (on the fence about this one)
hypergenisis (on the fence about this one)
Natural order (just banning progenitus might work better, NO going for other green guys is a non issue)
hermit druid (if you wanna see unfun, that's the definition)
glimpse of nature (elf combo isn't ever fun)
grindstone (no purpose other than combo)
helm of obedience (no tribal purpose)
iona shield of elmira (i've never seen this card hardcasted in tribal)
those would be my 10 if i were forced to pick 10. I truly think natural order might be the wrong target. Without progenitus it lacks an instant game ender, all the other green targets are easy to deal with in comparison, and are dead cards in an opening hand.
I say again I am against the idea of banning cards in this format. I think what is banned already is a mistake. I think the concept of enforcing a CODE of conduct instead makes sense for a small PRE. If it grows to 30-40 players+ then maybe that won't work but when the most new comers you get in a week is 2-3 the rules should be easy enough to enforce. I watched today's episodes instead of playing (as I have often done) because I know my decks aren't up to snuff with the top tier shoehorns but nothing like that showed up. We had elves by a new comer and Bringers (by LOurs), several people brought soldier varients AJ brought his typical original idea deck. Mel brought her usual original idea deck. It was so civilized and every day each match could have been a casual get together. There were a few decks I didn't like but that is more about taste.
The problem with ban lists is they require a seriously delicate touch. It is easy to upset the balance by taking out a card that while it seems unfair and broken itself keeps 8-9 other cards in check. I don't think anyone here (no offense to any) is really qualified to give a truely balanced list. Better I think to identify the truly broken classic combos and just ask that people NOT play them on pain of being left out of the running. In fact I had a thought that there could be a more hard and fast rule that concession (or self defeat) aside a game could not end before turn 4 without the winner being dqed.
I will note that the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo deck that Jhoke won with (3-0) today is a great example of why Enlightened Tutor is such a strong card but even so, Naturalize, Oblivion Ring etc are typical and good answers to that. So it comes down to play skill, luck and deck building. What we want in other words.
How about Energy Field and Wheel of Sun and Moon? Unnatural Selection and Spirit Mirror?
My use of the word 'Moat.' was in answer to 'How do you stop Progenitus?' I absolutely don't think it should be banned. Hell, I build a lot of my strategies around it, for and against. I've won because of it and been beaten by it. I firmly believe it should stay part of the format, and as I typed earlier, I favor a light touch on the banned list and a common understanding amongst the players not to shoehorn in classic I-win combos.
Flippers used moat as an example of a card to tutor for with enlightened tutor. He talked about a deck having 8 moats. If you want to run 1/2 of your available card slots dedicated to moat and finding moat, then that's your choice. It leaves you very few playable card slots left to play anything else.
Anyway, back to my post about enlightened tutor. If you've banned all the combo artfacts, than what's left to enlightened tutor for that's broken? I'd like to see the ability to hunt for enchantments that can have great synergy with your deck. I don't think that's broken or unfair. If someone finds a way to break it we can always ban it from that point forward. I think we need to be careful not to go totally overboard here and have a 100 card long ban list. In all honesty there's probably less than 10 cards outside of the wizards list that could use a banning, let's just keep a cool head here.
In paper. Not online.
For me Top is an issue for what it does in terms of consistency and how much it makes a game drag.
And yes, delays in games has been a factor for why Top was banned by Wizards. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2
Not that I've noticed and really is that a legitimate reason to ban anything? (There are lots and lots of cards that take time to process...shall we ban allies with ETB effects?) The time limits ensure that a player can't just hog all the time, unlike in paper where everyone shares the time limit and slow play has to be called on by a judge.
1. not everyone runs green
2. top takes up far more time than its worth
Moat was an example of how to stop progenitus not a card that needed banning
The obvious answer to top is Krosan Grip. Works like a charm.
I dont have a problem with Moat it was just an example.
so now running moat is considered a combo? Are we trying to remove non tribal combo, or are we asking what cards people don't like playing against? Every deck I've entered with has an answer or work around for moat or other troublesome enchantments. You might say enlightened tutor also grabs broken artifacts, well aren't those troublesome ones like grindstone and helm getting banned? If they're banned, what are you so scared of it getting? Colours like green, and to a lesser degree have to use enchantments to help power their decks. With all the nasty artifacts being banned, what are we afraid of e-tutor grabbing? Red would see a huge bonus to see green or white's ability to more effectively play enchantments neutered. They could continue to play 20 creatures + 2 burn spells just the same as they always did.
Just be careful how over the top you go with banning cards. I understand getting rid of some of the combo only elements. It would be a shame to lose some pieces that also enable cool ground breaking decks too though, and I feel that's the direction this is being steered into.
By easily beatable, I do not mean that all decks can deal with it. What I do mean is that there are a number of strategies (mass destruction, fast decks, even Clone), which can keep Progenitus from being a game ender. I think Emrakul and Iona are much worse than Progenitus. On my sliding scale of powerful/too powerful it is on the edge of powerful.
The problem isn't Progenitus, it is cheating it into play early and permanently.
Look - I have no problem with any of these cards getting banned, though I think Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor are the two that unfortunately have the most legitimate uses and the greatest potential for breaking the format. I think Top is just as powerful for setting up a deck to win as either of these cards, but it does it in a consistent and methodical approach. Top is very difficult to eliminate without counterspells (same can be said for Mystical Tutor and whatever it searches for).
Just my opinions.
"Helm isn't the broken part of the combo imho Leyline is. Comes into play free if you start with it and unless you are running Format Warper I mean Force of Will and have one in your hand with a blue card to discard you will quickly lose the game. Granted Helm Line is a lot saner than painter stone, and since it is slower (turn 2 is not common though doable) you can potentially draw an answer in the few turns you have before helm comes done. "
I dont agree on this one as Leyline is an anti re-animation card it stops so many broken things but by itself does nothing to win you the game.
Helm on the other hand is only ever used as part of the combo for an instant win.
I strongly agree with Paul on the Mystic Tutor/Enlightened Tutor though, they are too good its like running eight Moat's or Doomsdays. Adding these to the banned list will have a big effect on the so called top end decks.
actually trust me doomsday is an old card that has been abused in more then one combo including storm decks. I didnt know this untill i started reading about all of the abusive ways to use doomsday after this last tribal tourney and trust me what i did with it was actually pretty mild.
enlightened tutor is kind limiting, i'd take that off the list, but leave mystical tutor in.
i used to play a singleton doomsday in a domain deck back in the day. It was fun going down to a draco and tribal flames...
without the eldrazi doomsday isnt really as strong
very true. There are cards like Dramatic Entrance but its fairly limited in my point
The reason the 3 creatures were mentioned is simply the fact remains that they are more or less only ever played with the intent to cheat them into play and its alot easier to ban them rather then every possible way to cheat them into play.
Also by banning them you weaken the overall power of the cards that cheat creatures into play.
And speaking of such cards i really do believe that Sneak attack really does deserve the ban hammer as its soley ment (from a design perspective no less) to only cheat multiple creatures into play. And lets be honest here if ya'll hate red elementals.dec then imagine sneaky dragons or drazi...ya no one wants to face that.