Tooth and nail yeah not sure how that one slippped my mind too many ways to have this single card just flat end games when its cast entwined and any deck that's played it has built the deck with exactly that in mind. Now is it fast enough or not to be concidered overly abusive is a subject for debate. (i think earliest it could come out entwined is t4?)
I once again restate that Iona as printed was never designed as a "casual" card or for fun, but purely for combo based decks or to be cheated into play to lock down an opponent and flat win by denying them the ability to more or less play the game.
(Also no need to argue what decks a given card have or have not been in. It's rather pointless when the intent of playing the given card is pretty clear)
Banning on cunduct hits way too close to grey area and only creates he said she said situtations and also continues the player A is allowed to do this or that but player B is not.
Regardless of the reasoning why. It only creates non uniform field of play. (just to use my deck listed here as an example swap around some lands in the deck and change my tribe to eldrazi and it becomes legal under this suggestion but the deck could play over nearly the same and people would still feel the same over the loss even though i would have then used my tribe as the win condition)
Switching to Legacy would be a start. That is also something we could lobby wizards for. Actually, if I could ask wizards for anything, it would be to be able to customize games more. I should be able to ask for tribal extended, or a block singleton, or whatever.
BTW, I don't hold it against anyone, but I consider the Dual Lands broken. I wouldn't advocate banning them, but in my world mana fixing comes with drawbacks dammit... ;)
Good idea for a place start (even if i dont agree doing EVERY card ever banned but i can say i see the logic behind the idea) and Trust me when i say no one is trying to make tribal go the route of Prismatic.
However while I was at work I got to thinking what we REALLY need to do before we get overly serious about a banned list is define what it is that we want the format to be like and work a set of clear rules around that as if we were creating a brand new format.
This way we can avoid problems of legality and players being harrased for playing legitimate decks.
unless you're playing black, I guess. It also costs 1 less, so it might be better in some decks.
I hope people don't just tweak old standard decks for this new extended, and some other stuff appears. For instance, Goblins were never quite powerful enough to see play in lorwyn standard, but maybe warren instigator would be a big enough shot in the arm?
I think great sable stag is a pretty solid card to watch for price fluctuations.
Josh I'm very sorry that you couldn't make the trip. I was so very much looking forward seeing you on the mothership site with the cup in your hands. But at least you know that your work is being appreciated. Puremtgo is very important for the community as it is "by the community for the community" and that makes you automatically a very important person.
Regarding the card: Well yeah, another very nice casual card which will see a lot of play in the Casual Room; I'm definately impressed in that regard. There is no rule saying that each and every card must be tournament worthy, and I'm sure this one will make a lot of casual players happy.
LE
EDIT: Those 4 Decree of Justices in the example deck look like overkill by the way.
Yeah I am not in favor of any banning of cards. Behavior might make more sense but that does take some creativity out of the game as I think finding unusual combos and using them with odd tribes can be great fun.
Cool card Josh, Should fit nicely in the Archon's tribal deck and looks like it probably wants some counterspell companions for best use. (To prevent said shenanigans with Footing, Halo can be disenchanted so not as much a worry, and true believer can be exiled.) 7cmc is fairly stiff for white, I'm thinking fixers would be useful. Or perhaps a cheat. (early Exhume?)
When it comes to bannings, I advocate a light touch. A long ban list kills formats, as Prismatic learned to its cost. I much prefer to go by the mindset adopted by Legacy players outside of the big money tournaments: Don't bring the nukes to a knife fight. 3 tickets isn't big money, and the prize has been deliberately kept small to keep the worst excesses out. Perhaps there's room for a splinter tournament, an 'anything goes' break-the-format-wide-open abusefest? It'd probably never fire, but its existence would provide an alternative.
I concur on Doomsday and Mystical Tutor.
Natural Order... Hm. Possibly. The hydra it brings is not unbeatable, but the precedent is a concern. Do we ban Wargate, Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling and all the other 'search your decks for a fatty and put it on the battlefield' cards? I'd put it on the watch list.
Helm of obedience: This is one of quite a few 'mill your whole library' options like Painter's Servant-Grindstone or Traumatize-Haunting Echoes. Again, an exercise in line drawing.
Bazaar - already banned.
Goblin Recruiter - A fair point, but this can be used to reck your opponent if you then take out his mana base. Should we put Dwarven Recruiter on notice as well? I'd say Goblin Ringleader was the more egregious, Goblin Chariot plus ancestral recall all too often. Most people avoid running goblins, so we tend not to see the worst excesses.
Iona: I suggest taking a look at last weeks' article, in which I ran two in a deck which could only get her on to the field of play at 8 or 9 mana. (The deck ran a brace of Emeria, so 7 plains and that if someone forced me to discard provides the alternative.) So no, she doesn't just see play in reanimator.
Emrakul... A hardcast Emrakul is practically unstoppable in a way that the other E-legends can't match.
How about instead of banning cards, we ban conduct? 'If you win by means of a combo irrelevant to your tribe, your opponent earns a win.'.
In one fell swoop we get rid of the undesirable behaviour altogether by turning combo from an automatic win to an automatic loss.
Depends on your definition of 'cheat': The deck used Fist of Suns and Crystal Quarry on an 8-post/Urzatron mana base backed up by Expedition Map as its main means of dropping T4 Emrakul, and subsequent Eldrazi. 5 mana filtered through a land and a 3-mana artifact in order to get the hardcast effect.
I think we should follow in addition to the current in game list for tribal we should follow the Legacy banned list and also that of Extended (current and past) which looks something like this. Please ignore any duplicates from the in game list I'm at work so cant view it at present. Note this list also includes cards that are not online yet but could be in ME4.
Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain - This card dosent really need to be banned for tribal
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor - Note this is the best combo card in tribal if you think about it from a spell point of view
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Hypergenesis
Sword of the Meek
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Depths
Survival of the Fittest
Lions Eye Diamond
Goblin Lacky
Natural Order
Grindstone
Helm of Obediance
Enlightened Tutor - I think this should be on the list as well as its very powerful in the tribal format.
You see Extended as a format that casual players play intentionally? I realize that I only know my area, but I have literally never encountered a human who intentionally built a deck extended-legal not for an extended event. Casual games I've been a part of - hundreds, with dozens of players - are all either "anything goes/Legacy" (with the implied agreement that you're not playing something too brutal) or Standard, and even then overwhelmingly the former. It's possible that it may be popular in some areas, but literally zero people I have ever met play it casually - _ever_ - and tournament players only play it when they have no choice. It's basically a fiat format, one that exists only because they have events for it. It's not a _bad_ format, just one that humans almost never independently decide to play. I surprised that any casual player would even care at all, simply because of the many I know well and the many more I've met, I don't think anyone has ever expressed any actual desire to play extended-legal decks against other extended-legal decks. (That's not to say that people don't build and use decks that are incidentally extended-legal, particularly newish players who just don't own old cards; it's just that nobody gets together for a game of casual extended.)
I don't play in this tournament, and probably never will, so feel free to ignore this if it isn't viable or has already been ruled out:
Why not simply allow sideboards to deal at least a bit with all of these combos and then just play the games in Classic? In the hopefully rare event that someone would like to challenge opponent's tribal legality, they can request that after the game their opponent draw her entire deck and then reveal her hand (or screenshot and email to tournament director). Alternatively you could rely entirely on in-game enforcement: A suspicious player could just board in a card that lets him search his opponent's deck (e.g., Sadistic Sacrament) and have some sort of long term ban for players found to be in violation.
The idea of a one game round robin format would also work. Just concede if you don't like your opponent's combo. Also, I am not sure if this is logical but a combo deck that "fizzles" 25% of the time will win 75% of its GAMES but will win 84.4% of its MATCHES, so broken decks might be less likely to win the tournament.
How about a change to the Tribal Apocalypse format? Instead of playing matches, just play individual games. That way every player will play (almost) every other player. If you face a turn 2 combo deck the game will be over quickly and you don't have to worry about playing it again. Plus that way you're deck is exposed to the widest variety of decks to play against. Instead of plying 2-3 matches against 2-3 decks, you will play 6-12 games against all different decks. Some match-ups will go well, some won't. Sometimes the shuffler will go against you, sometimes for you. But the best decks should still rise to the top with enough games.
Tooth and nail yeah not sure how that one slippped my mind too many ways to have this single card just flat end games when its cast entwined and any deck that's played it has built the deck with exactly that in mind. Now is it fast enough or not to be concidered overly abusive is a subject for debate. (i think earliest it could come out entwined is t4?)
I once again restate that Iona as printed was never designed as a "casual" card or for fun, but purely for combo based decks or to be cheated into play to lock down an opponent and flat win by denying them the ability to more or less play the game.
(Also no need to argue what decks a given card have or have not been in. It's rather pointless when the intent of playing the given card is pretty clear)
Banning on cunduct hits way too close to grey area and only creates he said she said situtations and also continues the player A is allowed to do this or that but player B is not.
Regardless of the reasoning why. It only creates non uniform field of play. (just to use my deck listed here as an example swap around some lands in the deck and change my tribe to eldrazi and it becomes legal under this suggestion but the deck could play over nearly the same and people would still feel the same over the loss even though i would have then used my tribe as the win condition)
So sad for Alara Packs
Card Price Tables: ALA 0
Mana Drain should be banned because it's a stupid card, plain and simple.
Switching to Legacy would be a start. That is also something we could lobby wizards for. Actually, if I could ask wizards for anything, it would be to be able to customize games more. I should be able to ask for tribal extended, or a block singleton, or whatever.
BTW, I don't hold it against anyone, but I consider the Dual Lands broken. I wouldn't advocate banning them, but in my world mana fixing comes with drawbacks dammit... ;)
I like most of that list. I also agree that mana drain shouldn't be there. I also don't believe gush is broken in tribal without combo being large.
Good idea for a place start (even if i dont agree doing EVERY card ever banned but i can say i see the logic behind the idea) and Trust me when i say no one is trying to make tribal go the route of Prismatic.
However while I was at work I got to thinking what we REALLY need to do before we get overly serious about a banned list is define what it is that we want the format to be like and work a set of clear rules around that as if we were creating a brand new format.
This way we can avoid problems of legality and players being harrased for playing legitimate decks.
unless you're playing black, I guess. It also costs 1 less, so it might be better in some decks.
I hope people don't just tweak old standard decks for this new extended, and some other stuff appears. For instance, Goblins were never quite powerful enough to see play in lorwyn standard, but maybe warren instigator would be a big enough shot in the arm?
I think great sable stag is a pretty solid card to watch for price fluctuations.
Josh I'm very sorry that you couldn't make the trip. I was so very much looking forward seeing you on the mothership site with the cup in your hands. But at least you know that your work is being appreciated. Puremtgo is very important for the community as it is "by the community for the community" and that makes you automatically a very important person.
Regarding the card: Well yeah, another very nice casual card which will see a lot of play in the Casual Room; I'm definately impressed in that regard. There is no rule saying that each and every card must be tournament worthy, and I'm sure this one will make a lot of casual players happy.
LE
EDIT: Those 4 Decree of Justices in the example deck look like overkill by the way.
Well, Everlasting Torment just got obseleted by the new red Leyline.
I concur. I'm surprised some of this stuff gets past the editors, to be honest.
Yeah I am not in favor of any banning of cards. Behavior might make more sense but that does take some creativity out of the game as I think finding unusual combos and using them with odd tribes can be great fun.
Cool card Josh, Should fit nicely in the Archon's tribal deck and looks like it probably wants some counterspell companions for best use. (To prevent said shenanigans with Footing, Halo can be disenchanted so not as much a worry, and true believer can be exiled.) 7cmc is fairly stiff for white, I'm thinking fixers would be useful. Or perhaps a cheat. (early Exhume?)
When it comes to bannings, I advocate a light touch. A long ban list kills formats, as Prismatic learned to its cost. I much prefer to go by the mindset adopted by Legacy players outside of the big money tournaments: Don't bring the nukes to a knife fight. 3 tickets isn't big money, and the prize has been deliberately kept small to keep the worst excesses out. Perhaps there's room for a splinter tournament, an 'anything goes' break-the-format-wide-open abusefest? It'd probably never fire, but its existence would provide an alternative.
I concur on Doomsday and Mystical Tutor.
Natural Order... Hm. Possibly. The hydra it brings is not unbeatable, but the precedent is a concern. Do we ban Wargate, Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling and all the other 'search your decks for a fatty and put it on the battlefield' cards? I'd put it on the watch list.
Helm of obedience: This is one of quite a few 'mill your whole library' options like Painter's Servant-Grindstone or Traumatize-Haunting Echoes. Again, an exercise in line drawing.
Bazaar - already banned.
Goblin Recruiter - A fair point, but this can be used to reck your opponent if you then take out his mana base. Should we put Dwarven Recruiter on notice as well? I'd say Goblin Ringleader was the more egregious, Goblin Chariot plus ancestral recall all too often. Most people avoid running goblins, so we tend not to see the worst excesses.
Iona: I suggest taking a look at last weeks' article, in which I ran two in a deck which could only get her on to the field of play at 8 or 9 mana. (The deck ran a brace of Emeria, so 7 plains and that if someone forced me to discard provides the alternative.) So no, she doesn't just see play in reanimator.
Emrakul... A hardcast Emrakul is practically unstoppable in a way that the other E-legends can't match.
How about instead of banning cards, we ban conduct? 'If you win by means of a combo irrelevant to your tribe, your opponent earns a win.'.
In one fell swoop we get rid of the undesirable behaviour altogether by turning combo from an automatic win to an automatic loss.
Depends on your definition of 'cheat': The deck used Fist of Suns and Crystal Quarry on an 8-post/Urzatron mana base backed up by Expedition Map as its main means of dropping T4 Emrakul, and subsequent Eldrazi. 5 mana filtered through a land and a 3-mana artifact in order to get the hardcast effect.
To be precise, the reasons can be found here: http://puremtgo.com/articles/art-tribal-wars-rogue-play
One-half of the debate Lord Erman and I had on if the format should be sanctioned or not.
As an aside, those advocating a massive banned list should remember what happened to Prismatic.
nevermind...
A use for targeting your self. If your oppeonts creature have some ninja abillity (hit you for effect), you could remove that.
Yeah I agree dual lands should never be banned, that's going way over the top.
I think we should follow in addition to the current in game list for tribal we should follow the Legacy banned list and also that of Extended (current and past) which looks something like this. Please ignore any duplicates from the in game list I'm at work so cant view it at present. Note this list also includes cards that are not online yet but could be in ME4.
Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain - This card dosent really need to be banned for tribal
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor - Note this is the best combo card in tribal if you think about it from a spell point of view
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Hypergenesis
Sword of the Meek
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Depths
Survival of the Fittest
Lions Eye Diamond
Goblin Lacky
Natural Order
Grindstone
Helm of Obediance
Enlightened Tutor - I think this should be on the list as well as its very powerful in the tribal format.
I didn't really even do more than read the card...BUT I LOVE ARCHONS!!!!!!
Don't worry dual lands arent going anywhere...ever.
You see Extended as a format that casual players play intentionally? I realize that I only know my area, but I have literally never encountered a human who intentionally built a deck extended-legal not for an extended event. Casual games I've been a part of - hundreds, with dozens of players - are all either "anything goes/Legacy" (with the implied agreement that you're not playing something too brutal) or Standard, and even then overwhelmingly the former. It's possible that it may be popular in some areas, but literally zero people I have ever met play it casually - _ever_ - and tournament players only play it when they have no choice. It's basically a fiat format, one that exists only because they have events for it. It's not a _bad_ format, just one that humans almost never independently decide to play. I surprised that any casual player would even care at all, simply because of the many I know well and the many more I've met, I don't think anyone has ever expressed any actual desire to play extended-legal decks against other extended-legal decks. (That's not to say that people don't build and use decks that are incidentally extended-legal, particularly newish players who just don't own old cards; it's just that nobody gets together for a game of casual extended.)
Ban dual lands? Are you on LSD? I've never heard of dual lands as combo enablers before, that just reeks of sour grapes.
I don't play in this tournament, and probably never will, so feel free to ignore this if it isn't viable or has already been ruled out:
Why not simply allow sideboards to deal at least a bit with all of these combos and then just play the games in Classic? In the hopefully rare event that someone would like to challenge opponent's tribal legality, they can request that after the game their opponent draw her entire deck and then reveal her hand (or screenshot and email to tournament director). Alternatively you could rely entirely on in-game enforcement: A suspicious player could just board in a card that lets him search his opponent's deck (e.g., Sadistic Sacrament) and have some sort of long term ban for players found to be in violation.
The idea of a one game round robin format would also work. Just concede if you don't like your opponent's combo. Also, I am not sure if this is logical but a combo deck that "fizzles" 25% of the time will win 75% of its GAMES but will win 84.4% of its MATCHES, so broken decks might be less likely to win the tournament.
How about a change to the Tribal Apocalypse format? Instead of playing matches, just play individual games. That way every player will play (almost) every other player. If you face a turn 2 combo deck the game will be over quickly and you don't have to worry about playing it again. Plus that way you're deck is exposed to the widest variety of decks to play against. Instead of plying 2-3 matches against 2-3 decks, you will play 6-12 games against all different decks. Some match-ups will go well, some won't. Sometimes the shuffler will go against you, sometimes for you. But the best decks should still rise to the top with enough games.