Black: Order of the sacred torch,Exorcist,Northern Paladin,Nantuko blightcutter,Devout Lightcaster,Celestial purge,Purge,Light of Day,Elephant Grass,Compost,Obsidian acolyte,Righetous war
Any color: Oona queen of fae,COP's,Protection, Sphere of___,
Now keep in mind that's only blue and black being named and i didnt even begin to go over every combo for thoes colors as there was plenty more to be had just showing the few somewhat ugly ones at first glance.
Would I sweep my whole board to clear it of a game winner? sure in a heart beat. I <3 sweepers for that very reason. As a result I usually don't overcommit my board for that very reason. In fact if anything I tend to hold back more than I should versus people who probably avoid sweepers for the same reasons I love them.
I am not sure where it stops is what I am getting at with the ban list. Already what is banned seems excessive. What has been proposed by those with specific hatreds/agenda seems like a very bad idea. I don't really care because I have pretty much avoided all the controversy by not playing. Yes that is right. My solution to the problem isn't to ban stuff but to not play.
I have been told by those who know my decks that they compete favorably against most of the field but I prefer not to face the coin flip possibility (facing the shoehorn decks I can't win against at all.) Particularly since those occasions tend to be very unfun.
well we all cant have our way on the ban list. Otherwise I would ban all the expensive cards. It sucks losing to $5 cards all the time or when a land in your opponents deck costs more than your whole deck. But I dont. So lets focus on the list Im leaning towards and save this weeks deck comments for the article about them.
I'd like to say this ahead of time. I hold no will will to your deck infact i even said that it showed that i should have added sumthing into i mentioned to shard pre tourney.
However you do hafta admit that Tutor saved your tail in game 3 vs me :)
No worries wasn't accusing you of a double standard but the PRE group as a whole has been pulling it.
Also all the colorless answers u just gave are sweepers, now while technically yes thats an answer O.o um err..do we really want to have to sacerfice our whole board to answer a single card? O.o
And you're right there will always be spikes (hell a self admitted spike) You can at least tone down the most abusive combo's that are blantaly out of the scope of the format.
Not saying flavor because even in normal game player equipping a wall is out of flavor but at least what we can do is our best to prevent the format becomming the best combo wins type of format and make room for both pure aggro decks as well as hybrid control.
It was not an all encompassing, game-breaking, kill you on T3 combo of any kind. It was soldiers backed by damage prevention if the game went long. The deck was geared to be aggressive and hopefully beat your face in before I even needed to use Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon. I used my evasive creatures to deal damage early and repeatedly, hoping to finish quickly or go out with a big swing from Captain of the Watch. The idea was simple, get the beats down fast and hope to get an Energy field if the game went long. Not so different than a dropped Moat to kill ground beaters; or a rat that sweeps the board; or a fog that stops a big attack. Mine just stuck around longer and stopped more than critters.
A simple solution to beating my Energy Field/Wheel tech (or Winter Orb, Moat, Top, etc...) would have been some dedicated hate. They make a ton of it and in many different varieties. Hell, some even destroy more than one at a time or remove them from the game entirely. Not all decks are going to be able to handle artifacts and enchantments well but you have to build your decks to compensate for that IMO. If your deck can handle them then you don't have much of an excuse if something hits the table that you don't like.
Since I began playing Classic Tribal I've noticed that many decks do often contain many nasty artifacts and enchantments that I will need to deal with. I've learned to build my decks accordingly. Like another person mentioned earlier, I came from playing in Legacy/Classic where combo is king and you have to learn how to work around it or lose. There is no sideboard for Tribal so you have to work around what your opponents will likely be using in your main deck. Sometimes that means sacrificing one thing for another.
From my, admittedly brief, experience with Classic Tribal I have found that most often you are going to run into two kind of decks.
1) An aggro deck that supports most of its creature base with evasion/protection spells and/or lots of removal.
2) An aggro deck that will contain more spells that produce an alternate win condition or a very favorable game state. Since it can't "combo" out as well as it can in classic/legacy format, the deck will use other means to piss you off. This tends to come in the form of big spells or artifacts/enchantments.
You are likely going to have answers comparable to theirs in match-up one because not a lot of things are going to hit the board other than creatures. You know you are going to see at least 20 of them so creature removal is a given. It's when you run into someone who has a deck like the second example, that most problems arise. If you don't have the right cards in your deck to handle the "other" threats you might face, it could result in a loss for you. So with this in mind, it becomes even more important to have answers for cards like Energy Field and such, especially when you are using colors that can support them. Sometimes they can be a dead card but hey, Moat makes creatures dead cards if they don't fly or have any useful abilities. For you mono red/black players I'm sorry... win fast.
There definitely shouldn't be bans on cards that have easy answers to. You just have to keep these things in mind when you are making your deck.
I used the enlightened tutor a total of 2 times in the 7 games I played. I used it once to fetch an Oblivion Ring and once to fetch a Wheel of Sun and Moon. It was a non-factor in most of my games as I ended up drawing into Energy Field/Wheel most of the time or taking a mulligan to get a desired hand.
Come on I didn't even win all of my games with that bit of tech down. Any good enchantment removal would've stopped those shenanigans cold. I learned early on, especially from playing guys like you and endless, that if I'm running a color with enchantment/artifact removal, I play it. And usually a good amount of it with all to take care of the moats and orbs that I've ran into so much. It's almost stupid not to run that kind of hate because almost everyone uses them in some form. So no, I don't believe Energy Field or Wheel of Sun and moon should be banned at all.
I have to agree with you on this. I like to use the top and I've considered using it several times. To want it banned it because it slows you down is just silly. If that is the case then we need to ban Brainstorm, Ponder, and all those copy/paste elf decks that take 15 minutes to finish making tokens and what not. Banning too many cards, in my opinion, is just bad news.
as far as hermit druid I can't edit the list i posted but It's easy to see how he would quickly get out of control. Im sure most are familiar with the turn 2 or 3 Hasty sutured ghoul for the win.
I'm unsure what other combo's painter's servant would be good in except possibly persecute that shifting sky would also not enable. Hence the removal of grindstone over painter's servant at the time being. If you could give examples of other such abusive interactions I will definitely take them into account and give a look at reconsidering.
Disk, Explosives, Stone all good noncolored answers. Also splashing for an off color solution isn't unheard of. No reason to say it is all or nothing when that is really not the case.
I don't see there being any point to wanting this format to be anything but what it is. It isn't going to change. Adding a banned list will not stop people from bringing spiky decks to this in the hopes of crushing dreams and getting 3 tix. Even if there was NOTHING on the line some people would have to do that. I say let them. They will get bored and stop eventually as the casual players stop coming.
As far as the double standard goes don't even try to accuse me of that because I am the one who has been against it from the beginning which is why I supported you when you were being hailed as the next jackass. So chill with that.
****sidenote about the login system.*******
Oh and not a fan of being unable to login to post when unintentionally logged out by some mysterious process. The message: "You are not authorized to post" is really hostile. Someone Jamuraa or what not should fix that.
Obviously mono red or mono black don't have enchantment answers. That wasn't the point. The ability to get key enchantments is what helps green keep in balance with those decks. You can't neuter green and then leave other colours untouched and keep a balanced game state.
hermit druid is the nastiest combo out there. Does a druid deck that doesn't rely on his combo ever play him?
RE: grindstone: Without painter have you ever seen grindstone played? Painter has been played in super fun decks using creatures which played on the colour basis.
really ? what answers does mono black or red have to a resolved enchantment that they would even imagine playing? Bottom line either the combos are a problem or a not. And it's the double standards that plagues this PRE keeps plenty of players from even wanting to try the event.
Either rules work or they don't the number of players is irrelevant.
Also like i said earlier im one of thoes types of people that flat out HATE bannings but when i see what you guys want this format to be and what it is i can easily see the moves we need to make to have that happen from a rules view point.
"helm of obedience (no tribal purpose)"
Actually it has a great deal of tribal purpose however the problem here is that if u ban its counter part (leyline) then you open up a much larger pandora's box because the rest of the simular answers are much more narrow thus why the ban hammer hits the helm and not leyline
Of the 3 nonchangeling archons prior to this, we have costs of 9 on the original and 5 on the subsequent two. This falls neatly in the middle, and continues their general theme of punishing aggression.
Alright so grindstone not banned; painters servant is banned
Naming Blue:Llawan Cephalid Empress,Spinal villan,Jaya,Possesed Aven,Active volcano,Pyroblast,quirion dryad,mold adder,gainsay.
Black: Order of the sacred torch,Exorcist,Northern Paladin,Nantuko blightcutter,Devout Lightcaster,Celestial purge,Purge,Light of Day,Elephant Grass,Compost,Obsidian acolyte,Righetous war
Any color: Oona queen of fae,COP's,Protection, Sphere of___,
Now keep in mind that's only blue and black being named and i didnt even begin to go over every combo for thoes colors as there was plenty more to be had just showing the few somewhat ugly ones at first glance.
Would I sweep my whole board to clear it of a game winner? sure in a heart beat. I <3 sweepers for that very reason. As a result I usually don't overcommit my board for that very reason. In fact if anything I tend to hold back more than I should versus people who probably avoid sweepers for the same reasons I love them.
I am not sure where it stops is what I am getting at with the ban list. Already what is banned seems excessive. What has been proposed by those with specific hatreds/agenda seems like a very bad idea. I don't really care because I have pretty much avoided all the controversy by not playing. Yes that is right. My solution to the problem isn't to ban stuff but to not play.
I have been told by those who know my decks that they compete favorably against most of the field but I prefer not to face the coin flip possibility (facing the shoehorn decks I can't win against at all.) Particularly since those occasions tend to be very unfun.
well we all cant have our way on the ban list. Otherwise I would ban all the expensive cards. It sucks losing to $5 cards all the time or when a land in your opponents deck costs more than your whole deck. But I dont. So lets focus on the list Im leaning towards and save this weeks deck comments for the article about them.
I'd like to say this ahead of time. I hold no will will to your deck infact i even said that it showed that i should have added sumthing into i mentioned to shard pre tourney.
However you do hafta admit that Tutor saved your tail in game 3 vs me :)
No worries wasn't accusing you of a double standard but the PRE group as a whole has been pulling it.
Also all the colorless answers u just gave are sweepers, now while technically yes thats an answer O.o um err..do we really want to have to sacerfice our whole board to answer a single card? O.o
And you're right there will always be spikes (hell a self admitted spike) You can at least tone down the most abusive combo's that are blantaly out of the scope of the format.
Not saying flavor because even in normal game player equipping a wall is out of flavor but at least what we can do is our best to prevent the format becomming the best combo wins type of format and make room for both pure aggro decks as well as hybrid control.
It was not an all encompassing, game-breaking, kill you on T3 combo of any kind. It was soldiers backed by damage prevention if the game went long. The deck was geared to be aggressive and hopefully beat your face in before I even needed to use Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon. I used my evasive creatures to deal damage early and repeatedly, hoping to finish quickly or go out with a big swing from Captain of the Watch. The idea was simple, get the beats down fast and hope to get an Energy field if the game went long. Not so different than a dropped Moat to kill ground beaters; or a rat that sweeps the board; or a fog that stops a big attack. Mine just stuck around longer and stopped more than critters.
A simple solution to beating my Energy Field/Wheel tech (or Winter Orb, Moat, Top, etc...) would have been some dedicated hate. They make a ton of it and in many different varieties. Hell, some even destroy more than one at a time or remove them from the game entirely. Not all decks are going to be able to handle artifacts and enchantments well but you have to build your decks to compensate for that IMO. If your deck can handle them then you don't have much of an excuse if something hits the table that you don't like.
Since I began playing Classic Tribal I've noticed that many decks do often contain many nasty artifacts and enchantments that I will need to deal with. I've learned to build my decks accordingly. Like another person mentioned earlier, I came from playing in Legacy/Classic where combo is king and you have to learn how to work around it or lose. There is no sideboard for Tribal so you have to work around what your opponents will likely be using in your main deck. Sometimes that means sacrificing one thing for another.
From my, admittedly brief, experience with Classic Tribal I have found that most often you are going to run into two kind of decks.
1) An aggro deck that supports most of its creature base with evasion/protection spells and/or lots of removal.
2) An aggro deck that will contain more spells that produce an alternate win condition or a very favorable game state. Since it can't "combo" out as well as it can in classic/legacy format, the deck will use other means to piss you off. This tends to come in the form of big spells or artifacts/enchantments.
You are likely going to have answers comparable to theirs in match-up one because not a lot of things are going to hit the board other than creatures. You know you are going to see at least 20 of them so creature removal is a given. It's when you run into someone who has a deck like the second example, that most problems arise. If you don't have the right cards in your deck to handle the "other" threats you might face, it could result in a loss for you. So with this in mind, it becomes even more important to have answers for cards like Energy Field and such, especially when you are using colors that can support them. Sometimes they can be a dead card but hey, Moat makes creatures dead cards if they don't fly or have any useful abilities. For you mono red/black players I'm sorry... win fast.
There definitely shouldn't be bans on cards that have easy answers to. You just have to keep these things in mind when you are making your deck.
I used the enlightened tutor a total of 2 times in the 7 games I played. I used it once to fetch an Oblivion Ring and once to fetch a Wheel of Sun and Moon. It was a non-factor in most of my games as I ended up drawing into Energy Field/Wheel most of the time or taking a mulligan to get a desired hand.
Come on I didn't even win all of my games with that bit of tech down. Any good enchantment removal would've stopped those shenanigans cold. I learned early on, especially from playing guys like you and endless, that if I'm running a color with enchantment/artifact removal, I play it. And usually a good amount of it with all to take care of the moats and orbs that I've ran into so much. It's almost stupid not to run that kind of hate because almost everyone uses them in some form. So no, I don't believe Energy Field or Wheel of Sun and moon should be banned at all.
I have to agree with you on this. I like to use the top and I've considered using it several times. To want it banned it because it slows you down is just silly. If that is the case then we need to ban Brainstorm, Ponder, and all those copy/paste elf decks that take 15 minutes to finish making tokens and what not. Banning too many cards, in my opinion, is just bad news.
There is also wayfarer and land tax. wayfarer also conveniently searches for tron pieces.
as far as hermit druid I can't edit the list i posted but It's easy to see how he would quickly get out of control. Im sure most are familiar with the turn 2 or 3 Hasty sutured ghoul for the win.
I'm unsure what other combo's painter's servant would be good in except possibly persecute that shifting sky would also not enable. Hence the removal of grindstone over painter's servant at the time being. If you could give examples of other such abusive interactions I will definitely take them into account and give a look at reconsidering.
Wow. Disagree. Strongly.
Disk, Explosives, Stone all good noncolored answers. Also splashing for an off color solution isn't unheard of. No reason to say it is all or nothing when that is really not the case.
I don't see there being any point to wanting this format to be anything but what it is. It isn't going to change. Adding a banned list will not stop people from bringing spiky decks to this in the hopes of crushing dreams and getting 3 tix. Even if there was NOTHING on the line some people would have to do that. I say let them. They will get bored and stop eventually as the casual players stop coming.
As far as the double standard goes don't even try to accuse me of that because I am the one who has been against it from the beginning which is why I supported you when you were being hailed as the next jackass. So chill with that.
****sidenote about the login system.*******
Oh and not a fan of being unable to login to post when unintentionally logged out by some mysterious process. The message: "You are not authorized to post" is really hostile. Someone Jamuraa or what not should fix that.
RE ranth:
Obviously mono red or mono black don't have enchantment answers. That wasn't the point. The ability to get key enchantments is what helps green keep in balance with those decks. You can't neuter green and then leave other colours untouched and keep a balanced game state.
hermit druid is the nastiest combo out there. Does a druid deck that doesn't rely on his combo ever play him?
RE: grindstone: Without painter have you ever seen grindstone played? Painter has been played in super fun decks using creatures which played on the colour basis.
really ? what answers does mono black or red have to a resolved enchantment that they would even imagine playing? Bottom line either the combos are a problem or a not. And it's the double standards that plagues this PRE keeps plenty of players from even wanting to try the event.
Either rules work or they don't the number of players is irrelevant.
Also like i said earlier im one of thoes types of people that flat out HATE bannings but when i see what you guys want this format to be and what it is i can easily see the moves we need to make to have that happen from a rules view point.
"Shard i'd replace grindstone with Painter as painter has just as abusive interactions with other cards not just this artifact."
this will probably be the only time you'll see me saying this and even then it literally hurts me to do so... but...... i agree with Ranth..... ouch
anything Tarantino is good
Shard i'd replace grindstone with Painter as painter has just as abusive interactions with other cards not just this artifact.
I know, but like when are we gonna get white ramp?? sure theres gauntlet tithe and lens, but i want like a white coffers
"helm of obedience (no tribal purpose)"
Actually it has a great deal of tribal purpose however the problem here is that if u ban its counter part (leyline) then you open up a much larger pandora's box because the rest of the simular answers are much more narrow thus why the ban hammer hits the helm and not leyline
Of the 3 nonchangeling archons prior to this, we have costs of 9 on the original and 5 on the subsequent two. This falls neatly in the middle, and continues their general theme of punishing aggression.
Is there a chart for Reveillark??