I know this can be a difficult concept to grasp. Logic is how we want to operate as gamers. Ill-logic there for "does not compute" as Spock would say. But MOST people do not operate purely off of intellect. People also operate off of prejudice, bias, fear, gut instincts, intuition, misclicks, etc and while we would hope they will eventually get past this it is a learning process. When you first started playing Commander were you immediately aware of the "smartest" most logical steps in any given situation or did you need to learn them over time? If your answer is you already knew, then congrats Zvi.
I think it is important (if you want to improve the people you are playing against) to not label them as idiots when it is their behavior you want to change. Patience is key as is a smidge of empathy. Imagine how frustrated they must have felt to be facing yet another Omnath deck.
OK now all that said, I have to give you the instance you provide as being ridiculous. Yes people make bad judgement calls etc but when the clear and present danger is elsewhere that person has obviously learned something wrong about commander.
I have occasionally gone after a weaker positioned player just to clear them out of the way when they were interfering with a plan but kicking someone when they are so obviously down is just immature. Unless that person happens to be AJ_Impy, in which case I refer to Rule Zero.
For right or wrong, the reserved list at least gives you an idea of the direction of paper Magic. We won't see reprints of the Dual Lands, and things like Pact of Negation and Tectonic Edge suggest we won't see Force of Will or Wasteland either unless they can be kept out of Standard. Legacy will just have to live with supply issues.
Legacy is more confusing with Magic Online. Are they going to continue reprinting old cards in Master's Edition sets (the dual lands) to create a supply for new players? Or are they going to restrict the supply to a trickle (Force of Will, Wasteland) that sends prices ever skyward? The unknown is keeping me on the fence right now. I would really like to play Legacy online (and would love to play Vintage), but the prices are holding me back. I don't want to jump in right before a big supply increase, but I also don't want to jump in if the supply never increases and the format withers. I don't expect them to reprint cards if prices hit certain dollar amounts, but I would like to know how they plan to support the format in the future.
Thanks for the videos, Jake. I do appreciate having some of the actual gameplay (as opposed to just the replay recaps); though I know this is probably more difficult, I for one really enjoy it in real time.
Definitely an eventful event this time!
If they haven't played me before, they have no clue how I play. They have no clue what the deck is, only the basic abilities of Omnath and therefore what to expect. If I were to play my deck while Leviathan plays his, we would both be considered equal threats. This is logical and intelligent.
What is NOT logical (and therefore completely and utterly stupid) is that with my Omnath, someone else's Thada Adel, someone else's Zur, and their Geth, they will kill my 1/1 Omnath on my sixth turn with 3 lands, instead of targeting the Adel that's smacked everyone 4 times and stolen 3 mana artifacts, or the Zur that's been getting enchantment after enchantment. Yes, this sort of thing has happened. That is STUPID.
I expect that, on an empty board with 3 random people, I'll get the first attack - probably from everyone. But to target Omnath instead of a *far more dangerous threat*?
I also expect that, anyone playing my Omnath deck will target me forever after. That's also stupid, since my deck going off once does not mean it's still going off again and again ad naseum. Yes, Omnath can get funky, especially the way I play him - but you should ALWAYS be examining the threat levels of players and the board, working off the dangers that be rather than working *purely* off of the fear that may never be.
I do have access to some price lists. Downside is that it lists pretty much everything MTGOTraders has listed - including a lot of old product no longer in stock, (stuff like Odyssey block precons, etc.)that probably have not had price updates for a long time. The list is also really long - many thousands of items. I can sort it, but pulling out the prices of that sort of stuff is a bunch of work. Maybe later.
Wizards did begin printing judge foil copies of the reserve list cards. Someone did complain - presumably collectors or dealers or something. Wizards talked to a lot of people about this a few years ago. They also - I'm sure - talked to their lawyers. In the end, the corporation decided to enforce the reserve list. Almost certainly, the choice was whether the potential profits was greater than the costs of fighting the lawsuits - and there would have been lawsuits.
In the end, the decision was made: reserve list stays. End of story, at least for now.
I recall stating this in (95-96?) when I heard about it. The reserve list is possibly the most shortsighted decision made by a gaming company I have seen. They broke the seal on this with the "From the Vault" sets etc.., effectively breaking the rule, and I applauded. Then they went back on it, backpedalling visibly and stating that it will never happen again (paraphrase). They seemed like they tested the waters with the odd re-circulation of the Zendikar "treasures".
What happened? Did someone seriously complain when reserved cards got made foil for the first time?
Did someone at the WOTC R&D manage to slip reserved cards into these sets without notice, and get "in trouble" for selling these sets out in the US before their release date?
I may sound like I'm ranting, I assure you I am not, or at least I don't intend to be. I am just confused.
Kill the reserve list WOTC. Just do it. It just makes sense. What happens in 2025 when every lotus ever printed is graded and encased in glass because they are worth $10,000+ and wallstreet daytraders start buying them up? People who start collecting stamps have no real intention of using them for postage (their intended purpose). They collect them for their value. The lotus example is absurd, I know, but seemingly possible.
I have a large collection of paper cards. I played almost exclusively Type 1. They just sit in a box, as the value continues to climb. Even tho I may lose a good bit of cash in the short run, I still want that stupid reserve list gone. It's just so much better for the game. More players able to play formats = more money for the company. This increases the longevity of the game.
As for the reserve list affecting vintage paper prices for collectors, look at Birds of Paradise. Look at the going rate of a Ravnica copy vs a Beta. Collectors will still pay the big bucks for prestige, as will gamers. As long as the game survives, the beta edition Black Lotus will never be worthless even if it's somehow reprinted as a common.
Yeah I understand the words. I don't see it. I see people getting frustrated by combo decks and decks with Generals that break the game and getting stuck in a rut. That isn't a lack of common sense or stupidity. It MIGHT be going on tilt. And if you say that being emotional is stupid well we don't have a lot more to talk about. Humans being what they are will be emotional even in no stakes games/situations.
A big stink about the reserved list happened around this time last year. They called a bunch of secondary market big shots like people from Star City Games to their offices and had a big talk about the reserved list. By all accounts everyone including wotc wanted it gone, but then for some unknown reason (it's assumed the lawyers stepped in) they changed their mind and said they were keeping it.
As far as "Snow-Covered Tundra," now it's possible to run 8 Tundras in your deck. Original duals still go up.
Not sure I get why you call people stupid for targeting you for playing a hated general. Single-minded? I get. Unwilling to get over "it", OK maybe...but stupid? Not seeing it.
Thanks very much, Mike for clearing that up. I remember Erik going nuts in Chat with it so I guess that's why he got the attribution from me though I knew a wotc staffer came up with the thing in the first place.
Re: feeling sad, I'm there with you man. I think the thing that made Erik special and what made me want to write about him and multiball was his love for the game and the people who play it and his enthusiasm really infected me and others around me. So I take some little bit of joy that he is still with us in that sense.
Pete, thanks for the Top 10 Expensive List (I was the one asking for it). Just out of curiosity, do you also have access to price data for the cards below the 10th place? Not asking to enlarge the list, just wondering if you got an idea how many online cards costing more than 10 tix do exist (I consider 10 tix the "affordable to every player" barrier). Just the order of magnitude. I'm thinking they're not so many, I see from the list that only 9 cards currently cost more than 30 after all.
I agree thaty Ravnica duals could be problematic in the short run - but Wizards has practically promised us that they would show up in a future base set. I don't expect them in M12, but it is possible. If Modern takes off, and prices climb, I would expect them in M13.
Online, I could also see Wizards offering a couple weeks of Ravinca block limited events, to pump more supply into the market. I know I would enjoy drafting Ravinca again - or even playing 6 pack Ravnica sealed.
The reprint policy says they won't make functional reprints of cards on the list. But your example of Fork, especially compared to Reverberate means they can come pretty close. The only difference between the two is that Fork changes the color of the copied spell to red. Something that doesn't matter very much.
So theoretically they could add a "doesn't really matter" effect to duel lands instead of reprinting them. Change Tundra to Snow-Covered Tundra and wallah, you've gotten around the reprint policy.
The problem with the reserve list, and the reason it was created in the first place, is to gurantee the price of the older cards to stay high. If they start doing a bunch of reprints of the older cards, then the supply raises, and the prices faulters...in theory. I would think that they would stay close to the same honestly.
What they can do to get around the reserve list though is to print functional reprints with different names and casting cost. I believe Fork is on the reserve list, but didn't we get twin cast? They could very easily make new functionally close reprints of the duals lands of the past and they already proved that with Ravnica duals.
It's great seeing how other people envision decks, especially when you have your own best-of lists.
Most of my objections have already been noted - Rofellos banned, etc - but here are some ideas just from my experience - I think Arashi is definitely a card you want in the deck, since it's the only out you'll have against Iona or Linvala (that channel ability has saved my Omnath deck a number of times because it's not a green spell :-D).
I agree with Caterpillar - I would never use Upwelling, it's far too easy for others to abuse, especially blue players. He also lists my backup plan :-D
I would extend the warning for Omnath hate even more strongly - it's not a maybe, it's a definite. In all the games I've played (with my admittedly non-budget deck), I have been targeted in easily half of them, even when I was seriously landscrewed and there were far greater threats on the board. People are stupid a LOT of times, so expect to get targeted. That being said, the beauty of taking all that and coming up with a victory in the end is just that much sweeter.
I was going to try my hand at writing for Pure, and use my Omnath deck as my first article, but you beat me to it :-S I guess I'll wait a bit for the Omnath love to die down again, and go for it then :-D
I have to agree with Blau especially with the Ravnica Duels. They will ultimatly take plave of the older duels and I have already seen the prices of them going up. About a month or so ago I was looking on getting a full playset of each for my commander decks and because of the announcement of Modern. I seems there may be some kind of new format coming and there is speculation of this format including Ravnica Block. When I was persueing the Ravnica Duels, they each were a few dollars cheaper. They have seemed to have gone up since the announcement of modern, and if a good arch type comes out of the Community Cup, then I am sure the duals associated with that deck will soar as well.
Still having a reserve list baffles me. I know Wizards has said that they made a promise and they are going to keep it.
But Wizards doesn't like the reserve list.
I bet the vast majority of players don't like the reserve list.
It seems like if neither parties involved in the promise want the promise to continue, Wizards would be more than justified in getting rid of it.
If there was enough pressure from players, i.e. emailing people at Wizards telling them that you want the reserve list gone, it would go away pretty quickly.
I know this can be a difficult concept to grasp. Logic is how we want to operate as gamers. Ill-logic there for "does not compute" as Spock would say. But MOST people do not operate purely off of intellect. People also operate off of prejudice, bias, fear, gut instincts, intuition, misclicks, etc and while we would hope they will eventually get past this it is a learning process. When you first started playing Commander were you immediately aware of the "smartest" most logical steps in any given situation or did you need to learn them over time? If your answer is you already knew, then congrats Zvi.
I think it is important (if you want to improve the people you are playing against) to not label them as idiots when it is their behavior you want to change. Patience is key as is a smidge of empathy. Imagine how frustrated they must have felt to be facing yet another Omnath deck.
OK now all that said, I have to give you the instance you provide as being ridiculous. Yes people make bad judgement calls etc but when the clear and present danger is elsewhere that person has obviously learned something wrong about commander.
I have occasionally gone after a weaker positioned player just to clear them out of the way when they were interfering with a plan but kicking someone when they are so obviously down is just immature. Unless that person happens to be AJ_Impy, in which case I refer to Rule Zero.
Thanks for the comment. Yes I try to do live recordings if I can, the daily just snuck up on me and I wasn't ready to record the first 2 matches live.
For right or wrong, the reserved list at least gives you an idea of the direction of paper Magic. We won't see reprints of the Dual Lands, and things like Pact of Negation and Tectonic Edge suggest we won't see Force of Will or Wasteland either unless they can be kept out of Standard. Legacy will just have to live with supply issues.
Legacy is more confusing with Magic Online. Are they going to continue reprinting old cards in Master's Edition sets (the dual lands) to create a supply for new players? Or are they going to restrict the supply to a trickle (Force of Will, Wasteland) that sends prices ever skyward? The unknown is keeping me on the fence right now. I would really like to play Legacy online (and would love to play Vintage), but the prices are holding me back. I don't want to jump in right before a big supply increase, but I also don't want to jump in if the supply never increases and the format withers. I don't expect them to reprint cards if prices hit certain dollar amounts, but I would like to know how they plan to support the format in the future.
Thanks for the videos, Jake. I do appreciate having some of the actual gameplay (as opposed to just the replay recaps); though I know this is probably more difficult, I for one really enjoy it in real time.
Definitely an eventful event this time!
If they haven't played me before, they have no clue how I play. They have no clue what the deck is, only the basic abilities of Omnath and therefore what to expect. If I were to play my deck while Leviathan plays his, we would both be considered equal threats. This is logical and intelligent.
What is NOT logical (and therefore completely and utterly stupid) is that with my Omnath, someone else's Thada Adel, someone else's Zur, and their Geth, they will kill my 1/1 Omnath on my sixth turn with 3 lands, instead of targeting the Adel that's smacked everyone 4 times and stolen 3 mana artifacts, or the Zur that's been getting enchantment after enchantment. Yes, this sort of thing has happened. That is STUPID.
I expect that, on an empty board with 3 random people, I'll get the first attack - probably from everyone. But to target Omnath instead of a *far more dangerous threat*?
I also expect that, anyone playing my Omnath deck will target me forever after. That's also stupid, since my deck going off once does not mean it's still going off again and again ad naseum. Yes, Omnath can get funky, especially the way I play him - but you should ALWAYS be examining the threat levels of players and the board, working off the dangers that be rather than working *purely* off of the fear that may never be.
I do have access to some price lists. Downside is that it lists pretty much everything MTGOTraders has listed - including a lot of old product no longer in stock, (stuff like Odyssey block precons, etc.)that probably have not had price updates for a long time. The list is also really long - many thousands of items. I can sort it, but pulling out the prices of that sort of stuff is a bunch of work. Maybe later.
Well they did skirt the issue with the treasures by simply inserting previously owned cards as treasures.
Short answer:
Wizards did begin printing judge foil copies of the reserve list cards. Someone did complain - presumably collectors or dealers or something. Wizards talked to a lot of people about this a few years ago. They also - I'm sure - talked to their lawyers. In the end, the corporation decided to enforce the reserve list. Almost certainly, the choice was whether the potential profits was greater than the costs of fighting the lawsuits - and there would have been lawsuits.
In the end, the decision was made: reserve list stays. End of story, at least for now.
I recall stating this in (95-96?) when I heard about it. The reserve list is possibly the most shortsighted decision made by a gaming company I have seen. They broke the seal on this with the "From the Vault" sets etc.., effectively breaking the rule, and I applauded. Then they went back on it, backpedalling visibly and stating that it will never happen again (paraphrase). They seemed like they tested the waters with the odd re-circulation of the Zendikar "treasures".
What happened? Did someone seriously complain when reserved cards got made foil for the first time?
Did someone at the WOTC R&D manage to slip reserved cards into these sets without notice, and get "in trouble" for selling these sets out in the US before their release date?
I may sound like I'm ranting, I assure you I am not, or at least I don't intend to be. I am just confused.
Kill the reserve list WOTC. Just do it. It just makes sense. What happens in 2025 when every lotus ever printed is graded and encased in glass because they are worth $10,000+ and wallstreet daytraders start buying them up? People who start collecting stamps have no real intention of using them for postage (their intended purpose). They collect them for their value. The lotus example is absurd, I know, but seemingly possible.
I have a large collection of paper cards. I played almost exclusively Type 1. They just sit in a box, as the value continues to climb. Even tho I may lose a good bit of cash in the short run, I still want that stupid reserve list gone. It's just so much better for the game. More players able to play formats = more money for the company. This increases the longevity of the game.
As for the reserve list affecting vintage paper prices for collectors, look at Birds of Paradise. Look at the going rate of a Ravnica copy vs a Beta. Collectors will still pay the big bucks for prestige, as will gamers. As long as the game survives, the beta edition Black Lotus will never be worthless even if it's somehow reprinted as a common.
Yeah I understand the words. I don't see it. I see people getting frustrated by combo decks and decks with Generals that break the game and getting stuck in a rut. That isn't a lack of common sense or stupidity. It MIGHT be going on tilt. And if you say that being emotional is stupid well we don't have a lot more to talk about. Humans being what they are will be emotional even in no stakes games/situations.
i think you should add the below cards to the price increase watch list once modern replace legacy
bitterblossom
engineered explosives
chalice of the void
dark confidant
ancestral vision
Ah yes but not as necessary so perhaps they don't go up THAT much more.
A big stink about the reserved list happened around this time last year. They called a bunch of secondary market big shots like people from Star City Games to their offices and had a big talk about the reserved list. By all accounts everyone including wotc wanted it gone, but then for some unknown reason (it's assumed the lawyers stepped in) they changed their mind and said they were keeping it.
As far as "Snow-Covered Tundra," now it's possible to run 8 Tundras in your deck. Original duals still go up.
Stupid... lacking in common sense... failing to take actions which maximize ones chance of winning the game qualifies here in my opinion.
See you there!
Not sure I get why you call people stupid for targeting you for playing a hated general. Single-minded? I get. Unwilling to get over "it", OK maybe...but stupid? Not seeing it.
Thanks very much, Mike for clearing that up. I remember Erik going nuts in Chat with it so I guess that's why he got the attribution from me though I knew a wotc staffer came up with the thing in the first place.
Re: feeling sad, I'm there with you man. I think the thing that made Erik special and what made me want to write about him and multiball was his love for the game and the people who play it and his enthusiasm really infected me and others around me. So I take some little bit of joy that he is still with us in that sense.
Pete, thanks for the Top 10 Expensive List (I was the one asking for it). Just out of curiosity, do you also have access to price data for the cards below the 10th place? Not asking to enlarge the list, just wondering if you got an idea how many online cards costing more than 10 tix do exist (I consider 10 tix the "affordable to every player" barrier). Just the order of magnitude. I'm thinking they're not so many, I see from the list that only 9 cards currently cost more than 30 after all.
I agree thaty Ravnica duals could be problematic in the short run - but Wizards has practically promised us that they would show up in a future base set. I don't expect them in M12, but it is possible. If Modern takes off, and prices climb, I would expect them in M13.
Online, I could also see Wizards offering a couple weeks of Ravinca block limited events, to pump more supply into the market. I know I would enjoy drafting Ravinca again - or even playing 6 pack Ravnica sealed.
The reprint policy says they won't make functional reprints of cards on the list. But your example of Fork, especially compared to Reverberate means they can come pretty close. The only difference between the two is that Fork changes the color of the copied spell to red. Something that doesn't matter very much.
So theoretically they could add a "doesn't really matter" effect to duel lands instead of reprinting them. Change Tundra to Snow-Covered Tundra and wallah, you've gotten around the reprint policy.
Just a note: The online beta for commander has begun and even though I'm not allowed to talk about it, I think I can at least say this much:
Oh. My. God.
This stuff is soooo cool! Just can't wait to test these goodies!!
LE
The problem with the reserve list, and the reason it was created in the first place, is to gurantee the price of the older cards to stay high. If they start doing a bunch of reprints of the older cards, then the supply raises, and the prices faulters...in theory. I would think that they would stay close to the same honestly.
What they can do to get around the reserve list though is to print functional reprints with different names and casting cost. I believe Fork is on the reserve list, but didn't we get twin cast? They could very easily make new functionally close reprints of the duals lands of the past and they already proved that with Ravnica duals.
It's great seeing how other people envision decks, especially when you have your own best-of lists.
Most of my objections have already been noted - Rofellos banned, etc - but here are some ideas just from my experience - I think Arashi is definitely a card you want in the deck, since it's the only out you'll have against Iona or Linvala (that channel ability has saved my Omnath deck a number of times because it's not a green spell :-D).
I agree with Caterpillar - I would never use Upwelling, it's far too easy for others to abuse, especially blue players. He also lists my backup plan :-D
I would extend the warning for Omnath hate even more strongly - it's not a maybe, it's a definite. In all the games I've played (with my admittedly non-budget deck), I have been targeted in easily half of them, even when I was seriously landscrewed and there were far greater threats on the board. People are stupid a LOT of times, so expect to get targeted. That being said, the beauty of taking all that and coming up with a victory in the end is just that much sweeter.
I was going to try my hand at writing for Pure, and use my Omnath deck as my first article, but you beat me to it :-S I guess I'll wait a bit for the Omnath love to die down again, and go for it then :-D
I have to agree with Blau especially with the Ravnica Duels. They will ultimatly take plave of the older duels and I have already seen the prices of them going up. About a month or so ago I was looking on getting a full playset of each for my commander decks and because of the announcement of Modern. I seems there may be some kind of new format coming and there is speculation of this format including Ravnica Block. When I was persueing the Ravnica Duels, they each were a few dollars cheaper. They have seemed to have gone up since the announcement of modern, and if a good arch type comes out of the Community Cup, then I am sure the duals associated with that deck will soar as well.
Still having a reserve list baffles me. I know Wizards has said that they made a promise and they are going to keep it.
But Wizards doesn't like the reserve list.
I bet the vast majority of players don't like the reserve list.
It seems like if neither parties involved in the promise want the promise to continue, Wizards would be more than justified in getting rid of it.
If there was enough pressure from players, i.e. emailing people at Wizards telling them that you want the reserve list gone, it would go away pretty quickly.
In fact, I'll do that this weekend.