- Dredge : Morning Tide (not played as it is a sorcery speed spell) and Withered Wretch (which is actualy good in heavy black based decks). Note that Jailer isnt that played anymore because it is less versatile than others hates : it works very well vs any dredge engine (including loam, eventualy bloodghast/vengevine/genesis ... ) but does nothing vs reanimator. You are also totaly correct in saying that bog is slow, but it is neither cabal therapy targetable nor counterable which is sometime pretty handy.
- ANT : Trinisphere (huge if early played). Note that pillar isnt that played because, ANT being the most ran combo, to burn the ANT player is often faster than to play hate cards but it still remains a very efficient red defense to combo or multi-spells decks anyway (ie enchantress/belcher ...).
- Gob : Ghostly Prison as the W Propaganda.
... well this list is definitly hard to entirely complete !
I knew I would miss some, hence disclaimer at beginning. Let me hit each point you made.
Dredge - Jailer doesn't see play which is why I didn't include. Grunt has really only been in DnT, Moon and Seal seem to be mostly Enchantress cards, Bog is a New Horizons target, but is slow in other decks imo.
ANT - Didn't include pillar as it currently sees little play, same with Arcane. Halo sees play in DnT and Enchantress, also some rogue lists. Can't believe I missed Stifle. Teeg I included in another portion of the article so I thought it might be redundant.
Reanimator - can't believe I forgot Karakas and Faerie. Other two seem meh.
Zoo - totally forgot about Perish, good inclusion there
Enchantress - really dropped the ball here, nice call on EE, forgot to include that one, plus predator in thresh (Duh, missed that one)
Goblins - Plague doesn't see much play, Moat and Humility are lights out, Others are meh.
Can't believe I forgot so many. Good Points Lours.
I consider it rogue because I've yet to see a decklist like his in the research I've done. Yes, there are thopterstill decks, but his list seemed unique enough for me to deem it rogue. Plus, he runs all kinds of different builds which I think gives him the Rogue title.
It probably has been done a ton of times, but could somebody please provide a reminder on how/when to participate to the contest ? And the exact rule about the cards (number of tribal minimum, banned/restricted card ...)
If the schedule is friendly to me and if I get freetime, I would be interested to try this format in a contest.
I didn't play obviously, but I don't really see the problem with the sliver deck. I mean, he was having to run 40 creatures across (presumably) 5 colours, so to "get around" the spirit restriction, it seems like he actually gave himself quite substantially more restrictions, and he lost anyway. I would applaud his crazy deckbuilding idea personally.
Anyway, I'm upset I missed this one. I already have a pretty interesting spirits deck built (it's based around gifts ungiven for various piles involving evershrike recursion), but couldn't make the date.
This is my first week playing Legacy and this is what i need. Explanation of the metagame and the sidebords :D
I usually play standard, block, draft... but now, i understand that Legacy is an amazing format :P with a wide variety of decks and, why not, open to new ideas, wich is crucial for the wellness of the format.
Nice article, it looks good and provides useful informations.
That said, I think the "hate card section" should be a bit more detailed as there are several very good hate cards not mentioned. As well it is complicate to establish a list including all hate cards for each deck as some are situational and others are good only in specific decks, but I will add some ideas for each deck as a complement to the article (I will probably forget some cards also).
- Dredge : Yixlid Jailer, Wheel of Sun & Moon, Ground Seal, Jotun Grunt, Bojuka Bog
- ANT : Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo, Arcane Laboratory, Sadistic sacrament (to tendril), Gaddock Teeg, Stifle (dont forget that the storm effect goes on the stack and could be countered if ever you still have stifle in hand which is often pretty hard after duress/seize)
- Reanimator : Karakas, Macabre Faerie, Curfew, Wheel of Sun & Moon / Ground seals (but doesnt work on Show & Tell plan B)
- Zoo (no really hate cards here, only some helpful ideas) : Firespout, Perish, Moat, Pernicious deed, Kitchen Finks, Chill, Warmth
- Enchantress : Trygon Predator, Tempest of Light, EE (not really a hate card but usualy an early EE=1 attacks hardly the mana acceleration and EE=2 could remove enchantress, sterling grove, words of X ...)
- Goblin : E. Plague, Moat, Humility, Jitte, Lightmine Field, Tivadar's Crusade (yeah i know ...), Pyroclasm, Silent Arbitrer, Chill
Is it a big job to put together the draft set EV stats. I often ask for these, becouse I find them very useful, to decide what draft to do.
If they're a lot of work, then doing them once every few weeks is fine, but if not, I'd really appreciate them each week. ;-)
Also, good work on a start to a new players guide. Just this week I had someone in game ask me about getting started. I had to find the MTGOFAQ link, and pointed him to this site and MTGOTraders.
I think it would be very useful to have a single webpage containing links to everything (in order) that a new player would need, eg FAQ, shortcuts, tips on setting stops, how to use bots, the "how to manage your MTGO budget" that was on this site earlier in the week etc.
In the second game of the Devastating Red match you can actually win regardless of whether his last card is lightning bolt. Play the Teetering Peaks, float 4 red, cast Devastating Summons sacrificing 4 lands, play your second Devastating Summons sacrificing 1 land, then play the kicked Goblin Bushwhacker. You now have two 5/4 creatures and three 2/1 creatures. The best he can do is to bolt one of the 2/1s, but that still leaves you with 14 power of creatures, which kills him.
Good videos of Grixis control, Sorin looks a bit ruff to cast vs Seas and/or Tectonics, as would Cruel. Have you tested those match ups(saw you had not run across them in event)? The control match is crucial with the top spot being UW and walkers,which once resolved are an issue against this build w/o Hexmage,Needles or Specter and only 1 quake 3 manlands.
Jace Beleren may be a budget choice- 2.0 does everything better and more -,but has merits; turn 3 drop, draw engine, very least it trades with 2.0 and is a "preemptive Jace" tm-Rukcus-.
Duress seems weaker here when it could be Blightning,Divination or Mind Spring -better in every MU and can also negate your Duress if they resolve Spring-, Duressing someone's Spring or walker despite walker redundancy is what i assumed it was there for. Duress is stil good in conjuction with more answers wether board or main. The creature package can play more Gatekeepers, older lists used Defiler of Souls to answer Banes,Vamps,Mono W,Sphinx and half of Naya. Vess,Bloodwitch,Nighthawk,Countersquall and Thought Hemorrhage can help with various matches. All is Dust can also be played here too.
2HG gives an additional problem of not having enough players as you will need groups of 4. Anyone else left over will not be able to play and will be dissapointed.
I dont know if its viable with the small player base the event has, 8 players like this event will be fine and will result in two rounds. Then the next equal set will be 12 players which will result in two players having a round 2 bye to the final.
One obvious rule is, no two teams are allowed to have the same tribe. This means two things. One: advanced registration of teams and Two: extra time alotted for the games since Multiplayer tends to be a bit longer. Also there are some combos that really work best in multiplayer so there is the question of what should be legal. Food for thought.
2hg seems to be the clear winner so far. Obviously there issues with card legalities that may need to be addressed since cloudpost does give way simply who plays emrakul first for example and if a random team ends up double slivers well its almost a lock for them to win.
I may actually be able to make it on the 19th, so my vote is for 2HG.
If you do run 2HG, Slivers should probably be banned. I played against a Tribal 2HG team of Slivers and it was brutal. Two-Headed Slivers and Virulent Slivers from both team members meant you were getting multiple poison tokens a turn with no good way to block.
You might also want to consider banning Cloudpost, it's a card you either have to play or need to play against in 2HG games. It does some crazy mana ramping. (If everyone played Cloudposts, you could theoretically hard cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 3!).
Thanks for the kind words! It's always good for a writer to know it if their work is being appreciated and/or useful to people.
I'll try to get more screenshots in. They take time, and these articles already take me a lot of time to write, but I know they make situations much easier to follow. I try to get them for sure on the most critical, challenging, and/or educational decision points, as I did here. Certainly at any point where I ask readers "What play would you make here?" I prefer to have a screenshot. Work's pretty demanding lately, as I try to finish shepherding Furcadia and Dragon's Eye Productions through the tail end (I hope) of the recession. But there's light at the end of the tunnel. Anyway I hear ya, and I'll try to get more screenshots back in!
That Traitorous Instinct by the way... Most players wouldn't think to play around that, sure. But the top players often would. I'm trying to train myself to be "that good", and hopefully point out where some of the biggest challenges are for other people that want to be. I will say that I watched a video of one of LSV's drafts, and he mentioned before a big attack considering how many blockers to hold back based on whether Traitorous Instinct would kill him, since his opponent was in red. He has a 70% win rate on the pro tour for a reason. I'll also mention the value of scouting again - if I'd looked through my opponent's deck list carefully and noticed the Traitorous Instinct in there, then it become reasonably likely for me to think about how to play around it where it matters.
I almost won a game at my paper draft last night through good use of a traitorous instinct, but at the end I missed a key play. With two of my guys enchanted with the other guy's Lust For War, I could have put my own Guard Duty on one of my own guys to buy a crucial extra turn. A trick to remember for next time. Wow this set has a LOT of unexpected interactions and tricks! I saw the trick I'd missed one turn later, when it was too late. I won't miss that one again!
You don't have to go 'Nazi'. (Which is a really offensive way of putting it btw.) But you do have to state your expectations clearly. Decency is something that doesn't factor into games generally. Spikes will do whatever it takes to win. If you leave them room to do stuff you can expect they will.
I also forgot to mention :
- Dredge : Morning Tide (not played as it is a sorcery speed spell) and Withered Wretch (which is actualy good in heavy black based decks). Note that Jailer isnt that played anymore because it is less versatile than others hates : it works very well vs any dredge engine (including loam, eventualy bloodghast/vengevine/genesis ... ) but does nothing vs reanimator. You are also totaly correct in saying that bog is slow, but it is neither cabal therapy targetable nor counterable which is sometime pretty handy.
- ANT : Trinisphere (huge if early played). Note that pillar isnt that played because, ANT being the most ran combo, to burn the ANT player is often faster than to play hate cards but it still remains a very efficient red defense to combo or multi-spells decks anyway (ie enchantress/belcher ...).
- Gob : Ghostly Prison as the W Propaganda.
... well this list is definitly hard to entirely complete !
Well Welcome to the Dark Side Lol. Glad you enjoyed the article and found it helpful, always nice to know your writing serves its' purpose.
Good Luck in the format and if you need testing help just message me when I'm online and if available I'll be glad to help.
I knew I would miss some, hence disclaimer at beginning. Let me hit each point you made.
Dredge - Jailer doesn't see play which is why I didn't include. Grunt has really only been in DnT, Moon and Seal seem to be mostly Enchantress cards, Bog is a New Horizons target, but is slow in other decks imo.
ANT - Didn't include pillar as it currently sees little play, same with Arcane. Halo sees play in DnT and Enchantress, also some rogue lists. Can't believe I missed Stifle. Teeg I included in another portion of the article so I thought it might be redundant.
Reanimator - can't believe I forgot Karakas and Faerie. Other two seem meh.
Zoo - totally forgot about Perish, good inclusion there
Enchantress - really dropped the ball here, nice call on EE, forgot to include that one, plus predator in thresh (Duh, missed that one)
Goblins - Plague doesn't see much play, Moat and Humility are lights out, Others are meh.
Can't believe I forgot so many. Good Points Lours.
I consider it rogue because I've yet to see a decklist like his in the research I've done. Yes, there are thopterstill decks, but his list seemed unique enough for me to deem it rogue. Plus, he runs all kinds of different builds which I think gives him the Rogue title.
It probably has been done a ton of times, but could somebody please provide a reminder on how/when to participate to the contest ? And the exact rule about the cards (number of tribal minimum, banned/restricted card ...)
If the schedule is friendly to me and if I get freetime, I would be interested to try this format in a contest.
I didn't play obviously, but I don't really see the problem with the sliver deck. I mean, he was having to run 40 creatures across (presumably) 5 colours, so to "get around" the spirit restriction, it seems like he actually gave himself quite substantially more restrictions, and he lost anyway. I would applaud his crazy deckbuilding idea personally.
Anyway, I'm upset I missed this one. I already have a pretty interesting spirits deck built (it's based around gifts ungiven for various piles involving evershrike recursion), but couldn't make the date.
GREAT article!!
This is my first week playing Legacy and this is what i need. Explanation of the metagame and the sidebords :D
I usually play standard, block, draft... but now, i understand that Legacy is an amazing format :P with a wide variety of decks and, why not, open to new ideas, wich is crucial for the wellness of the format.
thanks.
Nice article, it looks good and provides useful informations.
That said, I think the "hate card section" should be a bit more detailed as there are several very good hate cards not mentioned. As well it is complicate to establish a list including all hate cards for each deck as some are situational and others are good only in specific decks, but I will add some ideas for each deck as a complement to the article (I will probably forget some cards also).
- Dredge : Yixlid Jailer, Wheel of Sun & Moon, Ground Seal, Jotun Grunt, Bojuka Bog
- ANT : Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo, Arcane Laboratory, Sadistic sacrament (to tendril), Gaddock Teeg, Stifle (dont forget that the storm effect goes on the stack and could be countered if ever you still have stifle in hand which is often pretty hard after duress/seize)
- Reanimator : Karakas, Macabre Faerie, Curfew, Wheel of Sun & Moon / Ground seals (but doesnt work on Show & Tell plan B)
- Zoo (no really hate cards here, only some helpful ideas) : Firespout, Perish, Moat, Pernicious deed, Kitchen Finks, Chill, Warmth
- Enchantress : Trygon Predator, Tempest of Light, EE (not really a hate card but usualy an early EE=1 attacks hardly the mana acceleration and EE=2 could remove enchantress, sterling grove, words of X ...)
- Goblin : E. Plague, Moat, Humility, Jitte, Lightmine Field, Tivadar's Crusade (yeah i know ...), Pyroclasm, Silent Arbitrer, Chill
I wouldn't call FiatLux's deck rogue, it's just a regular Thopterstill deck ( at least here in germany a couple of people run similiar decklists ).
@Reaper: Tell me which deck wants to play Glacial Chasm. Decks with reliq knight could play it, but Bojuka Bog is the more elegant option.
Hi
Is it a big job to put together the draft set EV stats. I often ask for these, becouse I find them very useful, to decide what draft to do.
If they're a lot of work, then doing them once every few weeks is fine, but if not, I'd really appreciate them each week. ;-)
Also, good work on a start to a new players guide. Just this week I had someone in game ask me about getting started. I had to find the MTGOFAQ link, and pointed him to this site and MTGOTraders.
I think it would be very useful to have a single webpage containing links to everything (in order) that a new player would need, eg FAQ, shortcuts, tips on setting stops, how to use bots, the "how to manage your MTGO budget" that was on this site earlier in the week etc.
Cheers!!
In the second game of the Devastating Red match you can actually win regardless of whether his last card is lightning bolt. Play the Teetering Peaks, float 4 red, cast Devastating Summons sacrificing 4 lands, play your second Devastating Summons sacrificing 1 land, then play the kicked Goblin Bushwhacker. You now have two 5/4 creatures and three 2/1 creatures. The best he can do is to bolt one of the 2/1s, but that still leaves you with 14 power of creatures, which kills him.
Hi greazy710, check this link for more info:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/24078477/Build_Your_Ow...
This is the link for last weekend's tournament but it shows you the general rules and answers the where/when/how questions.
LE
Very nice info! You pilot RDW very well and I really enjoy the videos. They help greatly when explaining why you make each play.
Good videos of Grixis control, Sorin looks a bit ruff to cast vs Seas and/or Tectonics, as would Cruel. Have you tested those match ups(saw you had not run across them in event)? The control match is crucial with the top spot being UW and walkers,which once resolved are an issue against this build w/o Hexmage,Needles or Specter and only 1 quake 3 manlands.
Jace Beleren may be a budget choice- 2.0 does everything better and more -,but has merits; turn 3 drop, draw engine, very least it trades with 2.0 and is a "preemptive Jace" tm-Rukcus-.
Duress seems weaker here when it could be Blightning,Divination or Mind Spring -better in every MU and can also negate your Duress if they resolve Spring-, Duressing someone's Spring or walker despite walker redundancy is what i assumed it was there for. Duress is stil good in conjuction with more answers wether board or main. The creature package can play more Gatekeepers, older lists used Defiler of Souls to answer Banes,Vamps,Mono W,Sphinx and half of Naya. Vess,Bloodwitch,Nighthawk,Countersquall and Thought Hemorrhage can help with various matches. All is Dust can also be played here too.
Good luck.
Out of interrest: why isn't Glacial Chasm run as a anti-dredge card? They got 1 out (except for waiting it out I guess) which is in their sb...
You should play the Mindbreak Trap countering the Ad Nauseam, you will never succeed in countering the storm, because of the disruption afterwards.
2HG gives an additional problem of not having enough players as you will need groups of 4. Anyone else left over will not be able to play and will be dissapointed.
I dont know if its viable with the small player base the event has, 8 players like this event will be fine and will result in two rounds. Then the next equal set will be 12 players which will result in two players having a round 2 bye to the final.
One obvious rule is, no two teams are allowed to have the same tribe. This means two things. One: advanced registration of teams and Two: extra time alotted for the games since Multiplayer tends to be a bit longer. Also there are some combos that really work best in multiplayer so there is the question of what should be legal. Food for thought.
Yea, it's worth it to stick it out; plus you get games 2-3 to play your normal 40.
2hg seems to be the clear winner so far. Obviously there issues with card legalities that may need to be addressed since cloudpost does give way simply who plays emrakul first for example and if a random team ends up double slivers well its almost a lock for them to win.
theres any number of things that can go crazy in a 2hg game, double elves even, double fae/counter
I may actually be able to make it on the 19th, so my vote is for 2HG.
If you do run 2HG, Slivers should probably be banned. I played against a Tribal 2HG team of Slivers and it was brutal. Two-Headed Slivers and Virulent Slivers from both team members meant you were getting multiple poison tokens a turn with no good way to block.
You might also want to consider banning Cloudpost, it's a card you either have to play or need to play against in 2HG games. It does some crazy mana ramping. (If everyone played Cloudposts, you could theoretically hard cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 3!).
Wondering how someone joins in to play BYOS. I am pretty tired of the current meta in standard and am looking to put some fun back in MTG
Thanks for the kind words! It's always good for a writer to know it if their work is being appreciated and/or useful to people.
I'll try to get more screenshots in. They take time, and these articles already take me a lot of time to write, but I know they make situations much easier to follow. I try to get them for sure on the most critical, challenging, and/or educational decision points, as I did here. Certainly at any point where I ask readers "What play would you make here?" I prefer to have a screenshot. Work's pretty demanding lately, as I try to finish shepherding Furcadia and Dragon's Eye Productions through the tail end (I hope) of the recession. But there's light at the end of the tunnel. Anyway I hear ya, and I'll try to get more screenshots back in!
That Traitorous Instinct by the way... Most players wouldn't think to play around that, sure. But the top players often would. I'm trying to train myself to be "that good", and hopefully point out where some of the biggest challenges are for other people that want to be. I will say that I watched a video of one of LSV's drafts, and he mentioned before a big attack considering how many blockers to hold back based on whether Traitorous Instinct would kill him, since his opponent was in red. He has a 70% win rate on the pro tour for a reason. I'll also mention the value of scouting again - if I'd looked through my opponent's deck list carefully and noticed the Traitorous Instinct in there, then it become reasonably likely for me to think about how to play around it where it matters.
I almost won a game at my paper draft last night through good use of a traitorous instinct, but at the end I missed a key play. With two of my guys enchanted with the other guy's Lust For War, I could have put my own Guard Duty on one of my own guys to buy a crucial extra turn. A trick to remember for next time. Wow this set has a LOT of unexpected interactions and tricks! I saw the trick I'd missed one turn later, when it was too late. I won't miss that one again!
You don't have to go 'Nazi'. (Which is a really offensive way of putting it btw.) But you do have to state your expectations clearly. Decency is something that doesn't factor into games generally. Spikes will do whatever it takes to win. If you leave them room to do stuff you can expect they will.