That is a very narrow-minded point of view. Not that people should improve their game (that's just good advice.) But that people don't have a right to complain when they have a grievance. You of course have the right to not listen/read it. I often skip over topics I am not interested in. But going around this site telling people to put up or shut up is just trolling and bullying. You are smarter than that.
I agree that people who complain for complaint's sake usually are attention seekers but so what? You are complaining about complaining. Does that mean you are seeking attention too? I would not have thought that of you. Take your own advice and be proactive about it by rising above the complaints instead of sinking to the lower depths of flaming them.
Also the comment about magics length of existence is irrelevant. The concepts you are espousing aren't new to magic. They echo the capitalist point of view. (For instance why the Yankees are always on the top of the lists.) Fortunately not everyone agrees with all those tenets or there would be a lot more serious problems in this world than who is whining about what. Oh wait no there are. Nevermind.
Sorry, but this is simply uncalled for. I am stating my opinion, without being rude to anyone, and you step up and simply tell me to fix my financial shortcomings or shut up?
I am working hard on # 1, but it is hard with a kid and a second one coming, and no sir, I will not shut up because you tell me to. Lets keep it at this shall we?
magic has been around long enough that the common solutions of readjust your magic budget or innovate ways to win without those cards are all well known by this point in time. A player's refusal to do this and still complain about not being able to compete at a competitive is quite simply attention-grabbing. The end of my competitive days were in RAV?/TSP standard...so shocklands, goyf, and a good number of other pricey cards existed. What did I do? I didnt sit around on message boards and complain that the price of lands kept me from playing. No instead I sucked it up and built a monogreen aggro deck. Sure at first it sucked but after playing it and tweaking it in FNM it got to be a consistent top 4 deck. Did I ever go to the pro-tour? no, but that wasnt my goal. My point you wither work with what you have or you find a way to get what you want. No need to make us listen to the complaints that other people are "spoiling" it for you, because jace is pricey
1) Having a legitimate gripe is not whining. Only insecure people and bullies call others whiners in an attempt to belittle them (into shutting up) when a more reasonable approach would be to argue why their claim isn't legit.
2) I believe that in some formats economy plays a huge part in whether a person can be competitive. Sure Davids sometimes slay Goliaths. But what makes those events remarkable is that they are rare and ironic. I don't see much point in saying more about this since it is a moot point like the casual debate. Though talking about it in terms of common ground, and solutions does have some merit.
3) I get the instinct to ridicule those who complain without doing anything about their situation but is it really necessary? Seems counter productive and stupid to me. (Because it encourages ignorance and arguments rather than educating or doing anything productive.
Any opinions on what you guys would like to see for the next article? I'm trying to keep them somewhat weekly (I had written and submitted this one 4-5 days after the last Cerebral Vortex, but it didn't see print until just now). Either something I listed at the bottom, or if you'd like, challenge me to build around a cheap (under a ticket) rare (hopefully something with lots of Johnny potential).
I dont think comparing the original "rare" planeswalkers to there "mythic" counterparts is really a fair comparison. By planeswalkers moving into mythic with shards of alara it allows them to be better since they are rarer. I mean why have another level of rarity if the cards are going to be equal in pwer to the previous level, it makes no sense. And no offense but Nicol Bolas is horribly costed and rarely if ever sees play. 8 mana should definitely be winning you the game then and there, not destroying target noncreature permanent and then doing nothing for the rest of the turn.
I think I kinda know what you're talking about. I altered one of the Avatars to have the same picture I use here on PureMTGO. Granted, it is kind of foolish since no one else can see it, but I like it. It would be sweet if we could upload our own avatars instead of having to use theirs.
I hear ya on that Menace. I went through and created brackets for all the cards into sets X Number - X Number = Mirrodin. It has helped a lot, but still makes it a pain. However, I have taken to altering the token art. They are easy to edit and find (using windows search). Plus it adds a nice "surprise" feature to the game when your opponent plays a token generator and you are greeted with altered art.
Not to mention how the planeswalkers have gotten drastically better (ie: abilities) with their mana costs changing only slightly or not at all. There was just an article written about that on MTG.com. The author seemed to make an argument, but forgot what he was talking about half way through it.
Examples:
Ajani Goldmane mana cost of 2WW vs Elspeth, Knight-Errant: 2WW
These aren't even close to the same power level, yet they have the same mana cost.
Ajani Goldmane vs Gideon Jura
Gideon is much better than Goldmane and for only the cost of 1 additional colorless mana.
Garruk Wildspeaker vs Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Remember when Garruk was showing up in 4x amounts in virtually every deck in standard? He was fetching around $40 each IRL and people thought that was outrageous. Now for a mana cost of 2UU you get a planeswalker with FOUR really good abilities. The massive increase in power level is totally obvious.
That is why the cost of mythics is so high. WOTC is ramping up the power level on these mythics. The only one, IMO, that is correctly costed would be Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Now THAT is exactly how it should feel when a planeswalker hits the table. It comes into play huge (usually using the +3 right away) and it dominates the game. When you give something the same power level but cost it at half, it distorts gameplay. Someone mentioned it earlier, the biggest problem with planeswalkers (and this is the real reason they are pricey) is because there are so few real answers to them. Especially against Jace 2.0. Your need to resolve something amazing to stop him, but therein lies the problem; you have to resolve it, and Jace is in blue, the color of counterspells. How many games have been won simply because a player resolved Jace 2.0? Well, using just this website, there have been TWO articles written just this week about winning with Jace in play. The guy is completely undercosted. WOTC messed up. If we want to talk about mythics skewing secondary prices, let's not include Jace 2.0. I think it's pretty clear that this guy was a mistake that hopefully they do not repeat.
kind of an understatement, can you imagine tryin to set these games up? youd have to set your blocks when joining and then itd have to run a check on your dekc based on what you just entered
no im refering more to players who are all waahhhh i cant compete because i cant afford X card...thats a losers excuse and its hard to argue against. People constantly whine they cant play legacy since they cant afford FoW, sorry there are plenty of non FoW decks. If you cant bend to play on of those too bad.
That quote for negators cant be right. I have had 2 for a long time and been completely unable to sell them for anything reasonable. Certainly no offers near double digits much less 12 tickets.
suprisingly i agree with you, this would be a great supported format(as would most) but this one seems far more open than other formats. The only issue is I know currently wizards has no way to enforce the rules, and coding would seem to be really difficult legality wise.
Thanks. I figured the math would bear out to be something like that. I further believe that the median value of planeswalkers would be even higher. I'm not sure if these numbers favor my suspicions that planeswalkers as a card are not helping the game, but they certainly don't help the argument in their favor.
out of 105 mythics in print 20 are planeswalker cards which accounts for 19% of all mythics.
out of the total cost of a one of set of mythics the price is 602.70. A one of set of planeswalkers will run you 260.75.
So planewalkers account for 43.3% of the cost of the mythic set.
my math should be correct feel free to flame me if im wrong. But take what you will fro these numbers.
I respectfully would like to point out that 5 of the top 7 cards on your list are planeswalkers, and a lot of the complaints in this discussion seem to reference the powerlevels of some popular planeswalkers. I think that part of the problem is that whenever a planeswalker hits the board it changes the game state far more than nearly any equivilently costed card. The problem that I have with this is that there are so few ways to deal with them outright. I dont think green has anything capable of shutting down a planeswalker outside of combat in standard (and precious few moderately costed solutions in older formats.)
In my opinion it is very similar in some ways to having your opponent play a timewalk. Chances are you are going to waste at LEAST 1 turn dealing with the planeswalker. If you choose not to a planeswalker left unattended will quickly get out of hand and the longer you allow it to remain in play the more difficult it will be to handle. So you face this situation where if you don't deal with them immediately your chances of doing so in the future greatly diminish.
I personally feel that adding planeswalkers did little to advance the game while (I feel) damaging recruiting new players. I mean, who hasnt seen a new player come to their FLGS and sitting down, getting trounced by Elspeth (or whomever) only to find that the cost of the card they are facing is ludicrously high on the secondary market. I guess I just wish they had more in game methods for dealing with planeswalkers than above and beyond silver bullets like Oblivion Ring and Hexmage.
Had I the time I would like to determine what percentage of mythics are planeswalkers and compare that to what percentage of liquid value planeswalkers hold amongst all mythics. I am inclined to beleive that the values will be inverse.
It really gives you good insight in a format that I wish Wizards would support more. I'm sure it, BYOS that is, would find a much larger following online than most formats, and for quite obvious reasons too. The room for creativity is just marvelous.
Thanks for your contribution, LE and I'll be looking forward to participating in the BYOS seasons once I return from Australia.
That is a very narrow-minded point of view. Not that people should improve their game (that's just good advice.) But that people don't have a right to complain when they have a grievance. You of course have the right to not listen/read it. I often skip over topics I am not interested in. But going around this site telling people to put up or shut up is just trolling and bullying. You are smarter than that.
I agree that people who complain for complaint's sake usually are attention seekers but so what? You are complaining about complaining. Does that mean you are seeking attention too? I would not have thought that of you. Take your own advice and be proactive about it by rising above the complaints instead of sinking to the lower depths of flaming them.
Also the comment about magics length of existence is irrelevant. The concepts you are espousing aren't new to magic. They echo the capitalist point of view. (For instance why the Yankees are always on the top of the lists.) Fortunately not everyone agrees with all those tenets or there would be a lot more serious problems in this world than who is whining about what. Oh wait no there are. Nevermind.
ummm, i dont think suppresion field should have had any effect whatsoever on Dimir House Guard...if it did it may be a bug
What happens when someone comes to game one sporting all the "pro red" hate possible? They still lose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fes2eFVIt7A
I liked the article before, but somehow I missed the TI reference. 5 Fireballs etc etc
then innovate find ways to play around the cards you cant afford. moping about the price will get you nowhere.
Sorry, but this is simply uncalled for. I am stating my opinion, without being rude to anyone, and you step up and simply tell me to fix my financial shortcomings or shut up?
I am working hard on # 1, but it is hard with a kid and a second one coming, and no sir, I will not shut up because you tell me to. Lets keep it at this shall we?
magic has been around long enough that the common solutions of readjust your magic budget or innovate ways to win without those cards are all well known by this point in time. A player's refusal to do this and still complain about not being able to compete at a competitive is quite simply attention-grabbing. The end of my competitive days were in RAV?/TSP standard...so shocklands, goyf, and a good number of other pricey cards existed. What did I do? I didnt sit around on message boards and complain that the price of lands kept me from playing. No instead I sucked it up and built a monogreen aggro deck. Sure at first it sucked but after playing it and tweaking it in FNM it got to be a consistent top 4 deck. Did I ever go to the pro-tour? no, but that wasnt my goal. My point you wither work with what you have or you find a way to get what you want. No need to make us listen to the complaints that other people are "spoiling" it for you, because jace is pricey
I agree. Totally different animals. Planeswalkers that are mythic should be game wrecking to some degree.
1) Having a legitimate gripe is not whining. Only insecure people and bullies call others whiners in an attempt to belittle them (into shutting up) when a more reasonable approach would be to argue why their claim isn't legit.
2) I believe that in some formats economy plays a huge part in whether a person can be competitive. Sure Davids sometimes slay Goliaths. But what makes those events remarkable is that they are rare and ironic. I don't see much point in saying more about this since it is a moot point like the casual debate. Though talking about it in terms of common ground, and solutions does have some merit.
3) I get the instinct to ridicule those who complain without doing anything about their situation but is it really necessary? Seems counter productive and stupid to me. (Because it encourages ignorance and arguments rather than educating or doing anything productive.
Any opinions on what you guys would like to see for the next article? I'm trying to keep them somewhat weekly (I had written and submitted this one 4-5 days after the last Cerebral Vortex, but it didn't see print until just now). Either something I listed at the bottom, or if you'd like, challenge me to build around a cheap (under a ticket) rare (hopefully something with lots of Johnny potential).
I dont think comparing the original "rare" planeswalkers to there "mythic" counterparts is really a fair comparison. By planeswalkers moving into mythic with shards of alara it allows them to be better since they are rarer. I mean why have another level of rarity if the cards are going to be equal in pwer to the previous level, it makes no sense. And no offense but Nicol Bolas is horribly costed and rarely if ever sees play. 8 mana should definitely be winning you the game then and there, not destroying target noncreature permanent and then doing nothing for the rest of the turn.
I think I kinda know what you're talking about. I altered one of the Avatars to have the same picture I use here on PureMTGO. Granted, it is kind of foolish since no one else can see it, but I like it. It would be sweet if we could upload our own avatars instead of having to use theirs.
I hear ya on that Menace. I went through and created brackets for all the cards into sets X Number - X Number = Mirrodin. It has helped a lot, but still makes it a pain. However, I have taken to altering the token art. They are easy to edit and find (using windows search). Plus it adds a nice "surprise" feature to the game when your opponent plays a token generator and you are greeted with altered art.
Glad you liked the T.I. inclusion. :-)
Not to mention how the planeswalkers have gotten drastically better (ie: abilities) with their mana costs changing only slightly or not at all. There was just an article written about that on MTG.com. The author seemed to make an argument, but forgot what he was talking about half way through it.
Examples:
Ajani Goldmane mana cost of 2WW vs Elspeth, Knight-Errant: 2WW
These aren't even close to the same power level, yet they have the same mana cost.
Ajani Goldmane vs Gideon Jura
Gideon is much better than Goldmane and for only the cost of 1 additional colorless mana.
Garruk Wildspeaker vs Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Remember when Garruk was showing up in 4x amounts in virtually every deck in standard? He was fetching around $40 each IRL and people thought that was outrageous. Now for a mana cost of 2UU you get a planeswalker with FOUR really good abilities. The massive increase in power level is totally obvious.
That is why the cost of mythics is so high. WOTC is ramping up the power level on these mythics. The only one, IMO, that is correctly costed would be Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Now THAT is exactly how it should feel when a planeswalker hits the table. It comes into play huge (usually using the +3 right away) and it dominates the game. When you give something the same power level but cost it at half, it distorts gameplay. Someone mentioned it earlier, the biggest problem with planeswalkers (and this is the real reason they are pricey) is because there are so few real answers to them. Especially against Jace 2.0. Your need to resolve something amazing to stop him, but therein lies the problem; you have to resolve it, and Jace is in blue, the color of counterspells. How many games have been won simply because a player resolved Jace 2.0? Well, using just this website, there have been TWO articles written just this week about winning with Jace in play. The guy is completely undercosted. WOTC messed up. If we want to talk about mythics skewing secondary prices, let's not include Jace 2.0. I think it's pretty clear that this guy was a mistake that hopefully they do not repeat.
kind of an understatement, can you imagine tryin to set these games up? youd have to set your blocks when joining and then itd have to run a check on your dekc based on what you just entered
no im refering more to players who are all waahhhh i cant compete because i cant afford X card...thats a losers excuse and its hard to argue against. People constantly whine they cant play legacy since they cant afford FoW, sorry there are plenty of non FoW decks. If you cant bend to play on of those too bad.
depending on when he pulled the data could make some difference..though the Phyrexian vs Coalition ones are selling for 7 currently
I resent that implication. I am sure you aren't the only one who builds decks from scratch.
That quote for negators cant be right. I have had 2 for a long time and been completely unable to sell them for anything reasonable. Certainly no offers near double digits much less 12 tickets.
suprisingly i agree with you, this would be a great supported format(as would most) but this one seems far more open than other formats. The only issue is I know currently wizards has no way to enforce the rules, and coding would seem to be really difficult legality wise.
Thanks. I figured the math would bear out to be something like that. I further believe that the median value of planeswalkers would be even higher. I'm not sure if these numbers favor my suspicions that planeswalkers as a card are not helping the game, but they certainly don't help the argument in their favor.
well ragu i did the hard part for you..
out of 105 mythics in print 20 are planeswalker cards which accounts for 19% of all mythics.
out of the total cost of a one of set of mythics the price is 602.70. A one of set of planeswalkers will run you 260.75.
So planewalkers account for 43.3% of the cost of the mythic set.
my math should be correct feel free to flame me if im wrong. But take what you will fro these numbers.
I respectfully would like to point out that 5 of the top 7 cards on your list are planeswalkers, and a lot of the complaints in this discussion seem to reference the powerlevels of some popular planeswalkers. I think that part of the problem is that whenever a planeswalker hits the board it changes the game state far more than nearly any equivilently costed card. The problem that I have with this is that there are so few ways to deal with them outright. I dont think green has anything capable of shutting down a planeswalker outside of combat in standard (and precious few moderately costed solutions in older formats.)
In my opinion it is very similar in some ways to having your opponent play a timewalk. Chances are you are going to waste at LEAST 1 turn dealing with the planeswalker. If you choose not to a planeswalker left unattended will quickly get out of hand and the longer you allow it to remain in play the more difficult it will be to handle. So you face this situation where if you don't deal with them immediately your chances of doing so in the future greatly diminish.
I personally feel that adding planeswalkers did little to advance the game while (I feel) damaging recruiting new players. I mean, who hasnt seen a new player come to their FLGS and sitting down, getting trounced by Elspeth (or whomever) only to find that the cost of the card they are facing is ludicrously high on the secondary market. I guess I just wish they had more in game methods for dealing with planeswalkers than above and beyond silver bullets like Oblivion Ring and Hexmage.
Had I the time I would like to determine what percentage of mythics are planeswalkers and compare that to what percentage of liquid value planeswalkers hold amongst all mythics. I am inclined to beleive that the values will be inverse.
This was A LOT of fun to read. Nice work.
I simply adored this article.
It really gives you good insight in a format that I wish Wizards would support more. I'm sure it, BYOS that is, would find a much larger following online than most formats, and for quite obvious reasons too. The room for creativity is just marvelous.
Thanks for your contribution, LE and I'll be looking forward to participating in the BYOS seasons once I return from Australia.