Actually, I don't play tribal at all which is exactly what I stated in my post, but thanks for reading it :) I didn't realize tribal didn't have sideboarding, that seems weird to me. If hardly anyone plays flying creatures then why doesn't everyone just run moat?
No i disagree that winning with Kokusho, winning through absolute unecessary amounts of kokusho is cheesy...like 6 at one time. Though I do love decks like that.
So techincally im just saying basic Kokusho+clone effects are not cheesy enough.
Simplify it even further, just pay out a redeemable pack voucher for ALL events. Then open up the store to accept those for ALL set packs including the off sale ones.
We already have the concept of an event ticket in place. This just extends that one step further.
Hi Katastrophe the next article will be all about the Coalition League, I've just started writing it. I'll link it to the bottom of my articles after that, I made sure there was enough space for an extra link.
ahh the sideboard argument...I assuming that you don;t play much tribal which is cool, but tribal does not have the benefit of a sideboard. Hence any deck that can win game 1 off of a moat, can do it games 2 and 3 as well. Im not saying cruel is bad, it's a great card. But the bird deck probably would have won just as often with different cards in the cruel and dream halls slots.
You should promote your Coalition League at the end of each of your articles. It's only a month away. I just joined the MTGO group today. At first I was unsure if it would be fun, and four+ boosters is kind of expensive, but then again it also gives me an excuse to crack some obscure packs. And I get to sit and think for an hour about which packs are best to buy/use.
I was lamenting this same fact the other day. I have what i want from urzas saga, the packs are very undervalued, and the drafts do not fire at anywhere near an amazing rate.
I understand that wotc sees all packs as 3.99 but cmon, all things are not created equal. my solution then is this, if these are eternal card pool formats and the fact that any pack can be wished up out of thin air in the aether, would it be so bad to allow people to pick the packs they win from blocks that are rotated out of extended? IE i win 3 rounds of a daily event, instead of getting 6 urzas packs, shouldnt i be able to pick up a draft set of mirage and tempest block if i wanted? seems like it might help what ever the most current "classic" draft set maintain there value if its not being given out to every one in prizes, and you can let people crack packs they wanna crack.
I know its a pipe dream and not likely to ever happen, but i would love to see it implented. ??Next week is nix tix mirage block? well ok ill just play a few legacy events and have those packs, the week after is nix tix ipa? oh ill play for a week and a half in legacy building up that draft set, and play in like 10.
theres only so much that the thrill of competiton and enjoyment of a format can push you into eventing. but with the way that this always happens, im far happyer just playing tp and testing with buddies/randoms, then going 3-1 in a de and feeling cheated by the prize pay out.
Yeah I've used and abused him now; he's retired for the moment in terms of deck consideration, he is pretty griefer if he combos right-- and that's not the effect I usually want to lay out there, I'm more about fun games and crazy combos. I'd much rather Rite of Replication an Orchard Warden, usually opponents don't ragequit or concede in disgust. Still Kokusho holds a special place in my heart; but for now he's enjoying a nice retirement villa in the bahamas, instead of gnawing faces. When it comes to Doppelganging though, he really is a great creature to copy-- unless you are on the receiving end.
Very nice Flippers, very unexpected. Birds eh? That was good.
The only criticism I have is this: Birds are very interesting but I'm sure they aren't the only option. You could have showed us a few other options too. Ah well, maybe a Part II?
Moat is powerful, I totally understand how impressive it is. I don't play tribal, but it doesn't take brain surgery to figure out how awesome it is.
However......Moat doesn't win games, it stalls them. It might be the reason for a game one victory, but much like dredge, people should be prepared in the sideboard.
Cruel wins games period......I've played so many Legacy matches which I've written about and trust me when I say this, Cruel is all that and a bag of chips! Players usually can't recover from a 6 card swing.
It might of appeared that Moat was the superstar, but playing single matches tends to skew the overall data.
Sphinges ftw! :D Not THAT slow with turn 3 vexing or turn 4 SoLTs (assuming help from Chalices or Cloudposts) or even Dreamhalls itself. Some spot removal as back up and all is well for the early game.
Classic packs were taken out of the store after release weeks because many players were purchasing those packs and then becoming frustrated when events (specifically, drafts) wouldn't fire.
Not the kind of complaint you are liking to see from a person who spends time at these or other Magic forums, I assume they make themselves known directly to WoTC through feedback.
There are really two "problems"
1) The interest in constructed staples for cards coming out of classic packs is wildly disproportionate with the number of people willing to play in a limited environment with those packs.
2) Because of the nature of the fact that the cards, specifically the rares, are actually competing with every other existing card ever made (as opposed to STD legal cards which compete with a much smaller subset), a wildly disproportionate number of the cards aren't ever going to be used in a constructed deck, casually or otherwise, ever.
There really isn't a solution to either of those problems. It's going to make the limited play very low and create an instant premium on the few good cards that are in the set. The Secondary market reflects this.
"@ Stealth, while Moat stops the ground game, it is cruel that sets up the card advantage. Cruel is the MVP most times,"
I agree Cruel is the better card to cast than Moat if you can play it early enough in the game due to its card advantage, Moat is just a stalling effect to gain you time.
The problem with any other tribe is card advantage Sage Owl and Raven Familiar are one of the best cards in the deck as there is no room for Ponder and Brainstorm effects as those spaces are already used up.
I feel other tribes would be a lot slower and have less chance of winning in time before you get a Dream Halls down.
Fun deck though a bit too pricy for me. The dream halls alone run $24 a play set, never mind the tutors. It is funny that the win con is one of the cheaper cards in the deck at less than a ticket each.
I will have to disagree and say nothing is Cheesier than a kicked Rite of Replication on Kokusho. I pulled that off a couple times to vicious slander and name-calling.
While you do have the right idea behind cruel raddman, I feel you are discounting the sheer power of Moat in the tribal environment. Very few people tend to run decks with flyers(i.e. Angels, dragons, demons, birds, spirits). They also neglect to run any enchantment/artifact destruction the majority of the time. The only reason I can think for this is because of the percentages of times that its a dead card. Personally I recommend creature based destruction like Indrik Stomphowler or Kor Sanctifiers if you can fit it. But Moat will win games own it own's with or without the cruel ultimatum advantage.
@Flippers, while I think the deck is great, Im going to have to question the use of birds. Dont get me wrong it did work for you. I just feel there are better tribes that could have been used. Some to consider off the top of my head...
U/B/r Elementals
U/B or U/R Humans
U/B/r Dragons
Just some ideas to consider if birds aren't your thing.
I particularly like the U/B/r dragons since you can now cast free Kokusho's and Keiga's
I was curious about your take on Sphinges since I wrote a whole article based on my Esper variants of said deck. Mine was recursive with Patriarch's Bidding, using Vexing Sphinx and Sphinx of Lost Truths to put them in the grave first. I see you went monoblue, which to me seems risky with the amount of potential monocolor hate out there (Iona for example often shows up turn 2 in this format thanks to exhume, animate dead etc.)
An Interesting use of Sphinx of Magosi. I would not have included training grounds for just that card but it definitely looks like part of a fun combo. Activate Sphinx at BOTES, then use the Winds trigger to bounce something of theirs (blocking the fliers no doubt) and your man o war to rid yourself of other possible fliers.
I'm not 100% convinced by Gravitational Shift but it certainly seems to be in your favor here. Sphinx is the one tribal type that really nails home the air superiority concept. Even Angel isn't as tough. I was discussing this very idea with AJ_Impy recently.
The blue/black shifters deck is intriguing. I've been experimenting/tinkering with my version of this archetype for a while now. I built a really bad version in grixis (for ultimatums and other funky includes) but ultimately scrapped it as too slow. Of course using medallions would help but only on the non colored portions. No help with Ultimatum pulling. I am not a huge fan of winning via Kokusho in casual as it tends to put people on tilt. Myself included. As cheesy wins go it doesn't get a lot cheesier.
I have to say it's pretty brave to write an article about how you took a copied deck and then went and repeatedly lost in the 2-man queues. I have written about my failures before, but I usually try to include points on how I've tried to improve or what lessons I've learned from the experiences. This article seems like it is baiting someone to criticize you.
If anything I think the major points of this article are
1. The tournament practice room is no help at all and it's kind of a misnamed room.
2. Don't play Magic Online when you're sick.
I don't think anyone playing eternal constructed events is really happy with the current prize pack policy. I think most of us either grudgingly bear with it or wait for the rare opportunities when the prize packs actually have a reasonable value associated with them.
However, there are some fundamental problems with getting things changed.
1. WotC doesn't have a strong interest in the secondary market for packs and singles. It also can't have a strong interest in the secondary market for legal reasons.
Therefore it is my opinion that any appeal to WotC needs to be made on the basis of increasing tournament interest, reducing kinks in the system, and tournament replayability rather than secondary market value.
2. There is noticeably less interest in playing older cards and older sets, and there is little that can be done about it. The newer sets are better designed for limited play, and they are new and shiny. Nostalgia can only go so far.
The one problem that I believe can and should be addressed is the fact that with older sets, you have a tendancy to be stuck with older somewhat obsolete prize packs that include a lot of incomplete draft sets.
3. Classic packs are taken out of the store after a short run time so that newer players are not stuck with them.
I don't know the details hopefully someone else does, but I've heard this was done because of negative feedback from newer players who bought those classic packs and couldn't use them right away.
------------
I agree with you points on pack sinks, there is not a very good balance with the ticket only sealed deck tournaments. I would also love to get leagues back, however I believe it will be a while before they return.
I think you have some good ideas, and it's good to keep bringing this concerns up, however there are certain things that WotC can't and won't do for various reasons.
Actually, I don't play tribal at all which is exactly what I stated in my post, but thanks for reading it :) I didn't realize tribal didn't have sideboarding, that seems weird to me. If hardly anyone plays flying creatures then why doesn't everyone just run moat?
How come I've never thought of that??? So awesome!
No i disagree that winning with Kokusho, winning through absolute unecessary amounts of kokusho is cheesy...like 6 at one time. Though I do love decks like that.
So techincally im just saying basic Kokusho+clone effects are not cheesy enough.
Simplify it even further, just pay out a redeemable pack voucher for ALL events. Then open up the store to accept those for ALL set packs including the off sale ones.
We already have the concept of an event ticket in place. This just extends that one step further.
Hi Katastrophe the next article will be all about the Coalition League, I've just started writing it. I'll link it to the bottom of my articles after that, I made sure there was enough space for an extra link.
Great to have you on board.
ahh the sideboard argument...I assuming that you don;t play much tribal which is cool, but tribal does not have the benefit of a sideboard. Hence any deck that can win game 1 off of a moat, can do it games 2 and 3 as well. Im not saying cruel is bad, it's a great card. But the bird deck probably would have won just as often with different cards in the cruel and dream halls slots.
Yes birds are not the only option there are many others but with game reports there is only enough room for a deck an article.
A part II is a possibility for a future article.
You should promote your Coalition League at the end of each of your articles. It's only a month away. I just joined the MTGO group today. At first I was unsure if it would be fun, and four+ boosters is kind of expensive, but then again it also gives me an excuse to crack some obscure packs. And I get to sit and think for an hour about which packs are best to buy/use.
I was lamenting this same fact the other day. I have what i want from urzas saga, the packs are very undervalued, and the drafts do not fire at anywhere near an amazing rate.
I understand that wotc sees all packs as 3.99 but cmon, all things are not created equal. my solution then is this, if these are eternal card pool formats and the fact that any pack can be wished up out of thin air in the aether, would it be so bad to allow people to pick the packs they win from blocks that are rotated out of extended? IE i win 3 rounds of a daily event, instead of getting 6 urzas packs, shouldnt i be able to pick up a draft set of mirage and tempest block if i wanted? seems like it might help what ever the most current "classic" draft set maintain there value if its not being given out to every one in prizes, and you can let people crack packs they wanna crack.
I know its a pipe dream and not likely to ever happen, but i would love to see it implented. ??Next week is nix tix mirage block? well ok ill just play a few legacy events and have those packs, the week after is nix tix ipa? oh ill play for a week and a half in legacy building up that draft set, and play in like 10.
theres only so much that the thrill of competiton and enjoyment of a format can push you into eventing. but with the way that this always happens, im far happyer just playing tp and testing with buddies/randoms, then going 3-1 in a de and feeling cheated by the prize pay out.
Yeah I've used and abused him now; he's retired for the moment in terms of deck consideration, he is pretty griefer if he combos right-- and that's not the effect I usually want to lay out there, I'm more about fun games and crazy combos. I'd much rather Rite of Replication an Orchard Warden, usually opponents don't ragequit or concede in disgust. Still Kokusho holds a special place in my heart; but for now he's enjoying a nice retirement villa in the bahamas, instead of gnawing faces. When it comes to Doppelganging though, he really is a great creature to copy-- unless you are on the receiving end.
Very nice Flippers, very unexpected. Birds eh? That was good.
The only criticism I have is this: Birds are very interesting but I'm sure they aren't the only option. You could have showed us a few other options too. Ah well, maybe a Part II?
This was good, thanks.
LE
Moat is powerful, I totally understand how impressive it is. I don't play tribal, but it doesn't take brain surgery to figure out how awesome it is.
However......Moat doesn't win games, it stalls them. It might be the reason for a game one victory, but much like dredge, people should be prepared in the sideboard.
Cruel wins games period......I've played so many Legacy matches which I've written about and trust me when I say this, Cruel is all that and a bag of chips! Players usually can't recover from a 6 card swing.
It might of appeared that Moat was the superstar, but playing single matches tends to skew the overall data.
Sphinges ftw! :D Not THAT slow with turn 3 vexing or turn 4 SoLTs (assuming help from Chalices or Cloudposts) or even Dreamhalls itself. Some spot removal as back up and all is well for the early game.
Classic packs were taken out of the store after release weeks because many players were purchasing those packs and then becoming frustrated when events (specifically, drafts) wouldn't fire.
Not the kind of complaint you are liking to see from a person who spends time at these or other Magic forums, I assume they make themselves known directly to WoTC through feedback.
There are really two "problems"
1) The interest in constructed staples for cards coming out of classic packs is wildly disproportionate with the number of people willing to play in a limited environment with those packs.
2) Because of the nature of the fact that the cards, specifically the rares, are actually competing with every other existing card ever made (as opposed to STD legal cards which compete with a much smaller subset), a wildly disproportionate number of the cards aren't ever going to be used in a constructed deck, casually or otherwise, ever.
There really isn't a solution to either of those problems. It's going to make the limited play very low and create an instant premium on the few good cards that are in the set. The Secondary market reflects this.
"@ Stealth, while Moat stops the ground game, it is cruel that sets up the card advantage. Cruel is the MVP most times,"
I agree Cruel is the better card to cast than Moat if you can play it early enough in the game due to its card advantage, Moat is just a stalling effect to gain you time.
The problem with any other tribe is card advantage Sage Owl and Raven Familiar are one of the best cards in the deck as there is no room for Ponder and Brainstorm effects as those spaces are already used up.
I feel other tribes would be a lot slower and have less chance of winning in time before you get a Dream Halls down.
So by disagreeing you really mean you agree...
Fun deck though a bit too pricy for me. The dream halls alone run $24 a play set, never mind the tutors. It is funny that the win con is one of the cheaper cards in the deck at less than a ticket each.
I will have to disagree and say nothing is Cheesier than a kicked Rite of Replication on Kokusho. I pulled that off a couple times to vicious slander and name-calling.
While you do have the right idea behind cruel raddman, I feel you are discounting the sheer power of Moat in the tribal environment. Very few people tend to run decks with flyers(i.e. Angels, dragons, demons, birds, spirits). They also neglect to run any enchantment/artifact destruction the majority of the time. The only reason I can think for this is because of the percentages of times that its a dead card. Personally I recommend creature based destruction like Indrik Stomphowler or Kor Sanctifiers if you can fit it. But Moat will win games own it own's with or without the cruel ultimatum advantage.
@Flippers, while I think the deck is great, Im going to have to question the use of birds. Dont get me wrong it did work for you. I just feel there are better tribes that could have been used. Some to consider off the top of my head...
U/B/r Elementals
U/B or U/R Humans
U/B/r Dragons
Just some ideas to consider if birds aren't your thing.
I particularly like the U/B/r dragons since you can now cast free Kokusho's and Keiga's
I was curious about your take on Sphinges since I wrote a whole article based on my Esper variants of said deck. Mine was recursive with Patriarch's Bidding, using Vexing Sphinx and Sphinx of Lost Truths to put them in the grave first. I see you went monoblue, which to me seems risky with the amount of potential monocolor hate out there (Iona for example often shows up turn 2 in this format thanks to exhume, animate dead etc.)
An Interesting use of Sphinx of Magosi. I would not have included training grounds for just that card but it definitely looks like part of a fun combo. Activate Sphinx at BOTES, then use the Winds trigger to bounce something of theirs (blocking the fliers no doubt) and your man o war to rid yourself of other possible fliers.
I'm not 100% convinced by Gravitational Shift but it certainly seems to be in your favor here. Sphinx is the one tribal type that really nails home the air superiority concept. Even Angel isn't as tough. I was discussing this very idea with AJ_Impy recently.
The blue/black shifters deck is intriguing. I've been experimenting/tinkering with my version of this archetype for a while now. I built a really bad version in grixis (for ultimatums and other funky includes) but ultimately scrapped it as too slow. Of course using medallions would help but only on the non colored portions. No help with Ultimatum pulling. I am not a huge fan of winning via Kokusho in casual as it tends to put people on tilt. Myself included. As cheesy wins go it doesn't get a lot cheesier.
I have to say it's pretty brave to write an article about how you took a copied deck and then went and repeatedly lost in the 2-man queues. I have written about my failures before, but I usually try to include points on how I've tried to improve or what lessons I've learned from the experiences. This article seems like it is baiting someone to criticize you.
If anything I think the major points of this article are
1. The tournament practice room is no help at all and it's kind of a misnamed room.
2. Don't play Magic Online when you're sick.
I hope you feel better soon.
feel better by the way.
I'm pretty sure Pete meant to say Next Level Bant (or Bant Vengevine) as opposed to Naya Vengevine in terms of the deck list naming.
-Sebastian
I don't think anyone playing eternal constructed events is really happy with the current prize pack policy. I think most of us either grudgingly bear with it or wait for the rare opportunities when the prize packs actually have a reasonable value associated with them.
However, there are some fundamental problems with getting things changed.
1. WotC doesn't have a strong interest in the secondary market for packs and singles. It also can't have a strong interest in the secondary market for legal reasons.
Therefore it is my opinion that any appeal to WotC needs to be made on the basis of increasing tournament interest, reducing kinks in the system, and tournament replayability rather than secondary market value.
2. There is noticeably less interest in playing older cards and older sets, and there is little that can be done about it. The newer sets are better designed for limited play, and they are new and shiny. Nostalgia can only go so far.
The one problem that I believe can and should be addressed is the fact that with older sets, you have a tendancy to be stuck with older somewhat obsolete prize packs that include a lot of incomplete draft sets.
3. Classic packs are taken out of the store after a short run time so that newer players are not stuck with them.
I don't know the details hopefully someone else does, but I've heard this was done because of negative feedback from newer players who bought those classic packs and couldn't use them right away.
------------
I agree with you points on pack sinks, there is not a very good balance with the ticket only sealed deck tournaments. I would also love to get leagues back, however I believe it will be a while before they return.
I think you have some good ideas, and it's good to keep bringing this concerns up, however there are certain things that WotC can't and won't do for various reasons.