I pretty much love to dissect new sets in a similar vein in order to try and come up with new decks for all sorts of formats. Did you read my last article? I showcased Maeyel the Anima as a Commander that can help slap out big eldrazi fatties.
During the prerelease I opened a pack and got me a Linvala, Keeper of Silence, which I can't over-appreciate enough. It locks down so many creatures. I've made an all white commander deck before, but now she's my default mono-white commander.
Finally I gotta Say TukTuk is underrated, and certainly isn't general material, but he can be abused in weird ways, and he's got such a unique ability that I love to fiddle around with decks that can use and abuse him, so I find a lot of fun-value in him, but the only commander deck he's made it into thus far has been my Kresh, the Bloodbraided.
This is a format I know absolutely nothing about. However, after reading this I feel like I have gained some valuable insight into this format.
The cards in the top 5 are great picks. Most of all Realms Uncharted. Very solid card that has made a showing in Legacy.
Awakening Zone is really solid for its price. Last night in the STD DE I really had to target that card to keep from loosing to the RG Token/Overrun deck in the final round of that event as I fought for a 3-1 finish. I was surprised at the power of the deck list being able to overrun turn 4 for the kill. It took me back to last STD season and the GW decks of the time.
BTW I have to get you to tell me the way you pop up the card pictures like that. It really does add a lot to the overall look of your articles.
I'd be keen to see them go and be replaced by slightly more conditional removal, personally. The likes of burn, -x/-x or stuff which only hits non-black, etc.
I'd also be very keen on some kind of planeswalker removal spell, hexmage and o-ring are ok, but most burn spells won't kill "most" planeswalkers outright, and with planeswalkers being absolutely everywhere right now, I'd like to see a more efficient way to kill them.
As far as I know, Warren Instigator is the closest to anything that could even possibly be playable, and that's only with Teetering Peaks or Goblin Bushwhacker taking advantage of its double-strike.
And even then, that's garbage.
The only 1-drops remotely playable are Dragonmaster Outcast and Skitter of Lizards, both of which go against every basic rule of RDW. (Why is it turn 6 and you haven't won yet? Or at least started a race?)
So as far as it goes, Kiln Fiend really is the best 2 or 1-drop not already present in the deck. However, what needs to be examined is whether Kiln Fiend should be in there in place of a flat-out burn spell. And THAT is where I'll leave you guys to decide. XD (Since I have no true playtest experience with competitive RDW.)
I chosed one where the third player didn't have any choices since it was simpler to write down... A three player game where the third player does not have any choice just makes it MORE likely that it wouldn't change any given property (like MSNE=minimax). Simple example with choices that matters for everybody:
game:
First choice for player 3:
-1,-1,2 0,0,0
0,0,0 0,0,0
Second choice for player 3:
0,0,0 0,0,0
0,0,0 -2,-2,4
Nash equlibria:
(1,0),(0,1),(x,1-x) for any x (between 0 and 1) is a NE (there are uncountable many so I am not going to write them down explicitly).
(0,1),(1,0),(x,1-x) for any x (between 0 and 1) is a NE like before.
(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(x,1-x) where x is the number x=-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2)))/(1-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2))))
There might be others I missed.
Minimax:
(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(x,1-x) where x is the number x=-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2)))/(1-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2))))
Again, MSNE!=Minimax... I am not going to find any other example now (this was quite complex to calculate), so just find some wierd reason why this does not fit into your understanding of a three player zero-sum game and you won the discussion :)
A few points: The deck with Jace 2.0 isn't a casual deck. I did all my testing with that deck in the tournament practice room because it belongs there.
Also casual decks aren't always budget decks whereas budget decks most of the time are casual decks. I most of the time build VERY casual decks with tons of expensive cards but they are in the end simple casual decks. Just check the last Nicol Bolas deck and you'll see what I mean. It mostly works in the Casual Room yet it isn't a very cheap deck.
Having said Nicol Bolas, yes, I tried hard to make it a full Grixis deck but all the times I ended up with a boring Cruel Control deck. You already know that deck but this version is a lot more entertaining and fun to play.
And Hellspark is useless as well for that same reason.
Plain and simple, Kiln Fiend only functions well in Burn Heavy RDW. And since that deck is just so easily dealt with these days, Kiln Fiend just isn't gonna cut it right now.
I really like Kiln Fiend, but its hype is worse than its bite as far as Standard goes.
If it's rare that you are going to do anything but cycle a card then it is a waste of a sot anyways. burn doesn't have an extra red mana laying around anyways.
Kiln fiend is an iffy main deck card because it turns so much removal on in decks, permanents are a liability in this deck. It's also a miserable late game topdeck where something like Keldon Marauders is still relevant damage.
My friend trounced me with a very similar (all RoE) version of this deck in Pauper, and Might of the Masses was the key. Once he had more Eldrazi tokens than I had blocks, he could swing in, let me declare blockers, then drop MotM on the unblocked (and seemingly harmless) token, ramping him up. It's a 3rd layer win condition that works in conjunction with the Raid Bombardment, and works very very well.
As I said: MSNE = minimax for two player zero sum games. So in the following I will show a example of a three player zero-sum where it differs and one with 2 players non-zero sum, where it differs. The three player game is even quite simple (as such things go).
Non-zero sum two players, example:
Game (called chicken) - non-zero sum two player game. The value is -1/1000:
0,0 -1,1
1,-1 -1000,-1000
(actions could be drive or evade. If both drives you hit each other. if one drives and the other evades, the driver gets one and if both evades nothing happens).
The MSNE are:
(1,0),(0,1) - pure NE, first row, second collumn
(0,1),(1,0) - pure NE, second collumn, first row
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000) - mixed
The Minimax solution is:
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000)
Three player zero sum game. To make it simple the third player only got one action (so his strategy is trivial) and gets minus the sum of the two other players (so if the first gets x and the second y, the third gets -(x+y)). This clearly makes it zero sum. Again the value is -1/1000:
0,0,0 -1,1,0
1,-1,0 -1000,-1000,2000
The MSNE are:
(1,0),(0,1),(1) - pure NE, first row, second collumn,the third player plays his lone action
(0,1),(1,0),(1) - pure NE, second collumn, first row,the third player plays his lone action
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000),(1) - mixed
The Minimax solution is
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000),(1)
As you can see Minimax does not correspond to MSNE in either case. You will not get them to be the same thing for larger numbers of players either, naturally. In real life the non-minimax solutions are not that interesting because (as I said) you would have to get ppl to play them first.
Interesting article. In order to keep it from looking like a wall of text, you may want to underline or bold each of the headings, like "Round 3 v Devastating Red." This breaks things up a little and helps the reader.
Actually, my favorite part of the article is that you gave yourself 5 stars!
not really, personally i think the three colors that are good at removal just have good tools. Dont forget some of the best removal rotates later this year. Resulting in us losing Pulse, Terminate, Path, and others unless they are reprinted. So we will need removal to fill the void.
true
we need a good quality of removals to deal with good creatures, but I dont think we need the quantity of removal we currently have
Only in black you have 10 of them : doomblade, assassinate, smother, wretched banquet,bone splinters, fleshbag marauders, executionner capsule, vendetta, consumming vapor, malakir ...and i even didnt include damage card a la tendrils of corruption, drag down, last kiss, and no mass removal/damage like meek, infest. Red has the same count on burn, and white has many removals also. Isnt it a bit too much honestly ?
edit : it was a reply to shards as well, i again misclicked ...
Scry is a very nice ability and I am glad it's back.
To add magma jet would be good, but I really hope there will be a regulation about the amount of removals currently available in standard which are making the format horribly devastating. Only my opinion though.
Even if I think I perfectly understood what you meant, I think it also important to say that casual decking is different than budget decking. An expansive card could be used in a casual deck as the competitiveness dont come from the price of the card, but from the effiency of the deck in a defined meta (regarding average speed, answer, match up ...).
That said, I think you are totaly correct in saying that most part of the audience wont have 3 Jaces and a mentioned substitute could be fine (even if I really dont have a clue of what could currently replace 3 Jace with the same effect on the ground ...). Plus Jace is probably one of the easiest (if not the easiest) card choice as if you run blue, almost all the time a deck without him is just worse than a deck running it in the current standard meta.
The biggest regret I have is that the "envy" Nicol Bolas deck is more a Sarkhan/jund deck than a real bolas deck in a casual view... (no slave and less bolas than sarkhan). I dont have any doubt about the fact this deck is more efficient with this version but I would have loved to see a real bolas deck different than usual grixis approach.
the best substitute for Jace 2.0 is Jace 1.0 His abilities may not be the same or even on par, but Jace 1.0 acts a free kill spell for their newer model, and if you play yours first they have to spend time removing it before playing theirs.
totally agreed in that aspect. Hopefully there is good tourney quality scry in other colors. I would say possibly a return of Magma Jet but with Lightning Bolt already spoiled in M11, I don't know if thats just a fantasy or not. Serum Visions would be nice too, just in case they decide to replace ponder.
there is already plenty of conditional removal, why some ppeople want more i dont understand
I pretty much love to dissect new sets in a similar vein in order to try and come up with new decks for all sorts of formats. Did you read my last article? I showcased Maeyel the Anima as a Commander that can help slap out big eldrazi fatties.
During the prerelease I opened a pack and got me a Linvala, Keeper of Silence, which I can't over-appreciate enough. It locks down so many creatures. I've made an all white commander deck before, but now she's my default mono-white commander.
Finally I gotta Say TukTuk is underrated, and certainly isn't general material, but he can be abused in weird ways, and he's got such a unique ability that I love to fiddle around with decks that can use and abuse him, so I find a lot of fun-value in him, but the only commander deck he's made it into thus far has been my Kresh, the Bloodbraided.
This is a format I know absolutely nothing about. However, after reading this I feel like I have gained some valuable insight into this format.
The cards in the top 5 are great picks. Most of all Realms Uncharted. Very solid card that has made a showing in Legacy.
Awakening Zone is really solid for its price. Last night in the STD DE I really had to target that card to keep from loosing to the RG Token/Overrun deck in the final round of that event as I fought for a 3-1 finish. I was surprised at the power of the deck list being able to overrun turn 4 for the kill. It took me back to last STD season and the GW decks of the time.
BTW I have to get you to tell me the way you pop up the card pictures like that. It really does add a lot to the overall look of your articles.
I'd be keen to see them go and be replaced by slightly more conditional removal, personally. The likes of burn, -x/-x or stuff which only hits non-black, etc.
I'd also be very keen on some kind of planeswalker removal spell, hexmage and o-ring are ok, but most burn spells won't kill "most" planeswalkers outright, and with planeswalkers being absolutely everywhere right now, I'd like to see a more efficient way to kill them.
As far as I know, Warren Instigator is the closest to anything that could even possibly be playable, and that's only with Teetering Peaks or Goblin Bushwhacker taking advantage of its double-strike.
And even then, that's garbage.
The only 1-drops remotely playable are Dragonmaster Outcast and Skitter of Lizards, both of which go against every basic rule of RDW. (Why is it turn 6 and you haven't won yet? Or at least started a race?)
So as far as it goes, Kiln Fiend really is the best 2 or 1-drop not already present in the deck. However, what needs to be examined is whether Kiln Fiend should be in there in place of a flat-out burn spell. And THAT is where I'll leave you guys to decide. XD (Since I have no true playtest experience with competitive RDW.)
I chosed one where the third player didn't have any choices since it was simpler to write down... A three player game where the third player does not have any choice just makes it MORE likely that it wouldn't change any given property (like MSNE=minimax). Simple example with choices that matters for everybody:
game:
First choice for player 3:
-1,-1,2 0,0,0
0,0,0 0,0,0
Second choice for player 3:
0,0,0 0,0,0
0,0,0 -2,-2,4
Nash equlibria:
(1,0),(0,1),(x,1-x) for any x (between 0 and 1) is a NE (there are uncountable many so I am not going to write them down explicitly).
(0,1),(1,0),(x,1-x) for any x (between 0 and 1) is a NE like before.
(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(x,1-x) where x is the number x=-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2)))/(1-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2))))
There might be others I missed.
Minimax:
(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(2-sqrt(2),1-(2-sqrt(2)),(x,1-x) where x is the number x=-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2)))/(1-2(1-(2-sqrt(2))/(1-(2-sqrt(2))))
Again, MSNE!=Minimax... I am not going to find any other example now (this was quite complex to calculate), so just find some wierd reason why this does not fit into your understanding of a three player zero-sum game and you won the discussion :)
A few points: The deck with Jace 2.0 isn't a casual deck. I did all my testing with that deck in the tournament practice room because it belongs there.
Also casual decks aren't always budget decks whereas budget decks most of the time are casual decks. I most of the time build VERY casual decks with tons of expensive cards but they are in the end simple casual decks. Just check the last Nicol Bolas deck and you'll see what I mean. It mostly works in the Casual Room yet it isn't a very cheap deck.
Having said Nicol Bolas, yes, I tried hard to make it a full Grixis deck but all the times I ended up with a boring Cruel Control deck. You already know that deck but this version is a lot more entertaining and fun to play.
Thanks again for the comments.
LE
does red have any affordable two-drops that are good enough to play? Mainly not the 7 ticket kargan whats-it-called?
I didn't try Sphinx of Magosi to be honest, but yes, it is at least worth a try. Good thinking!
LE
And Hellspark is useless as well for that same reason.
Plain and simple, Kiln Fiend only functions well in Burn Heavy RDW. And since that deck is just so easily dealt with these days, Kiln Fiend just isn't gonna cut it right now.
I really like Kiln Fiend, but its hype is worse than its bite as far as Standard goes.
That is not a three player game, as player three does not have any choices. It is a two player game completely unrelated to the discussion at hand.
If it's rare that you are going to do anything but cycle a card then it is a waste of a sot anyways. burn doesn't have an extra red mana laying around anyways.
Kiln fiend is an iffy main deck card because it turns so much removal on in decks, permanents are a liability in this deck. It's also a miserable late game topdeck where something like Keldon Marauders is still relevant damage.
Another great read, LE. One question, wouldn't Sphinx of Magosi be better than Sphinx of Lost Truths?
My friend trounced me with a very similar (all RoE) version of this deck in Pauper, and Might of the Masses was the key. Once he had more Eldrazi tokens than I had blocks, he could swing in, let me declare blockers, then drop MotM on the unblocked (and seemingly harmless) token, ramping him up. It's a 3rd layer win condition that works in conjunction with the Raid Bombardment, and works very very well.
When I use tab to move from one window to the next it does that.
As I said: MSNE = minimax for two player zero sum games. So in the following I will show a example of a three player zero-sum where it differs and one with 2 players non-zero sum, where it differs. The three player game is even quite simple (as such things go).
Non-zero sum two players, example:
Game (called chicken) - non-zero sum two player game. The value is -1/1000:
0,0 -1,1
1,-1 -1000,-1000
(actions could be drive or evade. If both drives you hit each other. if one drives and the other evades, the driver gets one and if both evades nothing happens).
The MSNE are:
(1,0),(0,1) - pure NE, first row, second collumn
(0,1),(1,0) - pure NE, second collumn, first row
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000) - mixed
The Minimax solution is:
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000)
Three player zero sum game. To make it simple the third player only got one action (so his strategy is trivial) and gets minus the sum of the two other players (so if the first gets x and the second y, the third gets -(x+y)). This clearly makes it zero sum. Again the value is -1/1000:
0,0,0 -1,1,0
1,-1,0 -1000,-1000,2000
The MSNE are:
(1,0),(0,1),(1) - pure NE, first row, second collumn,the third player plays his lone action
(0,1),(1,0),(1) - pure NE, second collumn, first row,the third player plays his lone action
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000),(1) - mixed
The Minimax solution is
(999/1000,1/1000),(999/1000,1/1000),(1)
As you can see Minimax does not correspond to MSNE in either case. You will not get them to be the same thing for larger numbers of players either, naturally. In real life the non-minimax solutions are not that interesting because (as I said) you would have to get ppl to play them first.
Interesting article. In order to keep it from looking like a wall of text, you may want to underline or bold each of the headings, like "Round 3 v Devastating Red." This breaks things up a little and helps the reader.
Actually, my favorite part of the article is that you gave yourself 5 stars!
not really, personally i think the three colors that are good at removal just have good tools. Dont forget some of the best removal rotates later this year. Resulting in us losing Pulse, Terminate, Path, and others unless they are reprinted. So we will need removal to fill the void.
true
we need a good quality of removals to deal with good creatures, but I dont think we need the quantity of removal we currently have
Only in black you have 10 of them : doomblade, assassinate, smother, wretched banquet,bone splinters, fleshbag marauders, executionner capsule, vendetta, consumming vapor, malakir ...and i even didnt include damage card a la tendrils of corruption, drag down, last kiss, and no mass removal/damage like meek, infest. Red has the same count on burn, and white has many removals also. Isnt it a bit too much honestly ?
edit : it was a reply to shards as well, i again misclicked ...
The better creatures we have been getting the past few blocks call for better removal.
This game is zero sum, so (again) you want the same solution here.
Scry is a very nice ability and I am glad it's back.
To add magma jet would be good, but I really hope there will be a regulation about the amount of removals currently available in standard which are making the format horribly devastating. Only my opinion though.
Even if I think I perfectly understood what you meant, I think it also important to say that casual decking is different than budget decking. An expansive card could be used in a casual deck as the competitiveness dont come from the price of the card, but from the effiency of the deck in a defined meta (regarding average speed, answer, match up ...).
That said, I think you are totaly correct in saying that most part of the audience wont have 3 Jaces and a mentioned substitute could be fine (even if I really dont have a clue of what could currently replace 3 Jace with the same effect on the ground ...). Plus Jace is probably one of the easiest (if not the easiest) card choice as if you run blue, almost all the time a deck without him is just worse than a deck running it in the current standard meta.
The biggest regret I have is that the "envy" Nicol Bolas deck is more a Sarkhan/jund deck than a real bolas deck in a casual view... (no slave and less bolas than sarkhan). I dont have any doubt about the fact this deck is more efficient with this version but I would have loved to see a real bolas deck different than usual grixis approach.
the best substitute for Jace 2.0 is Jace 1.0 His abilities may not be the same or even on par, but Jace 1.0 acts a free kill spell for their newer model, and if you play yours first they have to spend time removing it before playing theirs.
totally agreed in that aspect. Hopefully there is good tourney quality scry in other colors. I would say possibly a return of Magma Jet but with Lightning Bolt already spoiled in M11, I don't know if thats just a fantasy or not. Serum Visions would be nice too, just in case they decide to replace ponder.