the reason I stopped coming around is basically because of a lack of time, I really wish I could have made the 2hg... I spent lots of time testing through some ideas to bring in and give a tribal deck an edge because of 2hg... but any ways... I did find it get really boring because I started playing mono red gobos, mono red eles, mono red eles... red red red red red red... hell I was even running boros to death in any number of ways, gobos, spirits, giants... just got stale
After some more playtesting I have come up with my final version. I know that mine is a little on the expensive side, however I had the cards to do it so I tried to make this as competitive as possible againts todays meta decks and I am proud to say that I have won a few packs even with this deck!
Heres what I have come up with:
Main
3 Acidic Slime
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Wall of Denial
2 Pelakka Wurm
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
3 Path to Exile
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Day of Judgement
1 Acidic Slime
And im telling you Wall of Denial is by far the best wall in standard, Jund has no way of removing it and it slows everybody down enough to get which ever combo suits you best out there for the win :) Again thanks to Splendid Belt for this idea, I have had a great time fooling around with this deck and this is by far my most exciting deck to play!
(1) I never played Extended. Guess I wasn`t bribed enough. Probably won`t now either. (2) over-extended, starting at masques due to reprint policy, carries an implied promise to reprint. So they either commit to that or it just inherits the Legacy complaints. (3) @million: Implied future value does not equal instant price. 2 years clearly is enough lead time to keep prices stable with a gradual decline. As evidence I present the entire concept of Standard pricing. So announcing before a season would let players make informed decions while cards still had value. (4) It occurs to me that this decreases the Std->Ext price, which makes Std cards better value, which pushes their price up. Higher Std prices and more current pack sales. Interesting, Wizards...
I think overlapping cards from a ramp strategy with cards from a token-based strategy isn't as bad as you suggest. While there is some anti-synergy involved, you also have access to a broader selection of win conditions, some of which can even fit at the low end of the mana curve like Bloodthrone Vampire. Something like Broodwarden or the Bloodthrone can also make the other guy unwilling to swing in on the ground in mid-game, then you can sac spawn to cast a fattie later. Or maybe Pennon Blade lets you get a few profitable attacks in early before you sac 'em. Also, if you hit 7-8 lands you may reach a point where you need few or no spawn alive to be able to cast all your spells anyway, at which point the anti-synergy is pretty minimal.
Worst case, you get in a situation where you must choose to use the spawn one way (bring out Artisan or Crusher) or another way (sac 'em to Magmaw or swarm in damage with Broodwarden but lose some to blockers, go for one big fatal hit with Bloodthrone Vampire, etc). I would say this is "skill testing" more than "bad". You have to read which of the tools in your hand is more likely to earn the win. In an ideal situation, it might turn out that either route would win and you're golden. Failing that, reaching a game-state where you can win if your playskill is high enough to make the best choice, thats your goal in Magic. Not necessarily to strive for a gamestate so good you can't possibly fail to see the way to win. That's better when it happens, but harder to accomplish!
In constructed, a deck with a plan B and maybe even a plan C has advantages over one with only a plan A like Boros Bushwhacker. The same can apply in limited. Granted, if I was trying to put some token-deck cornerstones in a ramp deck (or vice versa) I would lean more towards certain of them (like a Pennon Blade), and more away from others, depending on the level of anti-synergy involved. But I like mixing them up a little, especially if I can get a deck with 7-9 token producing spells.
Even in the pure ramp deck, you haven't simplified token usage to an automatic, no-brainer thing. Any deck that makes tokens has you making decisions about when to use them to chump block, and when to save them to use for mana.
In a hybrid deck, you might have to decide whether with your given hand, the opponent's deck, and the board state they serve you best as chumpers, rampers, or fuel for one of your "token likers" and if so, which one! But having a resource that lets you use it several different ways means you have flexibility and options, which is useful. A situation where you have 5 land, 3 spawn, and two Crushers in hand doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than having 5 land, 3 spawn, and a Broodwarden and Crusher in hand. The former case you have an extra guy you can't cast for a while, the latter case you have two options, each of which might be better in different situations.
I don't think a Mortician Beetle would be at all upset if you sacced all your spawn tokens to ramp out a fattie, either! He's a token deck card, but the anti-synergy isn't too bad with him.
My biggest concern would be, if only 2-3 cards of your ramping does it by making tokens, token-loving cards are often going to do very little. If you get a ton of Ondu Giants, Overgrown Battlements, etc. but little spawn, then I wouldn't want to mix. But I value spawn producers very highly - if you're in a draft pod where other people value them highly enough, mixing the archetypes is not so viable. I'd only do it if I got a pretty good number of spawn producers early. I think if you're starting more from a token-archetype base and adding in a few fattie-ramp style finishers, there might not be as much downside as splashing tokeny guys in the ramp deck.
I sat down tonight and read all the ROE limited articles you wrote in one sitting. Then I played my first ROE draft. I started with a blue white elevator but I was getting nothing. I switched hard to green in second pack and got a nice curve with that stuff. I ended up playing a G/W/u aura deck. The drake aura is very good with the snake one. I came in second in that and felt like I had a huge heads up with advice like stacking totems can be good. I will be looking forward to the next installment.
The Sejiri Steppe is ussualy used as a defense option rather then an agro option. You simply tap the Kight of Reliquary to get a Steppe in responce to it being targeted or while blocking with it.
Maybe it's just a browser issue I'm having, but the size of each card pic makes them completely unreadable. And the links don't work. I don't understand the point of an article like this unless the reader can clearly see/read the card to follow along with your analysis.
Not trying to be harsh, just calling it how I see it.
Some advice about Mind Slaver. My experience with it in multiplayer is that people will let you use it once without quitting but if it looks even a little recursive you can kiss that game goodbye. Be wary of that interaction with Eternal Witness. Chameleon Colossus is of course great but it does die to all kinds of weird hate (Endemic plague and Extinction for instance, so be aware that its pro black hide isn't invulnerable.)
Hello and thanks for your kind feedback :]
I made this deck some while ago and I've already changed several things. As Leviathan noted in the conclusion, I added Eternal Witness and it's been a great choice. Additionally, I added Panglacial Wurm, because casting it from library is never a problem. I'm also testing Chameleon Colossus, Mindslaver and cantriping Relic of Progenitus, which are doing very good. I can also say that Avarice Totem is bad and Frontier Guide intended to make a little combo with Staff is actually very weak, too. You can also use Lifespark Spellbomb for infinite combo with Staff, but I eventually resigned from it. It has a cheap cantrip, but such win is too easy.
Thanks again for writing the article, Leviathan. Keep up the good work and be sure that I will read all your future articles as well.
Every deck I get inspired by turns out different from the original deck (which is good). So I have made some different card choices. One of them is that I have found that Horn of Greed is quite good. I find it benefits me more than my opponents because I use Exploration and Explore as well as Azusa and Oracle of Mul Day. I also use Vernal Bloom as backup in case my General is "tucked" or otherwise indisposed. I have mixed feelings using Crucible of Worlds because it always gets destroyed before I get any true value out of it. I loved your article and I can't wait for the next installment.
when ever this gets posted, I came to the conclusion that Grixis Control is a pretty strong deck main weakness I felt while playing this deck was NLB Vengevine is just a pain to deal with and the Mythic deck is a pain as well. But with the rest of the field it can hold it's own and be some what competitive. But i still consider it a tier 1.5 deck.
Yeah I didnt care at all when they did the first extended rotation that removed Invasion and odyssey, I didnt care at the m10 rule change, and Mythics i did not care about till they startd hitting 50-100 dollars.
Yes people do react strongly every time wotc does something new now. For very good reasons. Wotc continues to make bad decision after bad decision. If they started making positive changes people would not react so overwhelmingly negative.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! lol, nothing is going to change. I love it how people react everytime WotC does something new. And I do agree, mythic ruined magic a WHOLE lot more than this does. This actually gets newer players into an "old" format. And if you are that concerned about losing money on cards, dont buy them! You dont lose anything monitarity if you never sell them too.
I don't think thousand will quit. Seems like a better time to join EXT because the investment is lower, unless you want jace TMS. I hate that that cards costs so much. mythic ruined magic a lot more than this announcement did.
I went against wall of omens because I was very weak against flyers. My opting out of wall of reverence was purely money based. I realized I'll almost certainly never play this deck again once the tourney is over. So with that in mind, the 8 ticket cost for a play set of a card that's only good in a format I don't play in was a bad investment.
RE: Bannings:
I don't think we should drop the bannings. They help keep the unfun decks out. Do we really need more dredge decks without the ability to sideboard against them? Do we need goblin lacky fueled tier 1 legacy goblin decks? I think the tournament is better for their exclusion. You complained about the deck power being too high, I can't see how having those cards back in would make it a more casual field. Every week I play I try and bring a new deck that brings a new style. Yes the decks I bring are often high priced, but they need the cards to help make the deck viable. The deck I'm bringing in this week is another new one the format I hope.
what they are too stupid to realize is that disgruntled players affect them.magic is picked up by friends. If people stop bringing in their friends to the game, it goes under. Simple as that. This is going to cause thousands of players to quit, and is not going to bring in new players. What it will do is make tourney players spend more on std cards (ie packs). It is another cash grab by wotc, poorly thought out and very poorly executed.
I honestly don't have enough experience with the demon to know which one of you is correct. That said, I want to clarify something about the idea of a "token based strategy" -- when I refer to a token based strategy I mean one that is based around the idea of keeping the tokens in play or using them for a purpose other than mana. This involves things like Broodwarden, Magmaw, Lavafume Invoker, Bloodthrone Vampire etc. The ramp strategy often plays a lot of token generation but with the intention of using those tokens for mana. I think Hellcarver can probably work in both of these decks for different reasons -- like you said flipping up some token makers is fine as it holds the ground. Similarly, flipping a couple of boom booms is nice because your second attack is likely to be lethal (and they hold the ground).
Yeah I think what is going on is that people are hoping WOTC takes the hint. I expect they will stick to their guns as they have proven many times in the past they only listen when it affects them, not just disgruntled players.
Completely disagree on Hellcarver. The card is insane. It works best in a token based strategy as the spawn will help accelerate him and being able to flip Dread Drone or Hatcher or Predator off of a hit will render the ground safe from a swingback.
I've lost exactly one game where Hellcarver Demon dealt combat damage to my opponent. The last flip only hit 2 permanents and neither made spawn, so I died to an Artisan of Kozilek. Every other deck I've drafted with Hellcarver has won or split an 8-4. Let's just say it beat a deck with Drana and Nirkana Revenant quite easily.
Edit: Hellcarver is also insane with Domestication or Traitorous Instinct, as it effectively takes out your opponent's best threat for you.
Overextended is something nobody but magic players has mentioned. wotc has said nothing about it, and considering that the ext was changed so people play more standard {ie buy more packs} i cannot see them bringing it back unless they felt it would make them money.
you know there are 4 more colors besides red
the reason I stopped coming around is basically because of a lack of time, I really wish I could have made the 2hg... I spent lots of time testing through some ideas to bring in and give a tribal deck an edge because of 2hg... but any ways... I did find it get really boring because I started playing mono red gobos, mono red eles, mono red eles... red red red red red red... hell I was even running boros to death in any number of ways, gobos, spirits, giants... just got stale
After some more playtesting I have come up with my final version. I know that mine is a little on the expensive side, however I had the cards to do it so I tried to make this as competitive as possible againts todays meta decks and I am proud to say that I have won a few packs even with this deck!
Heres what I have come up with:
Main
3 Acidic Slime
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Wall of Denial
2 Pelakka Wurm
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
5 Forest
2 Halimar Depths
4 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mind Spring
4 Rite of Replication
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
3 Path to Exile
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Day of Judgement
1 Acidic Slime
And im telling you Wall of Denial is by far the best wall in standard, Jund has no way of removing it and it slows everybody down enough to get which ever combo suits you best out there for the win :) Again thanks to Splendid Belt for this idea, I have had a great time fooling around with this deck and this is by far my most exciting deck to play!
(1) I never played Extended. Guess I wasn`t bribed enough. Probably won`t now either. (2) over-extended, starting at masques due to reprint policy, carries an implied promise to reprint. So they either commit to that or it just inherits the Legacy complaints. (3) @million: Implied future value does not equal instant price. 2 years clearly is enough lead time to keep prices stable with a gradual decline. As evidence I present the entire concept of Standard pricing. So announcing before a season would let players make informed decions while cards still had value. (4) It occurs to me that this decreases the Std->Ext price, which makes Std cards better value, which pushes their price up. Higher Std prices and more current pack sales. Interesting, Wizards...
I think overlapping cards from a ramp strategy with cards from a token-based strategy isn't as bad as you suggest. While there is some anti-synergy involved, you also have access to a broader selection of win conditions, some of which can even fit at the low end of the mana curve like Bloodthrone Vampire. Something like Broodwarden or the Bloodthrone can also make the other guy unwilling to swing in on the ground in mid-game, then you can sac spawn to cast a fattie later. Or maybe Pennon Blade lets you get a few profitable attacks in early before you sac 'em. Also, if you hit 7-8 lands you may reach a point where you need few or no spawn alive to be able to cast all your spells anyway, at which point the anti-synergy is pretty minimal.
Worst case, you get in a situation where you must choose to use the spawn one way (bring out Artisan or Crusher) or another way (sac 'em to Magmaw or swarm in damage with Broodwarden but lose some to blockers, go for one big fatal hit with Bloodthrone Vampire, etc). I would say this is "skill testing" more than "bad". You have to read which of the tools in your hand is more likely to earn the win. In an ideal situation, it might turn out that either route would win and you're golden. Failing that, reaching a game-state where you can win if your playskill is high enough to make the best choice, thats your goal in Magic. Not necessarily to strive for a gamestate so good you can't possibly fail to see the way to win. That's better when it happens, but harder to accomplish!
In constructed, a deck with a plan B and maybe even a plan C has advantages over one with only a plan A like Boros Bushwhacker. The same can apply in limited. Granted, if I was trying to put some token-deck cornerstones in a ramp deck (or vice versa) I would lean more towards certain of them (like a Pennon Blade), and more away from others, depending on the level of anti-synergy involved. But I like mixing them up a little, especially if I can get a deck with 7-9 token producing spells.
Even in the pure ramp deck, you haven't simplified token usage to an automatic, no-brainer thing. Any deck that makes tokens has you making decisions about when to use them to chump block, and when to save them to use for mana.
In a hybrid deck, you might have to decide whether with your given hand, the opponent's deck, and the board state they serve you best as chumpers, rampers, or fuel for one of your "token likers" and if so, which one! But having a resource that lets you use it several different ways means you have flexibility and options, which is useful. A situation where you have 5 land, 3 spawn, and two Crushers in hand doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than having 5 land, 3 spawn, and a Broodwarden and Crusher in hand. The former case you have an extra guy you can't cast for a while, the latter case you have two options, each of which might be better in different situations.
I don't think a Mortician Beetle would be at all upset if you sacced all your spawn tokens to ramp out a fattie, either! He's a token deck card, but the anti-synergy isn't too bad with him.
My biggest concern would be, if only 2-3 cards of your ramping does it by making tokens, token-loving cards are often going to do very little. If you get a ton of Ondu Giants, Overgrown Battlements, etc. but little spawn, then I wouldn't want to mix. But I value spawn producers very highly - if you're in a draft pod where other people value them highly enough, mixing the archetypes is not so viable. I'd only do it if I got a pretty good number of spawn producers early. I think if you're starting more from a token-archetype base and adding in a few fattie-ramp style finishers, there might not be as much downside as splashing tokeny guys in the ramp deck.
I sat down tonight and read all the ROE limited articles you wrote in one sitting. Then I played my first ROE draft. I started with a blue white elevator but I was getting nothing. I switched hard to green in second pack and got a nice curve with that stuff. I ended up playing a G/W/u aura deck. The drake aura is very good with the snake one. I came in second in that and felt like I had a huge heads up with advice like stacking totems can be good. I will be looking forward to the next installment.
The Sejiri Steppe is ussualy used as a defense option rather then an agro option. You simply tap the Kight of Reliquary to get a Steppe in responce to it being targeted or while blocking with it.
Thanks again to silencer for all the info and great game replay. It was pretty awesome. Glad you guys enjoyed it.
Maybe it's just a browser issue I'm having, but the size of each card pic makes them completely unreadable. And the links don't work. I don't understand the point of an article like this unless the reader can clearly see/read the card to follow along with your analysis.
Not trying to be harsh, just calling it how I see it.
Some advice about Mind Slaver. My experience with it in multiplayer is that people will let you use it once without quitting but if it looks even a little recursive you can kiss that game goodbye. Be wary of that interaction with Eternal Witness. Chameleon Colossus is of course great but it does die to all kinds of weird hate (Endemic plague and Extinction for instance, so be aware that its pro black hide isn't invulnerable.)
Hello and thanks for your kind feedback :]
I made this deck some while ago and I've already changed several things. As Leviathan noted in the conclusion, I added Eternal Witness and it's been a great choice. Additionally, I added Panglacial Wurm, because casting it from library is never a problem. I'm also testing Chameleon Colossus, Mindslaver and cantriping Relic of Progenitus, which are doing very good. I can also say that Avarice Totem is bad and Frontier Guide intended to make a little combo with Staff is actually very weak, too. You can also use Lifespark Spellbomb for infinite combo with Staff, but I eventually resigned from it. It has a cheap cantrip, but such win is too easy.
Thanks again for writing the article, Leviathan. Keep up the good work and be sure that I will read all your future articles as well.
Ya I know I figured I would mention it for future reference when Uzra's Block Constructed becomes viable. Thanks for the comment
Every deck I get inspired by turns out different from the original deck (which is good). So I have made some different card choices. One of them is that I have found that Horn of Greed is quite good. I find it benefits me more than my opponents because I use Exploration and Explore as well as Azusa and Oracle of Mul Day. I also use Vernal Bloom as backup in case my General is "tucked" or otherwise indisposed. I have mixed feelings using Crucible of Worlds because it always gets destroyed before I get any true value out of it. I loved your article and I can't wait for the next installment.
when ever this gets posted, I came to the conclusion that Grixis Control is a pretty strong deck main weakness I felt while playing this deck was NLB Vengevine is just a pain to deal with and the Mythic deck is a pain as well. But with the rest of the field it can hold it's own and be some what competitive. But i still consider it a tier 1.5 deck.
Yeah I didnt care at all when they did the first extended rotation that removed Invasion and odyssey, I didnt care at the m10 rule change, and Mythics i did not care about till they startd hitting 50-100 dollars.
Yes people do react strongly every time wotc does something new now. For very good reasons. Wotc continues to make bad decision after bad decision. If they started making positive changes people would not react so overwhelmingly negative.
Thank you for the kind words =)
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! lol, nothing is going to change. I love it how people react everytime WotC does something new. And I do agree, mythic ruined magic a WHOLE lot more than this does. This actually gets newer players into an "old" format. And if you are that concerned about losing money on cards, dont buy them! You dont lose anything monitarity if you never sell them too.
I don't think thousand will quit. Seems like a better time to join EXT because the investment is lower, unless you want jace TMS. I hate that that cards costs so much. mythic ruined magic a lot more than this announcement did.
I went against wall of omens because I was very weak against flyers. My opting out of wall of reverence was purely money based. I realized I'll almost certainly never play this deck again once the tourney is over. So with that in mind, the 8 ticket cost for a play set of a card that's only good in a format I don't play in was a bad investment.
RE: Bannings:
I don't think we should drop the bannings. They help keep the unfun decks out. Do we really need more dredge decks without the ability to sideboard against them? Do we need goblin lacky fueled tier 1 legacy goblin decks? I think the tournament is better for their exclusion. You complained about the deck power being too high, I can't see how having those cards back in would make it a more casual field. Every week I play I try and bring a new deck that brings a new style. Yes the decks I bring are often high priced, but they need the cards to help make the deck viable. The deck I'm bringing in this week is another new one the format I hope.
what they are too stupid to realize is that disgruntled players affect them.magic is picked up by friends. If people stop bringing in their friends to the game, it goes under. Simple as that. This is going to cause thousands of players to quit, and is not going to bring in new players. What it will do is make tourney players spend more on std cards (ie packs). It is another cash grab by wotc, poorly thought out and very poorly executed.
I honestly don't have enough experience with the demon to know which one of you is correct. That said, I want to clarify something about the idea of a "token based strategy" -- when I refer to a token based strategy I mean one that is based around the idea of keeping the tokens in play or using them for a purpose other than mana. This involves things like Broodwarden, Magmaw, Lavafume Invoker, Bloodthrone Vampire etc. The ramp strategy often plays a lot of token generation but with the intention of using those tokens for mana. I think Hellcarver can probably work in both of these decks for different reasons -- like you said flipping up some token makers is fine as it holds the ground. Similarly, flipping a couple of boom booms is nice because your second attack is likely to be lethal (and they hold the ground).
Yeah I think what is going on is that people are hoping WOTC takes the hint. I expect they will stick to their guns as they have proven many times in the past they only listen when it affects them, not just disgruntled players.
Completely disagree on Hellcarver. The card is insane. It works best in a token based strategy as the spawn will help accelerate him and being able to flip Dread Drone or Hatcher or Predator off of a hit will render the ground safe from a swingback.
I've lost exactly one game where Hellcarver Demon dealt combat damage to my opponent. The last flip only hit 2 permanents and neither made spawn, so I died to an Artisan of Kozilek. Every other deck I've drafted with Hellcarver has won or split an 8-4. Let's just say it beat a deck with Drana and Nirkana Revenant quite easily.
Edit: Hellcarver is also insane with Domestication or Traitorous Instinct, as it effectively takes out your opponent's best threat for you.
Overextended is something nobody but magic players has mentioned. wotc has said nothing about it, and considering that the ext was changed so people play more standard {ie buy more packs} i cannot see them bringing it back unless they felt it would make them money.