Awesome well written article. It was quite informative. The only thing I could say against it, well personally I hate control decks. But thats nothing you can fix. Look forward to more of these from you.
Good idea, Perimter Captain would work too. I have a soft spot for Wall of Rev though, probably because of the many times it's dug me out of deep holes. Did I play you with this deck recently? Either that or it's not as original as I thought!
Have you considered Perimeter Captain? I didn't realize he affect ALL cards with Defender until I attacked into an army of Wall of Reverences... Oh yeah, the UW version stomped me the other day XD Good read.
Nice updated decklist - you've certainly added some cash, but there's no argument about the improved card quality! Gratz on the wins too! Finally, I'd like to restate that much of the kudos goes to Mieyebo, who came up with the original idea.
True, I should have mentioned Ajani. For me, this isn't his deck, so I wouldn't run him - not enough weenies for him to shine, and his lifegain is minimal. Also, despite his relative cheapness, I still wouldn't buy him at this point, with him potentially about to rotate out.
I don't think your being harsh at all. After reading your comment I do think that the pictures should be bigger. As far as the links go I guess they're not working due to the set being new I guess. Thanks for the comment and I will sure to keep it in mind for my next article.
If I could stick with Teachings I would, but alas... 5cc is the most interesting, as I was able to get my Cryptic Commands before they shot up in price, and I'm hoping Reflecting Pools will stay around the $10 range for as long as it takes me to get them. I'll probably start off with a Jund variant, most likely Quick and Toast, and see where things go.
I find hybridization to actually be optimal. Sure you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Invoker - but then you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Artisan too. Having one half of the equation and not the other is the major problem with ramp decks - one which hybridization helps to defuse.
The reason I like hybridization is that it gives you an early major threat to wittle down their life (or go the distance on its own) and draw out removal like Narco and Guard Duty - which means that when my monster does drop, chances are it goes the distance.
My favorite tokens card hasn't been mentioned yet - Bramblesnap. It doesn't consume the tokens, and the trample means it can't be chumped. It also scales nicely with the game - meaning that your opponent can't just ignore it until its outclassed.
It's cards like Bramble, Vampire, and Invoker that make me want to draft Predators and Hatchers over other ramp, and even some removal like Forked Bolt or Last Kiss.
Ajani Goldmane fits the lifegain theme and can provide some other decent threats as well. He is also nice and cheap. I love luminarch ascension, if it is not answered and you get to four counters it is game over.
Nice decks, I really like the Grim Monthy deck and I have all but the Urza's Legacy cards which is a nice change. The question is though will Memory Jar be restricted in a months time, I would think twice about purchasing more than one if that was the case.
i totally agree thought hemorrhage is killer, it can anwser multiple threats, but with the new dredgevine deck increasing in popularity i think relic of progenitus might be added in.
Great article Whiffy - the new U. Legacy cards are a good deal of fun and very interesting.
For your Stax deck, I think you need to look harder at beating Merfolk into a pulp. You've got 8 Oath cards in the sideboard (which, don't get me wrong - Oath is a nasty matchup for stax historically) but if merfolk go first and land Aether vial, even a steady barrage of 5/3s probably won't get the trick done. I'd look at pithing needles instead of Jester's Caps at the moment. Stax isn't fast enough yet to rely on an active cap to remove Oath or Storm's win conditions (and often both decks will bring in s 4th, anyway).
Also, I know this will sound redic, but I *do* own Lion's Eye Diamonds and I have difficulty getting the room in the desire tendrils for them. The problem is the mana is great once you've already got jar out, but it's terrible both before (in trying to get jar out) and after you've cracked jar. Grim monolith has kinda taken their spot. It's a fundamentally different deck than ANT.
I imagine that the loss of glorious anthem is being ignored due to honour of the pure, rather than eldrazi monument? From what i remember of the deck it topped out at 2-3 cloudgoat rangers, so I wouldn't expect it to stretch for monument.
I expect Jund and Faeries being the dominant decks, though i guess some kind of mono-red could conceivably have a good matchup against both?
Anyway, I'm going to be slinging reveillarks because they're fun...
Excellent article, I agree with pretty much everything you've said - you give a good overview of the situation. Ext will be hurt, but it'll live through the day.
What's your choice for deck going to be? Will you continue with your (awesome!)Teachings Deck as long as it lives or will you throw yourself at something completely different?
This article was almost finished by the time I saw Klemzo's piece last week - also based on Felidar Sovereign. We've come up with different decklists though, so hopefully anyone interested in the card will find something useful in both articles.
Yeah, in a Cruel Control deck I'd rather be running basic's than Gargoyle Castles. When your win-con requires seven colored mana it's just not worth the risk. Bolas Control's another story. I also think that if you're wanting to keep the budget the same it may even be worth outright replacing 1x Drowned Catacombs and 2x Dragonskull Summit with 2x Creeping Tar Pit and 1x Lavaclaw Reaches. To be honest, though, I hated drawing Lavaclaw Reaches XD
Otherwise good read and I agree that this is an amazing deck for its price range when played properly... Of course I'm a little bias.
EDIT: Also, Thought Hemorrhage in the sideboard is your easy answer to NLB and Vengvine in general.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of your comments partially because I'm not sure how bad you think I'm saying hybridization is. It's certainly not the end of the world and, in fact, I'd say that most of the time it's rather inevitable in small doses. Like, if you have a ramp deck with a couple of spawn producers that you plan on saccing to power out fatties, you aren't going to pass a Broodwarden if it's the only card in the pack and you're still relatively likely to play it.
Also, I don't consider Mortician Beetle to be a token deck card. In fact, with the exception of the R/B token archetype I think that Mortician Beetle is a ramp deck card (as long as that ramp deck is using tokens to ramp. A green based token strategy does not want to sac its tokens very often. Mortician Beetle wants you to sac your tokens. I'm not saying Mortician Beetle is bad in that archetype -- it's not, it's quite good -- but it's a lot better when you WANT to be saccing your tokens for some other reason than pumping the beetle.
In general though, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the benefits of hybridization. Limited is just so different than constructed. In constructed having a backup plan is important because every deck is capable of executing a basic plan very effectively. In most good constructed decks, the backup plan is similar to the basic plan. For example, in super friends your plan A might be to bash them with Gideon while plan B is blow up their land with Ajani and get them with whatver. Plan C might be use Elspeth to token jump them to death. I don't really know that deck very well so I could easily be wrong about what the precise order of the plans is, but while they play out differently in game they are basically the same plan at heart: play a planeswalker, protect it, profit! So the deck doesn't lose focus at all by having multiple plans -- instead it gains resilience against sideboarding and unexpected threats.
In limited, things are so different. For one, not every deck is as focused as a constructed deck. Sideboards also tend to be weaker in limited. Also, while the presence of certain archetypes is predictable, uncommons, rares, and mythics make actual decklists much less so. Most importantly though, in limited your plan B -- at least how you are talking about it -- is not nearly as similar as your plan A. In fact, some of the scenarios you describe suggest a plan B that is diametrically opposed to your plan A. Now sometimes it works out fine -- I agree that often it doesn't really hinder you. But I disagree insofar as I think that 90% of the time -- especially in this format -- you will be better off with a more focused deck.
After some further thought, I think I understand the root of some of our differences. I think you tend to like the spawn archetype more than the ramp archetype per se, and I think that those decks are better suited to hybridization than the ramp decks are. Like, you lose less being 75% token and 25% ramp than you do being 75% ramp and 25% token relative to the pure version of the deck. I still think you lose a little, maybe, but in the case of the token deck it's very little as long as your ramp portion consists of finishers. Think about it like this: if you have a lot of token production, then you can often afford to blow a few on a big fattie and still keep your token enablers useful. If your token production is limited, you're not likely to have much gas left after casting a fattie so your token enablers will really suck. Basically what it boils down to is that it's OK to use the "ramp" part of a token deck in a ramp deck (ie: tokens themselves are fine) but it's bad to put too many token enablers in a ramp deck. Likewise, the fattie part of a ramp deck goes well in a token deck... but the ramp part does not. You'd rather not be casting Ondu Giant when you could be casting Kozilek's Predator if your strategy revolves around tokens.
Nice, congrats on the finish! Keep in mind that the benefits of stacking auras depend a lot on what your opponent has -- if they show you a regress or lots of instant speed removal be careful!
Good Article I've been playing with a Grixis list myself, also on a budget. Our list are pretty close except I don't run seige gang.
No it wasn't you, probably, it was about a month ago. Your deck seems more solid, as his was all walls, and only blue splash for Negate and WoD.
actually based on the naming conventions in M11 I would say there is about a 90% chance he will be reprinted.
Awesome well written article. It was quite informative. The only thing I could say against it, well personally I hate control decks. But thats nothing you can fix. Look forward to more of these from you.
Good idea, Perimter Captain would work too. I have a soft spot for Wall of Rev though, probably because of the many times it's dug me out of deep holes. Did I play you with this deck recently? Either that or it's not as original as I thought!
Have you considered Perimeter Captain? I didn't realize he affect ALL cards with Defender until I attacked into an army of Wall of Reverences... Oh yeah, the UW version stomped me the other day XD Good read.
Nice updated decklist - you've certainly added some cash, but there's no argument about the improved card quality! Gratz on the wins too! Finally, I'd like to restate that much of the kudos goes to Mieyebo, who came up with the original idea.
True, I should have mentioned Ajani. For me, this isn't his deck, so I wouldn't run him - not enough weenies for him to shine, and his lifegain is minimal. Also, despite his relative cheapness, I still wouldn't buy him at this point, with him potentially about to rotate out.
I don't think your being harsh at all. After reading your comment I do think that the pictures should be bigger. As far as the links go I guess they're not working due to the set being new I guess. Thanks for the comment and I will sure to keep it in mind for my next article.
If I could stick with Teachings I would, but alas... 5cc is the most interesting, as I was able to get my Cryptic Commands before they shot up in price, and I'm hoping Reflecting Pools will stay around the $10 range for as long as it takes me to get them. I'll probably start off with a Jund variant, most likely Quick and Toast, and see where things go.
Oh, and Elves.
I find hybridization to actually be optimal. Sure you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Invoker - but then you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Artisan too. Having one half of the equation and not the other is the major problem with ramp decks - one which hybridization helps to defuse.
The reason I like hybridization is that it gives you an early major threat to wittle down their life (or go the distance on its own) and draw out removal like Narco and Guard Duty - which means that when my monster does drop, chances are it goes the distance.
My favorite tokens card hasn't been mentioned yet - Bramblesnap. It doesn't consume the tokens, and the trample means it can't be chumped. It also scales nicely with the game - meaning that your opponent can't just ignore it until its outclassed.
It's cards like Bramble, Vampire, and Invoker that make me want to draft Predators and Hatchers over other ramp, and even some removal like Forked Bolt or Last Kiss.
Honor of the Pure is actually not being considered, since it doesn't affect Bitterblossom tokens, which is pretty important. Also, Love the 'Lark!
Ajani Goldmane fits the lifegain theme and can provide some other decent threats as well. He is also nice and cheap. I love luminarch ascension, if it is not answered and you get to four counters it is game over.
Or you could go colourless and run a construct deck.
Nice decks, I really like the Grim Monthy deck and I have all but the Urza's Legacy cards which is a nice change. The question is though will Memory Jar be restricted in a months time, I would think twice about purchasing more than one if that was the case.
i totally agree thought hemorrhage is killer, it can anwser multiple threats, but with the new dredgevine deck increasing in popularity i think relic of progenitus might be added in.
Great article Whiffy - the new U. Legacy cards are a good deal of fun and very interesting.
For your Stax deck, I think you need to look harder at beating Merfolk into a pulp. You've got 8 Oath cards in the sideboard (which, don't get me wrong - Oath is a nasty matchup for stax historically) but if merfolk go first and land Aether vial, even a steady barrage of 5/3s probably won't get the trick done. I'd look at pithing needles instead of Jester's Caps at the moment. Stax isn't fast enough yet to rely on an active cap to remove Oath or Storm's win conditions (and often both decks will bring in s 4th, anyway).
Also, I know this will sound redic, but I *do* own Lion's Eye Diamonds and I have difficulty getting the room in the desire tendrils for them. The problem is the mana is great once you've already got jar out, but it's terrible both before (in trying to get jar out) and after you've cracked jar. Grim monolith has kinda taken their spot. It's a fundamentally different deck than ANT.
I imagine that the loss of glorious anthem is being ignored due to honour of the pure, rather than eldrazi monument? From what i remember of the deck it topped out at 2-3 cloudgoat rangers, so I wouldn't expect it to stretch for monument.
I expect Jund and Faeries being the dominant decks, though i guess some kind of mono-red could conceivably have a good matchup against both?
Anyway, I'm going to be slinging reveillarks because they're fun...
Excellent article, I agree with pretty much everything you've said - you give a good overview of the situation. Ext will be hurt, but it'll live through the day.
What's your choice for deck going to be? Will you continue with your (awesome!)Teachings Deck as long as it lives or will you throw yourself at something completely different?
This could be useful for you:
http://jamuraa.com/pure/deck_new.php
Easy way to create pretty decklists for the site. I'd also advocate splitting the text up a bit with more graphics, purely for aesthetic reasons.
This article was almost finished by the time I saw Klemzo's piece last week - also based on Felidar Sovereign. We've come up with different decklists though, so hopefully anyone interested in the card will find something useful in both articles.
Yeah, in a Cruel Control deck I'd rather be running basic's than Gargoyle Castles. When your win-con requires seven colored mana it's just not worth the risk. Bolas Control's another story. I also think that if you're wanting to keep the budget the same it may even be worth outright replacing 1x Drowned Catacombs and 2x Dragonskull Summit with 2x Creeping Tar Pit and 1x Lavaclaw Reaches. To be honest, though, I hated drawing Lavaclaw Reaches XD
Otherwise good read and I agree that this is an amazing deck for its price range when played properly... Of course I'm a little bias.
EDIT: Also, Thought Hemorrhage in the sideboard is your easy answer to NLB and Vengvine in general.
I'm not sure why the Cruel pic is not loading in the article, I apologize for that.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of your comments partially because I'm not sure how bad you think I'm saying hybridization is. It's certainly not the end of the world and, in fact, I'd say that most of the time it's rather inevitable in small doses. Like, if you have a ramp deck with a couple of spawn producers that you plan on saccing to power out fatties, you aren't going to pass a Broodwarden if it's the only card in the pack and you're still relatively likely to play it.
Also, I don't consider Mortician Beetle to be a token deck card. In fact, with the exception of the R/B token archetype I think that Mortician Beetle is a ramp deck card (as long as that ramp deck is using tokens to ramp. A green based token strategy does not want to sac its tokens very often. Mortician Beetle wants you to sac your tokens. I'm not saying Mortician Beetle is bad in that archetype -- it's not, it's quite good -- but it's a lot better when you WANT to be saccing your tokens for some other reason than pumping the beetle.
In general though, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the benefits of hybridization. Limited is just so different than constructed. In constructed having a backup plan is important because every deck is capable of executing a basic plan very effectively. In most good constructed decks, the backup plan is similar to the basic plan. For example, in super friends your plan A might be to bash them with Gideon while plan B is blow up their land with Ajani and get them with whatver. Plan C might be use Elspeth to token jump them to death. I don't really know that deck very well so I could easily be wrong about what the precise order of the plans is, but while they play out differently in game they are basically the same plan at heart: play a planeswalker, protect it, profit! So the deck doesn't lose focus at all by having multiple plans -- instead it gains resilience against sideboarding and unexpected threats.
In limited, things are so different. For one, not every deck is as focused as a constructed deck. Sideboards also tend to be weaker in limited. Also, while the presence of certain archetypes is predictable, uncommons, rares, and mythics make actual decklists much less so. Most importantly though, in limited your plan B -- at least how you are talking about it -- is not nearly as similar as your plan A. In fact, some of the scenarios you describe suggest a plan B that is diametrically opposed to your plan A. Now sometimes it works out fine -- I agree that often it doesn't really hinder you. But I disagree insofar as I think that 90% of the time -- especially in this format -- you will be better off with a more focused deck.
After some further thought, I think I understand the root of some of our differences. I think you tend to like the spawn archetype more than the ramp archetype per se, and I think that those decks are better suited to hybridization than the ramp decks are. Like, you lose less being 75% token and 25% ramp than you do being 75% ramp and 25% token relative to the pure version of the deck. I still think you lose a little, maybe, but in the case of the token deck it's very little as long as your ramp portion consists of finishers. Think about it like this: if you have a lot of token production, then you can often afford to blow a few on a big fattie and still keep your token enablers useful. If your token production is limited, you're not likely to have much gas left after casting a fattie so your token enablers will really suck. Basically what it boils down to is that it's OK to use the "ramp" part of a token deck in a ramp deck (ie: tokens themselves are fine) but it's bad to put too many token enablers in a ramp deck. Likewise, the fattie part of a ramp deck goes well in a token deck... but the ramp part does not. You'd rather not be casting Ondu Giant when you could be casting Kozilek's Predator if your strategy revolves around tokens.
Nice, congrats on the finish! Keep in mind that the benefits of stacking auras depend a lot on what your opponent has -- if they show you a regress or lots of instant speed removal be careful!