I think arguing over whether the deck is zoo or goyfsligh is silly. Either way it doesn't matter, your deck looks very similar to zoo and both decks operate in the same manner so why not just call them both zoo. I think most zoo lists have gone away from running sylvan recently. Congrats on the placement.
Just a couple quick notes on the autocarding:
1) If you want a specific card set, you can add the short code for the set and get the right one. If you wanted for example the Magic 2010 version of Duress you could do ( Duress:M10 ). This works for pics as well ( pic=Duress:M10 ) and the tmb too.
2) If you are writing for the FUTURE (for example, M11 cards when they aren't added yet), please still use the ( Card link ) syntax, because the links will be added automatically when the cards are added.
The only time you should be getting that editor is if you have two articles open in the editor in different windows at the same time. If it's happening to you at other times, email me (jamuraa@puremtgo.com) and I'll take a look.
Oh please, Deep-Slumber Titan is still a Timmy card just as much as the Heavyweights. If I was going the Spike route I probably would have gone for adding green for Ondu Giant, Destructive Force, and Primeval Titan to emulate the current array of standard decks.
I personally believe that if a deck can't do much of anything in the first three turns, it should probably be changed whether or not it's a timmy, johnny, or spike deck.
1. I'm well aware of what Zoo is. I in fact characterized my round 4 opponent's deck as Survival Zoo. I was shipped my decklist by a well respected local Legacy player and he referred to it as GoyfSligh so I did as well. I don't believe this deck should be referred to as Zoo because it lacks the 2-of long term advantage slots ala Sylvan Library or Jitte.
It also lacks Knight of the Reliquary and Lightning Helix, other Legacy Zoo staples. Furthermore the white in the deck is solely to support Lynx, Pridemage, and sideboard Paths in favor of more maindeck burn. Whereas Zoo nearly always maindecks Paths, and uses white much more heavily for access to Teeg and other hate cards in the board.
3. "I'm pretty sure LED is required to run Dredge. If your other two Dredge opponents didn't show you the card then they were idiots playing an underpowered combo deck and should've done what you did."
Firstly, as already pointed out non-LED dredge is viable and even preferred by well-respected Legacy writers. Your certainty brings into question your own level of expertise regarding Legacy.
Secondly, what purpose does bashing my opponents serve?
Thirdly, I pointed out in-game situations with decisions that I failed to make correctly, which can be learned from.
3. I said I lacked the the proper time and experience to pick up a control or combo deck for the GP. I never said I was clueless about the format.
I think Mindlock Orb/Boldwyr Heavyweights is cute, but it is also very very bad. They both cost 4 mana, and are pretty bad without each other. Realistically, you are paying 8 mana and 2 cards over 2 turns to get an 8/8 trampler with no drawback. Spectral Force can accomplish roughly the same thing with 1 card and 5 mana, and I hardly ever see Spectral Force played in either Spirits or Elementals.
I realize you're also trying to get it to work with Craggenwick Cremator but even then it isn't all that good. If you really wanted to use Craggenwick Cremator, I would have replaced the Heavyweights and Mindlock with Deep-Slumber Titan and Pyrokinesis. I also don't think Turn to Mist does enough, I would replace it Earthquake to increase the synergy with Deep-Slumber Titan. Of course at this point it's hard to justify keeping blue in the deck.
If your point was to have a blue/red giant deck. I would have probably gone for adding Dragon Wings and more 6cc giants such as Frost Titan as a way to combat Moat.
Man, that's like Russian roulette Flippers_G - I've written over half my articles twice due to doing that. It's always that "Changed by another user" error I get, and by then it's too late to go back/copy/paste. PLEASE, save yourself many headaches and reverse the order :)
I kind of disagree with the Dredge point. There's a lot of debate between running with LED or using a different discard outlet. It's not just budget, NOT running LED does have it's merits.
I have to say I have been working on a giant tribal deck for a while now and you should try inferno titan with a basilisk collar it reminds me of the infinite combo with triskelion but all in all great article.
I don't follow legacy at all, but I was curious as to the difference between GoyfSligh and Zoo. Both seem to be archetypes recognized separately by many players and both can legitimately start with a Taiga into Kird Ape.
So after scanning a few different sites (deckcheck, mtgsalvation, mtgsource, wizards, etc.) His deck seems to be a bit between GoyfSligh and Zoo. The distinguishing characteristics seems that GoyfSligh is purely a red/green deck whereas Zoo is typically RGW. GoyfSligh seems to run more burn than Zoo whereas Zoo runs a few more creatures and often seems to include Path to Exile.
This deck runs more burn than the 7-8 Zoo deck lists I saw, but not a single version of the the half dozen GoyfSligh decks I read included white. So I agree with the assertion that his deck is Zoo, but it does have some similarities for GoyfSligh.
If I got something wrong on the breakdown between Zoo and GoyfSligh, I would love for you to clarify as my breakdown was done in about 10 minutes of research.
Sorry if it seemed like i was singling out these decks here flip i ment in general for the tribal format not just this week alone. And i pointed out one reason to why it might be.
Thou i will say kudos to you for adding a well planned utility card to help you vs rush strategies,strategies that tend to use a low mana curves, or like to tap out each turn. Now while the card might not single handedly win you each game i'm sure that in this format it's done it's fair share of work in winning games.
I've been thinking about RDW while I was writing this article and even before it while I was play testing and saw what AJ was going to be runnning. I made a change to my deck by adding Propaganda which I beleive would slow down the deck enough to make a stand.
Now this card will work against any weenie deck as well so I've not wasted four slots in my deck.
I'm going to say to leave RDW as it is, it's a valid deck and people should be aware that they may face it and it may cause them to tighten their deck. The more players we have the more archetypes you will encounter.
This is after all an event with prizes so I say bring your best if you want to win, if you bring a casual deck expect to lose to at least one deck like this on its way up the ladder in the event.
Even more burn recently? You guys make it sound like you get several burn decks a week and this isn't the case at all. I occasionally play my elemental deck and AJ just made one i believe i've seen one other one in the past month and he went 2-1? To compare it to dredge is completely overstating the issue. Just as people were overstating Goblins in the pauper format and MBC (primarly crypt rats) before that.
I know that this will sound arrogant but the card quality of the opposing decks in question also have been lacking as well in comparison to the burn decks as RDW decks are just easier to obtain and play.
The RDW deck listed here costs 27.24 and if u change hells thunder to spark elemental its only 17.04
Most of the optimal cards in other colors tend to inflate the prices quickly and put the optimal decks out of alot of Tribal players reach.
Typically you get several cards in the 2-3tic range that tend to make the overall price of he deck add up to several times the price of the RDW.
White: Bane Slayer while still dropping is 16, Day of judgment 2, Path to exile 2,Sword to plowshares 1, Moat 4
Green: Goyf is 25 on his own, the new titan even more, Natural order 16
Blue: Force of will is 79 and ManaDrain is 8
Black: Hymn 3.5, Damnation 6,Crypt rats 4
And this is all not even getting into the mana bases to make non mono color decks optimal when fetches start at 4 tics and med duals starting 13 each.
"Before I go much further, I must mention the error I just caught myself doing right now - which was writing a large portion of my article inside the puremtgo article layout."
That's an interesting point, I write my entire article inside the pure editor and then afterwards copy it out into word to see my spelling mistakes etc. I've found that I've actually got better at writing this way rather than having word auto correct my errors for me.
Personally i think they'd just slow down the deck and dilute the overall intent of fast aggressive creatures, but i mentioned it simply for the sake of saying that the deck is near standard legal and if a standard legal can take down a tourney its not a matter of the format being a problem but what opposing players brought to the table.
I can tell you it has happened to me at other times.
If I double-click save due to a lag, it happens, but the article is usually saved as well.
I have had it happen other times as well, but no discernible pattern.
Trust me that's the spike in you talking :p
I think arguing over whether the deck is zoo or goyfsligh is silly. Either way it doesn't matter, your deck looks very similar to zoo and both decks operate in the same manner so why not just call them both zoo. I think most zoo lists have gone away from running sylvan recently. Congrats on the placement.
100% agree, many dredge decks have gone away from LED's.
You just made my day with that set specification tidbit!
Oh please, Deep-Slumber Titan is still a Timmy card just as much as the Heavyweights. If I was going the Spike route I probably would have gone for adding green for Ondu Giant, Destructive Force, and Primeval Titan to emulate the current array of standard decks.
I personally believe that if a deck can't do much of anything in the first three turns, it should probably be changed whether or not it's a timmy, johnny, or spike deck.
:-)
Aka how to spikify a johnny deck. :D
1. I'm well aware of what Zoo is. I in fact characterized my round 4 opponent's deck as Survival Zoo. I was shipped my decklist by a well respected local Legacy player and he referred to it as GoyfSligh so I did as well. I don't believe this deck should be referred to as Zoo because it lacks the 2-of long term advantage slots ala Sylvan Library or Jitte.
It also lacks Knight of the Reliquary and Lightning Helix, other Legacy Zoo staples. Furthermore the white in the deck is solely to support Lynx, Pridemage, and sideboard Paths in favor of more maindeck burn. Whereas Zoo nearly always maindecks Paths, and uses white much more heavily for access to Teeg and other hate cards in the board.
2. As for the LED dredge discussion, Max McCall covered that very well in an article in March. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dre...
3. "I'm pretty sure LED is required to run Dredge. If your other two Dredge opponents didn't show you the card then they were idiots playing an underpowered combo deck and should've done what you did."
Firstly, as already pointed out non-LED dredge is viable and even preferred by well-respected Legacy writers. Your certainty brings into question your own level of expertise regarding Legacy.
Secondly, what purpose does bashing my opponents serve?
Thirdly, I pointed out in-game situations with decisions that I failed to make correctly, which can be learned from.
3. I said I lacked the the proper time and experience to pick up a control or combo deck for the GP. I never said I was clueless about the format.
Thanks for commenting.
I think Mindlock Orb/Boldwyr Heavyweights is cute, but it is also very very bad. They both cost 4 mana, and are pretty bad without each other. Realistically, you are paying 8 mana and 2 cards over 2 turns to get an 8/8 trampler with no drawback. Spectral Force can accomplish roughly the same thing with 1 card and 5 mana, and I hardly ever see Spectral Force played in either Spirits or Elementals.
I realize you're also trying to get it to work with Craggenwick Cremator but even then it isn't all that good. If you really wanted to use Craggenwick Cremator, I would have replaced the Heavyweights and Mindlock with Deep-Slumber Titan and Pyrokinesis. I also don't think Turn to Mist does enough, I would replace it Earthquake to increase the synergy with Deep-Slumber Titan. Of course at this point it's hard to justify keeping blue in the deck.
If your point was to have a blue/red giant deck. I would have probably gone for adding Dragon Wings and more 6cc giants such as Frost Titan as a way to combat Moat.
Yeah basilisk collar would be really nice on an Inferno Titan.
The only time I've ever seen that error is if you have two sessions open both with pure on the same browser.
Man, that's like Russian roulette Flippers_G - I've written over half my articles twice due to doing that. It's always that "Changed by another user" error I get, and by then it's too late to go back/copy/paste. PLEASE, save yourself many headaches and reverse the order :)
I kind of disagree with the Dredge point. There's a lot of debate between running with LED or using a different discard outlet. It's not just budget, NOT running LED does have it's merits.
Actually she's my editor, which is probably my first mistake...
I have to say I have been working on a giant tribal deck for a while now and you should try inferno titan with a basilisk collar it reminds me of the infinite combo with triskelion but all in all great article.
No worries, perhaps it was that white feline-familiar or yours jumping upon the keyboard :)
Well, I guess a just never learn... Great read!
I don't follow legacy at all, but I was curious as to the difference between GoyfSligh and Zoo. Both seem to be archetypes recognized separately by many players and both can legitimately start with a Taiga into Kird Ape.
So after scanning a few different sites (deckcheck, mtgsalvation, mtgsource, wizards, etc.) His deck seems to be a bit between GoyfSligh and Zoo. The distinguishing characteristics seems that GoyfSligh is purely a red/green deck whereas Zoo is typically RGW. GoyfSligh seems to run more burn than Zoo whereas Zoo runs a few more creatures and often seems to include Path to Exile.
This deck runs more burn than the 7-8 Zoo deck lists I saw, but not a single version of the the half dozen GoyfSligh decks I read included white. So I agree with the assertion that his deck is Zoo, but it does have some similarities for GoyfSligh.
If I got something wrong on the breakdown between Zoo and GoyfSligh, I would love for you to clarify as my breakdown was done in about 10 minutes of research.
Sorry if it seemed like i was singling out these decks here flip i ment in general for the tribal format not just this week alone. And i pointed out one reason to why it might be.
Thou i will say kudos to you for adding a well planned utility card to help you vs rush strategies,strategies that tend to use a low mana curves, or like to tap out each turn. Now while the card might not single handedly win you each game i'm sure that in this format it's done it's fair share of work in winning games.
I've been thinking about RDW while I was writing this article and even before it while I was play testing and saw what AJ was going to be runnning. I made a change to my deck by adding Propaganda which I beleive would slow down the deck enough to make a stand.
Now this card will work against any weenie deck as well so I've not wasted four slots in my deck.
I'm going to say to leave RDW as it is, it's a valid deck and people should be aware that they may face it and it may cause them to tighten their deck. The more players we have the more archetypes you will encounter.
This is after all an event with prizes so I say bring your best if you want to win, if you bring a casual deck expect to lose to at least one deck like this on its way up the ladder in the event.
Even more burn recently? You guys make it sound like you get several burn decks a week and this isn't the case at all. I occasionally play my elemental deck and AJ just made one i believe i've seen one other one in the past month and he went 2-1? To compare it to dredge is completely overstating the issue. Just as people were overstating Goblins in the pauper format and MBC (primarly crypt rats) before that.
I know that this will sound arrogant but the card quality of the opposing decks in question also have been lacking as well in comparison to the burn decks as RDW decks are just easier to obtain and play.
The RDW deck listed here costs 27.24 and if u change hells thunder to spark elemental its only 17.04
Most of the optimal cards in other colors tend to inflate the prices quickly and put the optimal decks out of alot of Tribal players reach.
Typically you get several cards in the 2-3tic range that tend to make the overall price of he deck add up to several times the price of the RDW.
White: Bane Slayer while still dropping is 16, Day of judgment 2, Path to exile 2,Sword to plowshares 1, Moat 4
Green: Goyf is 25 on his own, the new titan even more, Natural order 16
Blue: Force of will is 79 and ManaDrain is 8
Black: Hymn 3.5, Damnation 6,Crypt rats 4
And this is all not even getting into the mana bases to make non mono color decks optimal when fetches start at 4 tics and med duals starting 13 each.
"Before I go much further, I must mention the error I just caught myself doing right now - which was writing a large portion of my article inside the puremtgo article layout."
That's an interesting point, I write my entire article inside the pure editor and then afterwards copy it out into word to see my spelling mistakes etc. I've found that I've actually got better at writing this way rather than having word auto correct my errors for me.
Personally i think they'd just slow down the deck and dilute the overall intent of fast aggressive creatures, but i mentioned it simply for the sake of saying that the deck is near standard legal and if a standard legal can take down a tourney its not a matter of the format being a problem but what opposing players brought to the table.