I think what AJ is talking about is making a RULE that says "No RDW." I think it should be more like "don't bring the same deck twice in a row" but basically some rules change is needed.
There's a complete difference in keeping within the spirit and within the rules.
Keep in mind that this is still a tournament and rules should tend to be less subjective, where as the words spirit/intent/casual mean different things to different people and create grey areas that really are not needed.
Brackwater Elemental: The purpose of this creature is to dump it into the yard and unearth it on Turn 3 if I get Turn 2 Ulamog/Dragon Breath. This allows a Turn 3 kill.
Tolarian Winds/ Dark Ritual Allows you to dump your whole hand into Yard while Ehume is on the stack. With opening hand of Dragon Breath, Dark Ritual, Tolarian Winds, Ulamog's Crusher, 2 Lands (or a land and a fetch), You get Hasted Crusher on Turn 2.
I'm not calling anyone a cheapskate. The price of some cards on the secondary market is ridiculous, and I know I am not alone in outright refusing to pay stupid amounts of money for these cards. As for my 'rabid frothing at the mouth spikiness', I play casual, pauper, multiplayer and limited. The vast majority of cards I own I have opened in limited events and you won't see me tearing up the casual room with Tier 1 decks. I like to play good cards, but I also like to play bad ones. I can see how I come across as a spike but i'm simply trying to understand both sides of the argument. With that in mind...
You can't blame people for bringing their best to the competitive table. If I want to play my level up deck, I take it into a casual game and enjoy it, win or lose. Yes, even if the opponent is playing UW control or Jund. I am not going to take it to a tournament and get upset because people with better skills using better cards are beating me.
As I stated earlier, TNMO and FNM are gateways to 'real' competition. It is a ground for honing your skills and testing new competitive decks. It costs money to enter, and awards prizes and QP's. If you want to spend money entering a tournament with your Bazaar Trader deck, fine, but you have to understand that some people own expensive good cards and are going to use them. And why not? It is their choice, just as it is yours to not use those cards. And if you say 'well it's not my choice, I just can't afford those cards', then your gripe is with the secondary market and rarities, and nothing to do with what TNMO is about.
I agree with you on one point - it IS disappointing that there is no middle ground. But I have no idea what can be done about that, and since this debate has been going on for YEARS, it seems that no-one else has arrived at a solution either. So just suck it up, play casual and forget about prizes. After all, it's the playing and having fun that counts, right?
"You can't seriously expect people who are trying to break into competitive play to hobble themselves by not playing the best cards/decks they can."
You're absolutely right, no one should expect folks to play below their ability/collection for the benefit of us cheapskates/beginners.
That being said, it is disappointing that there seems to be no middle ground between your rather unenlightening definition of casual play and rabid frothing at the mouth spikiness. What I keep hearing in these debates is that tournaments of any kind (even PRE's) are supposed to be Spike only environments. Win at all costs! (And boy are we talking cost nowadays).
Maybe there's nothing to be done. Especially in the hyper concentrated world of MTGO, if a prize is on the line, no matter how small, then kid gloves are off.
What is casual? To me, casual is a game that doesn't have prizes on the line. But let's take a step back from that.
When you play a game of magic, you have one simple goal, and that is to win. What's the point in bringing a deck that struggles to win to an event with prizes on the line? Everyone wants to win. You don't play a game with the intention of losing.
Recently I have been playing Pauper Std quite a lot. Nearly every deck features either Blightning, Kor Skyfisher or Lightning Bolt, and in some cases all 3. They are the overpowered cards in that environment, just like Jace and BBE are in Standard. If all those cards were suddenly banned tomorrow, a new 'boogeyman' would take their place. That is the nature of magic - some cards are simply better than others. This applies to decks as well. There will always be at least one Tier 1 deck, because some decks are always better than others.
So what is casual? Casual is a game that doesn't have prizes on the line. TNMO is not casual, it is (like FNM) intended as a gateway to higher-level play. This idea is highlighted by the fact that the events give out QP's. You can't seriously expect people who are trying to break into competitive play to hobble themselves by not playing the best cards/decks they can.
Its just seems pathetic to me that people cant even bring a reasonable deck to a casual type event. What is wrong with people these days. I remember back in the day just bringing what we have and playing some magic. Every body is so hell bent on winning its sickening.
As far as legacy goes, well OK I guess...I don't personally care one way or the other since I don't own any of the cards affected that weren't banned anyway. #2-3 seem ridiculous to me. 1. You can't enforce that and it seems arbitrary. and 2. It makes for near creatureless (-5 cards) decks once you sideboard which is a whole other level of broken. Bad idea imho.
But then again, I probably won't participate anyway so my vote is rather moot.
i believe the legacy filter auto bans some stuff that we added to the B/R list but truth be told the filter doesn't matter and never has it's the players following the build/sideboarding rules that does.
main reason is to prevent from people being able to completely change tribes between matches and more or less to keep the overall flavor of TW. As i said a tribes tactics may change between games but at least the tribe remains the same under these proposed rules.
Why cut out the possibility of sideboarding creatures? There are plenty of fun sideboardable creatures that you miss out on this way. I think you can maintain the tribal setting by changing the 3rd rule so that you have to keep your maindeck 1/3 tribal creatures post-sideboarding. If you take out a creature from your tribe, you have to replace it with a creature from your tribe.
We all came to the conclusion as well that it as a alt event would be the perfect place to test it out.
My personal proposed rules for and alt event with SB's:
#1 Keep all current building rules the same while useing the Legacy the Filter (This is the obvious change needed to allow SB's and we keep the same B/R list this way)
#2 1/3rd creatures build rule only applies to your main deck!
(Keeping things simple and this will make more sense with the next rule)
#3 No creatures allowed in your sideboard and No sideboarding out any creatures.
(To put this into prospective imagine 2 tribes having a drawn out War, while they may change tactics during this they don't change who's participating in it.)
Hope this helps, Obviously this is just my personal opinion/view. Everything said is also open for debate. So what does the rest of you think?
Absolutely. Funny you say that though, I lived in downtown Chicago for over 4 years, and there was zero Magic community there. I had to travel to a suburb to play at all, it was ridiculous.
Its a bit similar to living in a big city. (Like NYC. We have a chess shop in the village that hosts regular tourneys where GMS and IMs show with frequency and in numbers, even though the prizes are minimal.)
I think what AJ is talking about is making a RULE that says "No RDW." I think it should be more like "don't bring the same deck twice in a row" but basically some rules change is needed.
Exactly my point and why I was suggesting the rules the way I did. :)
Unless we define the spirit through the rules, as the banned list does.
I really wish Inquisition of Kozilek said "a card" instead of "non-land card"...
There's a complete difference in keeping within the spirit and within the rules.
Keep in mind that this is still a tournament and rules should tend to be less subjective, where as the words spirit/intent/casual mean different things to different people and create grey areas that really are not needed.
This is my current build of Reanimator:
Creatures:
4 Brackwater Elemental
2 Hand of Emrakul
4 Ulamog's Crusher
Spells:
4 Compulsive Research
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dragon Breath
4 Exhume
4 Frantic Search
4 Ponder
4 Tolarian Winds
Lands:
10 Islands
3 Swamp
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
A few words about my card choices:
Brackwater Elemental: The purpose of this creature is to dump it into the yard and unearth it on Turn 3 if I get Turn 2 Ulamog/Dragon Breath. This allows a Turn 3 kill.
Tolarian Winds/ Dark Ritual Allows you to dump your whole hand into Yard while Ehume is on the stack. With opening hand of Dragon Breath, Dark Ritual, Tolarian Winds, Ulamog's Crusher, 2 Lands (or a land and a fetch), You get Hasted Crusher on Turn 2.
I'm not calling anyone a cheapskate. The price of some cards on the secondary market is ridiculous, and I know I am not alone in outright refusing to pay stupid amounts of money for these cards. As for my 'rabid frothing at the mouth spikiness', I play casual, pauper, multiplayer and limited. The vast majority of cards I own I have opened in limited events and you won't see me tearing up the casual room with Tier 1 decks. I like to play good cards, but I also like to play bad ones. I can see how I come across as a spike but i'm simply trying to understand both sides of the argument. With that in mind...
You can't blame people for bringing their best to the competitive table. If I want to play my level up deck, I take it into a casual game and enjoy it, win or lose. Yes, even if the opponent is playing UW control or Jund. I am not going to take it to a tournament and get upset because people with better skills using better cards are beating me.
As I stated earlier, TNMO and FNM are gateways to 'real' competition. It is a ground for honing your skills and testing new competitive decks. It costs money to enter, and awards prizes and QP's. If you want to spend money entering a tournament with your Bazaar Trader deck, fine, but you have to understand that some people own expensive good cards and are going to use them. And why not? It is their choice, just as it is yours to not use those cards. And if you say 'well it's not my choice, I just can't afford those cards', then your gripe is with the secondary market and rarities, and nothing to do with what TNMO is about.
I agree with you on one point - it IS disappointing that there is no middle ground. But I have no idea what can be done about that, and since this debate has been going on for YEARS, it seems that no-one else has arrived at a solution either. So just suck it up, play casual and forget about prizes. After all, it's the playing and having fun that counts, right?
"You can't seriously expect people who are trying to break into competitive play to hobble themselves by not playing the best cards/decks they can."
You're absolutely right, no one should expect folks to play below their ability/collection for the benefit of us cheapskates/beginners.
That being said, it is disappointing that there seems to be no middle ground between your rather unenlightening definition of casual play and rabid frothing at the mouth spikiness. What I keep hearing in these debates is that tournaments of any kind (even PRE's) are supposed to be Spike only environments. Win at all costs! (And boy are we talking cost nowadays).
Maybe there's nothing to be done. Especially in the hyper concentrated world of MTGO, if a prize is on the line, no matter how small, then kid gloves are off.
What is casual? To me, casual is a game that doesn't have prizes on the line. But let's take a step back from that.
When you play a game of magic, you have one simple goal, and that is to win. What's the point in bringing a deck that struggles to win to an event with prizes on the line? Everyone wants to win. You don't play a game with the intention of losing.
Recently I have been playing Pauper Std quite a lot. Nearly every deck features either Blightning, Kor Skyfisher or Lightning Bolt, and in some cases all 3. They are the overpowered cards in that environment, just like Jace and BBE are in Standard. If all those cards were suddenly banned tomorrow, a new 'boogeyman' would take their place. That is the nature of magic - some cards are simply better than others. This applies to decks as well. There will always be at least one Tier 1 deck, because some decks are always better than others.
So what is casual? Casual is a game that doesn't have prizes on the line. TNMO is not casual, it is (like FNM) intended as a gateway to higher-level play. This idea is highlighted by the fact that the events give out QP's. You can't seriously expect people who are trying to break into competitive play to hobble themselves by not playing the best cards/decks they can.
Is it just me or is something wrong with replay number two? It seems to randomly zoom in from time to time and it's really annoying to watch!
Other than that, good article, good videos, keep it up, Hammy.
Lol. Please do not think anyone has to stick to YOUR definition of "casual".
You mean like the PRES? Not like this is news :)
Its just seems pathetic to me that people cant even bring a reasonable deck to a casual type event. What is wrong with people these days. I remember back in the day just bringing what we have and playing some magic. Every body is so hell bent on winning its sickening.
As far as legacy goes, well OK I guess...I don't personally care one way or the other since I don't own any of the cards affected that weren't banned anyway. #2-3 seem ridiculous to me. 1. You can't enforce that and it seems arbitrary. and 2. It makes for near creatureless (-5 cards) decks once you sideboard which is a whole other level of broken. Bad idea imho.
But then again, I probably won't participate anyway so my vote is rather moot.
He, like me, plays permission control. Two is all you need :D
what a surprise mono red eles...
That's a trust issue. Either we trust people to keep their decks in accordance with the spirit of the event or we don't.
i believe the legacy filter auto bans some stuff that we added to the B/R list but truth be told the filter doesn't matter and never has it's the players following the build/sideboarding rules that does.
main reason is to prevent from people being able to completely change tribes between matches and more or less to keep the overall flavor of TW. As i said a tribes tactics may change between games but at least the tribe remains the same under these proposed rules.
Why the legacy filter instead of the classic filter? Are there cards under either filter that are not banned in tribal?
Just curious and haven't had a chance to look at those formats' banned lists.
Ranth,
Why cut out the possibility of sideboarding creatures? There are plenty of fun sideboardable creatures that you miss out on this way. I think you can maintain the tribal setting by changing the 3rd rule so that you have to keep your maindeck 1/3 tribal creatures post-sideboarding. If you take out a creature from your tribe, you have to replace it with a creature from your tribe.
I basically agree with your first 2 rules btw...
We all came to the conclusion as well that it as a alt event would be the perfect place to test it out.
My personal proposed rules for and alt event with SB's:
#1 Keep all current building rules the same while useing the Legacy the Filter (This is the obvious change needed to allow SB's and we keep the same B/R list this way)
#2 1/3rd creatures build rule only applies to your main deck!
(Keeping things simple and this will make more sense with the next rule)
#3 No creatures allowed in your sideboard and No sideboarding out any creatures.
(To put this into prospective imagine 2 tribes having a drawn out War, while they may change tactics during this they don't change who's participating in it.)
Hope this helps, Obviously this is just my personal opinion/view. Everything said is also open for debate. So what does the rest of you think?
Absolutely. Funny you say that though, I lived in downtown Chicago for over 4 years, and there was zero Magic community there. I had to travel to a suburb to play at all, it was ridiculous.
If this becomes the general consensus then an Event with sideboards would qualify as a special event. And its a great testing ground for the idea.
Its a bit similar to living in a big city. (Like NYC. We have a chess shop in the village that hosts regular tourneys where GMS and IMs show with frequency and in numbers, even though the prizes are minimal.)