I hope you're right! I remember when there was speculation re: banning UW Delver in Standard, people were looking toward Ponder, so it seems like they often go after the enabler. What's the enabler here? I wonder if it's the fixing. Take out Nylea's Presence and it gets a lot harder to cast Elspeth and turn on Chained to the Rocks IMO. Don't know, but I hope you're right that it doesn't come to that!
I do hope to get back into Block when the new set comes in. It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) emerges.
@jeff, that's a really tough call. I've oscillated between stormbreath dragon and elspeth. Before GR added elspeth as a splash, it was a big part of the meta but not more than 50-55%. Elspeth was what pushed it over the top so it's an obvious candidate for a ban. The problem is that if the deck evolves towards straight GR, as I'll speculate more on next week when I discuss Xenagos, then elspeth clearly isn't going to be the problem. I honestly think the deck will come down a huge notch post-BNG, but if it doesn't then the problem is probably going to be stormbreath, given how much pro-white shuts down in the format and just the inherently strong nature of the card, it's the only other likely candidate.
I think you guys are right that the restrictions do asymmetrically affect Stax as opposed to Affinity, but this restriction makes Seeds of Innocence and similar mass artifact removal spells better against both decks. Before, Seeds of Innocence was good against Affinity but bad against Stax, which made its maindeck or sideboard inclusion questionable; now it should be good against both (since it's a non-artifact non-creature spell).
@matthew - thanks for the comment. Fall of the hammer is certainly only a sideboard card (it's awful against decks with hero's downfall, basically), but it seems very close to a strict upgrade to hunt the hunter and especially time to feed, both of which are commonly in GRx sideboards right now. It's great in the mirror and against aggro.
That GW heroic list looks great. It's a shame the green ordeal is pretty awful, and I'm also not convinced you want seven protection effects - god's willing should be enough, I'd like to see that replaced with another enchantment pump I think - possibly a bestow creature like eidolon of countless battles, or even Nyxborn Shieldmate if you want to get spicy. it definitely looks like an archetype worth exploring.
In fact, Liliana is already back to 68 tix since Pete wrote this. Moan.
Only online card prices can have a chart where they lose 16 tix then gain back 10 in the space of a few days.
Noble Hierarch got a nice bump from the DRS unbanning. Personally, I think Lily will soldier on, and now that DRS is gone you could look at Junk lists with Hierarch. KotR is greatly improved now that there are lands in the graveyard again, which is a boon for Junk, a deck that can boast beefier creatures than most of these rock-variants.
You hit the nail on the head with "Bolt" (also Abrupt Decay). If the Monstrosity cost was 4 instead of 5, it might see some use, but the Vial versions of the deck don't always hit 5 mana and the "big mana" versions want to cast Baneslayer or Sigarda.
I'm curious if Fleecemane will start showing up in Zoo? "Big Zoo" might like the 3/3 that gets beefy?
During the time Lorwyn was Standard legal, I tested GW Aggro against Fae a lot. Teeg doesn't do much to the deck. Cryptic Command is always great and it's nice if you can turn it off, but it's the only card in the deck that Teeg messes with. All of the other creatures fly, so Teeg can't block. If you want him around to keep CC turned off, you won't dare swinging into untapped mana. He is also quickly held off by Bitterblossom.
I might test Teeg in the board if Nykthos Green or New Eggs keep popping up since he turns off Garruk/G-Wave/Primal Command/T&N/Open the Vaults and Faith's Reward.
Like the new diaries format, looking forward to seeing this earlier each week. This is my solution to the debate on incentivising people from last week's comments section: Do cool and clever stuff in a winning deck, get money.
Good points GainsBanding, and my comment in that video was kind of tongue in cheek in that I didn't think it was really a major mistake from the limited information I had or one that in a timed game I should beat myself up on. I do remember "hoping" with that wasteland play that he had a risky hand with only 1 land. It is fun at times to analyze plays and since classic is so complex "think" about outcome changes, which I tend to do as entertainment more than anything. I am also taking a big leap in thinking that if I played Thalia I win...
Your game 3 against Oath, I don't think it's fair to yourself to say you chose wrong about playing Wasteland vs Thalia. This is a Marshall Sutcliffe thing - he's always saying it's about analyzing your decision at the time, not looking at the results. So let's see:
Opponent has Underground Sea and Chrome Mox. You have Cavern on Human and a True Believer. The only things you can play from your hand are Wasteland or Thalia.
You know he's on Oath and you've seen Jace in a past game. Oath doesn't matter for him since you have True Believer in play. Tinker, Jace, and Pyroclasm (the only removal you've seen at this point) are what you want to keep him off. I'm going to ignore Brainstorms and other card draw stuff he could have because that doesn't affect the board right away.
If you play Wasteland:
- He goes down to just a Chrome Mox.
- If he doesn't play a land next turn, he's stuck at just that Chrome Mox. I think this is unlikely - he's got 5 cards in hand and that would mean he kept a 1-land hand. Not impossible for Oath, but still risky. Pretty much everything in his deck is uncastable except another Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Sol Ring, or Mana Crypt. But neither of these lead to Tinker, Pyroclasm, or Jace on the next turn.
- If he plays a land next turn he's on 2 mana - blue and x. Tinker and Pyroclasm are both possible if he also has any artifact mana. He has a lot fewer red sources in his deck and I think Pyroclasm is not the right play for him here anyway. Jace is possible if he has Mana Crypt.
If you play Thalia:
- He stays at Chrome Mox and Underground Sea
- If he doesn't play a land next turn (again, I think unlikely), Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal cost one leaving him at 2 total mana. Sol Ring costs 2 so that doesn't help him at all. Mana Crypt costs 1 also, and then he's at 3 mana. Even with artifact mana, he still can't cast Tinker, Pyroclasm, or Jace.
- If he does play a land next turn, he's on U, U/B, x for mana. Tinker is possible only off Mana Crypt. Pyroclasm is totally playable, but again probably wrong. Jace is uncastable even with artifact mana.
- Also with Thalia, if he does land a Jace in a future turn, you've got another creature to hit it with. You're also speeding up the clock to your opponent by 2 points of damage.
So if we say he's most likely going to play a land next turn, then Thalia is the right play because it leaves fewer big things castable for him. Really the only thing that was going to give him a killer next turn was Mana Crypt and he had it.
So OK, Wasteland was wrong, but from what you said in the video I think you were just looking at the results of him having Mana Crypt and Jace, not at the decision at the time. Unless you shortcutted all that in your head without talking it out on the video. Classic is complex and I'm sure there's something here I missed. I surely don't analyze every possibility in my games.
Hey Sorry to hear you are cutting down on your article writing. Your perspective is a valuable one for this site. Congrats on the positive life changes though.
On to the decks at hand...I've been wondering why I am not seeing Fleecemane in the D&T +green builds. It is such a beating vs control and sometimes stymes a rdw draw as well (assuming they don't just have bolt in hand.) I realize it may not be as impactful as some of the lesser bodied fellows in the deck if all you face is combo but then again a 3/3 beater that can be a 4/4 is not sneeze-worthy imho.
Fun article, like these always are. I few random thoughts and observations...
-I'm sure I've talked with you on the subject before, but the amount of strong cards and variation humans get is so huge. This shows up again with 20 more humans, and I'd imagine if it was a format with sanctioned tournaments anymore, the percentage of human decks would be ridiculously high.
-Ragemonger is a huge help at getting a playable Aggro Minotaur deck to work, looks like fun.
-Centaur got two very good Centaur, but I think Prophet is the only one I would play. I could see a Potential ramp/lifegain/devotion deck with Prophet, Nylea's Disciple, and Seton, Krosan Protector. Fanatic of Xenagos is very good, but playing that tribe to aggressive is worrying to me due to lack of quality early drops.
-If another good Satyr comes to support it in Journey to Nyx I would be on the lookout for a Dredge/Storm deck featuring Voyaging Satyr/Satyr Hedonist/Satyr Wayfinder. I could see them working together in a deck to abuse Crypt of Agadem/Songs of the damned, but right now the rest of the tribe doesn't support it enough that you need to much filler. If one more Satyr that supports this theme comes in Journey, could have a hell of a deck entering the format.
-As good as Brimaz is going to be in Standard, I think it is sadly to slow for the Tribal Cats deck. In a deck with so many super effecient one drops, those slots might be better just backing it up with burn than including Brimaz. I do think it has a lot of potential in soldiers though, especially in builds similar to those that were popping up in Legacy events last year.
-One thing I disagree with, Oreskos Sun Guide would of been vastly better if it said to gain 2 life in your upkeep, especially in limited. They would probably be the top picked common in the set. A 2 drop that can bring early beats and then gain life by just sitting there (unlike now where it must attack into bigger creatures to gain life) would be very hard to race. This is especially true when UW evasion tempo is one of the best decks in nearly every limited format.
I love Bitterblossom!
But I hate Fae.dek. I'll never play Bitterblossom in a deck with Faeries. But I can't wait to use it for what it's really worth: sacrificial fodder! Those aren't Faeries, those are chickens ready to be eaten by something higher on the food chain! (All right, sometimes the chickens will still overwhelm the opponent. I won't oppose that).
I've also been very lucky this time around, since I bought my Bitterblossoms a couple months ago for a price that sounds ridiculous now. Sometimes this game gives you late Christmas presents.
Yes I know the decklist has Deathrite Shaman in it. It was submitted before the ban was announced, and I thought the piece was neat enough to give it a go!
That deck seems.... excessive. While I get the spirit of the deck (Run every planeswalker evahh!!!) it's obviously not going to work well in practice. I'm guessing if you take out Tibalt, Nissa, Agent of Bolas, Caller of Beasts and Domri Rade it might just win a couple games though.
I hope you're right! I remember when there was speculation re: banning UW Delver in Standard, people were looking toward Ponder, so it seems like they often go after the enabler. What's the enabler here? I wonder if it's the fixing. Take out Nylea's Presence and it gets a lot harder to cast Elspeth and turn on Chained to the Rocks IMO. Don't know, but I hope you're right that it doesn't come to that!
I do hope to get back into Block when the new set comes in. It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) emerges.
@jeff, that's a really tough call. I've oscillated between stormbreath dragon and elspeth. Before GR added elspeth as a splash, it was a big part of the meta but not more than 50-55%. Elspeth was what pushed it over the top so it's an obvious candidate for a ban. The problem is that if the deck evolves towards straight GR, as I'll speculate more on next week when I discuss Xenagos, then elspeth clearly isn't going to be the problem. I honestly think the deck will come down a huge notch post-BNG, but if it doesn't then the problem is probably going to be stormbreath, given how much pro-white shuts down in the format and just the inherently strong nature of the card, it's the only other likely candidate.
I trust/hope we won't get there though!
I think you guys are right that the restrictions do asymmetrically affect Stax as opposed to Affinity, but this restriction makes Seeds of Innocence and similar mass artifact removal spells better against both decks. Before, Seeds of Innocence was good against Affinity but bad against Stax, which made its maindeck or sideboard inclusion questionable; now it should be good against both (since it's a non-artifact non-creature spell).
Take the survey about the Swords and the next Special Event on March 22: http://tinyurl.com/SWORDSURVEY
Thalia is like auto-concede there I think. :)
@matthew - thanks for the comment. Fall of the hammer is certainly only a sideboard card (it's awful against decks with hero's downfall, basically), but it seems very close to a strict upgrade to hunt the hunter and especially time to feed, both of which are commonly in GRx sideboards right now. It's great in the mirror and against aggro.
That GW heroic list looks great. It's a shame the green ordeal is pretty awful, and I'm also not convinced you want seven protection effects - god's willing should be enough, I'd like to see that replaced with another enchantment pump I think - possibly a bestow creature like eidolon of countless battles, or even Nyxborn Shieldmate if you want to get spicy. it definitely looks like an archetype worth exploring.
In fact, Liliana is already back to 68 tix since Pete wrote this. Moan.
Only online card prices can have a chart where they lose 16 tix then gain back 10 in the space of a few days.
Thank you AJ for doing the challenge, I hope I will have time to join tomorrow cause I will be bringing the Sunforger deck
Thanks for clarifying guys. :) Arbor elf works just as well.
Just make sure to pack tormod's crypts or grafdigger's cages in the sideboard for opposing graveyard decks.
Noble Hierarch got a nice bump from the DRS unbanning. Personally, I think Lily will soldier on, and now that DRS is gone you could look at Junk lists with Hierarch. KotR is greatly improved now that there are lands in the graveyard again, which is a boon for Junk, a deck that can boast beefier creatures than most of these rock-variants.
Congratulations for the baby, I hope everything will be as you wished for.
And see you soon here, again...
You hit the nail on the head with "Bolt" (also Abrupt Decay). If the Monstrosity cost was 4 instead of 5, it might see some use, but the Vial versions of the deck don't always hit 5 mana and the "big mana" versions want to cast Baneslayer or Sigarda.
I'm curious if Fleecemane will start showing up in Zoo? "Big Zoo" might like the 3/3 that gets beefy?
During the time Lorwyn was Standard legal, I tested GW Aggro against Fae a lot. Teeg doesn't do much to the deck. Cryptic Command is always great and it's nice if you can turn it off, but it's the only card in the deck that Teeg messes with. All of the other creatures fly, so Teeg can't block. If you want him around to keep CC turned off, you won't dare swinging into untapped mana. He is also quickly held off by Bitterblossom.
I might test Teeg in the board if Nykthos Green or New Eggs keep popping up since he turns off Garruk/G-Wave/Primal Command/T&N/Open the Vaults and Faith's Reward.
Oh yeah, and Sylvan Primordial got banned. Move along.
Like the new diaries format, looking forward to seeing this earlier each week. This is my solution to the debate on incentivising people from last week's comments section: Do cool and clever stuff in a winning deck, get money.
Good points GainsBanding, and my comment in that video was kind of tongue in cheek in that I didn't think it was really a major mistake from the limited information I had or one that in a timed game I should beat myself up on. I do remember "hoping" with that wasteland play that he had a risky hand with only 1 land. It is fun at times to analyze plays and since classic is so complex "think" about outcome changes, which I tend to do as entertainment more than anything. I am also taking a big leap in thinking that if I played Thalia I win...
Your game 3 against Oath, I don't think it's fair to yourself to say you chose wrong about playing Wasteland vs Thalia. This is a Marshall Sutcliffe thing - he's always saying it's about analyzing your decision at the time, not looking at the results. So let's see:
Opponent has Underground Sea and Chrome Mox. You have Cavern on Human and a True Believer. The only things you can play from your hand are Wasteland or Thalia.
You know he's on Oath and you've seen Jace in a past game. Oath doesn't matter for him since you have True Believer in play. Tinker, Jace, and Pyroclasm (the only removal you've seen at this point) are what you want to keep him off. I'm going to ignore Brainstorms and other card draw stuff he could have because that doesn't affect the board right away.
If you play Wasteland:
- He goes down to just a Chrome Mox.
- If he doesn't play a land next turn, he's stuck at just that Chrome Mox. I think this is unlikely - he's got 5 cards in hand and that would mean he kept a 1-land hand. Not impossible for Oath, but still risky. Pretty much everything in his deck is uncastable except another Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Sol Ring, or Mana Crypt. But neither of these lead to Tinker, Pyroclasm, or Jace on the next turn.
- If he plays a land next turn he's on 2 mana - blue and x. Tinker and Pyroclasm are both possible if he also has any artifact mana. He has a lot fewer red sources in his deck and I think Pyroclasm is not the right play for him here anyway. Jace is possible if he has Mana Crypt.
If you play Thalia:
- He stays at Chrome Mox and Underground Sea
- If he doesn't play a land next turn (again, I think unlikely), Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal cost one leaving him at 2 total mana. Sol Ring costs 2 so that doesn't help him at all. Mana Crypt costs 1 also, and then he's at 3 mana. Even with artifact mana, he still can't cast Tinker, Pyroclasm, or Jace.
- If he does play a land next turn, he's on U, U/B, x for mana. Tinker is possible only off Mana Crypt. Pyroclasm is totally playable, but again probably wrong. Jace is uncastable even with artifact mana.
- Also with Thalia, if he does land a Jace in a future turn, you've got another creature to hit it with. You're also speeding up the clock to your opponent by 2 points of damage.
So if we say he's most likely going to play a land next turn, then Thalia is the right play because it leaves fewer big things castable for him. Really the only thing that was going to give him a killer next turn was Mana Crypt and he had it.
So OK, Wasteland was wrong, but from what you said in the video I think you were just looking at the results of him having Mana Crypt and Jace, not at the decision at the time. Unless you shortcutted all that in your head without talking it out on the video. Classic is complex and I'm sure there's something here I missed. I surely don't analyze every possibility in my games.
Hey Sorry to hear you are cutting down on your article writing. Your perspective is a valuable one for this site. Congrats on the positive life changes though.
On to the decks at hand...I've been wondering why I am not seeing Fleecemane in the D&T +green builds. It is such a beating vs control and sometimes stymes a rdw draw as well (assuming they don't just have bolt in hand.) I realize it may not be as impactful as some of the lesser bodied fellows in the deck if all you face is combo but then again a 3/3 beater that can be a 4/4 is not sneeze-worthy imho.
Thanks, man!
Hope to see you back soon, but considering what your road signs say, you'll be fine. (Or not. That's serious stuff. But good).
Shouldn't that hate deck have some copies of Gaddock Teeg somewhere?
Gaddock Teeg shutting down Cryptic Command can be a factor in the future?
Fun article, like these always are. I few random thoughts and observations...
-I'm sure I've talked with you on the subject before, but the amount of strong cards and variation humans get is so huge. This shows up again with 20 more humans, and I'd imagine if it was a format with sanctioned tournaments anymore, the percentage of human decks would be ridiculously high.
-Ragemonger is a huge help at getting a playable Aggro Minotaur deck to work, looks like fun.
-Centaur got two very good Centaur, but I think Prophet is the only one I would play. I could see a Potential ramp/lifegain/devotion deck with Prophet, Nylea's Disciple, and Seton, Krosan Protector. Fanatic of Xenagos is very good, but playing that tribe to aggressive is worrying to me due to lack of quality early drops.
-If another good Satyr comes to support it in Journey to Nyx I would be on the lookout for a Dredge/Storm deck featuring Voyaging Satyr/Satyr Hedonist/Satyr Wayfinder. I could see them working together in a deck to abuse Crypt of Agadem/Songs of the damned, but right now the rest of the tribe doesn't support it enough that you need to much filler. If one more Satyr that supports this theme comes in Journey, could have a hell of a deck entering the format.
-As good as Brimaz is going to be in Standard, I think it is sadly to slow for the Tribal Cats deck. In a deck with so many super effecient one drops, those slots might be better just backing it up with burn than including Brimaz. I do think it has a lot of potential in soldiers though, especially in builds similar to those that were popping up in Legacy events last year.
-One thing I disagree with, Oreskos Sun Guide would of been vastly better if it said to gain 2 life in your upkeep, especially in limited. They would probably be the top picked common in the set. A 2 drop that can bring early beats and then gain life by just sitting there (unlike now where it must attack into bigger creatures to gain life) would be very hard to race. This is especially true when UW evasion tempo is one of the best decks in nearly every limited format.
I love Bitterblossom!
But I hate Fae.dek. I'll never play Bitterblossom in a deck with Faeries. But I can't wait to use it for what it's really worth: sacrificial fodder! Those aren't Faeries, those are chickens ready to be eaten by something higher on the food chain! (All right, sometimes the chickens will still overwhelm the opponent. I won't oppose that).
I've also been very lucky this time around, since I bought my Bitterblossoms a couple months ago for a price that sounds ridiculous now. Sometimes this game gives you late Christmas presents.
As he says in the article, thoughtseize can take its place.
Yes I know the decklist has Deathrite Shaman in it. It was submitted before the ban was announced, and I thought the piece was neat enough to give it a go!
And maybe replacing them with something like Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen and Coalition Relic.
That deck seems.... excessive. While I get the spirit of the deck (Run every planeswalker evahh!!!) it's obviously not going to work well in practice. I'm guessing if you take out Tibalt, Nissa, Agent of Bolas, Caller of Beasts and Domri Rade it might just win a couple games though.