We have succeeded in demonstrating sufficient support for the Tribal Wars format. The new Community Coordinator has indicated that the format will return:
"Wizards_Alison wrote:
Sorry for the delay in response, everyone.
Our team has discussed and deliberated the response we've gotten for the format retirement announcement. Based off of the reaction we've received, MTGO will be bringing back Legacy Tribal Wars in the future. The other formats will remain in retirement. Our reasoning for the retirement of the other formats is primarily for the sake of new players. Removing options that players have shown less interest in removes the frustrating experience of a player building a deck in one of these formats, only to discover that very few people play them and they have few opponents to play against. Additionally, newer players can be overwhelmed by the number of format choices, and this removal helps these players more easily find an experience that is right for them.
I cannot provide an exact date for the return of Legacy Tribal Wars, but I can assure you that we listened to your reaction, and it will be returned in due time."
I like that while we used some similar sources we came at this from different angles, as you will see when my article comes out. Getting the word out is key.
This really came from nowhere & without any logical explanation.
I hope Wizards will reconsider this decision. We can say lots of things about this and we will say. My only wish is that, our voices will be heard to change something.
As a correction to the article, someone's pointed out to me that Polis Crusher can't be targeted by Xenagos due to pro enchantments which is CERTAINLY a factor, and not an interaction I had considered. That alone could push the equation a little back in Polukranos' favour in the 4-drop slot.
I've got my niche, I'll let others write about Standard - and there's plenty of them! I do write intend to write about standard in the pre-rotation period again, maybe I'll make an unexpected results deck for giggles :).
Yeah I don't know why I have this block on you writing about block. I guess because I never see anyone in Juff actually playing Block so I just forget that it exists and then boom I say something off the wall stupid. :) I still think it would go great :p Also maybe you should write about Standard so you could include the card :p
haha, i'm pretty sure that's the second time you've tried to suggest unexpected results in my THS block deck! You'd think after 40 articles ppl would figure out which format I write about by now :P
There are a few varieties of decks with the mono-red core (little red, big red, boros) but the overall plan of attack is pretty similar. They are super-aggressive decks that aim to win as fast as possible. They do this with cheap, hasty creatures, a lot of burn spells, and finishers like Fanatic of Mogis or Stormbreath Dragon.
**************************
Burn and Fanatic are both mentioned above. Not drawing a fog is pretty rare considering I run 16 - if you mean not drawing a fog every turn, I generally don't need to. I mention here that one of the keys to playing the deck is knowing when to Fog and when not to. You are right in that a dedicated burn deck beats this deck. When building I decided that trying to improve that matchup would weaken the rest too much.
I will say it is pretty cool we both got Maze's End decks published at the same time. This just illustrates hows cool of a game Magic is - we both took a deck based on an obscure win condition and went completely different directions with it. I don't think mine is strictly worse against the field as you suggested, nor is it necessarily better. I think it all depends what shows up in the matchups.
This could change in the coming weeks, and I might even move towards your deck more if I see a lot of dedicated burn decks. Anyway, I liked your article, keep up the good work!
Btw, PB, what do you think of Underworld Cerberus in the Mogis deck? I understand the Minotaur theme and all of that stuff, but Cerberus seems quite strong as a finisher in there, and interacts with Mogis pretty well IMO.
The possibilities with Phenax are just awesome. Like you, I'm not sure on their competitiveness, but the possibilities are there for some sweet things. Imagine if you ever get Phenax active while Prophet is out - that's > 20 cards milled per turn cycle! I can dream, can't I?
It's funny how there's no mention of Burn, Skullcrack or Fanatic of mogus or not drawing a fog.
Merciless eviction is rarely something that would take enchantments, seeing as you kill your detention spheres and perimiters.
The lack of heroes reunion give you no life until turn 5 and by then lifebane zombie or thoughtseize usually has taken it or essence scatter countered it.
Not saying this deck does nothing, but it''s not particularly good against the field in this setup.
I'm with you - excited about the Phenax possibilities. I didn't even think of the interaction with Prophet of Kruphix. If not super competitive, it'll at least be fun!
If these lists are any indication I think we'll continue to see a lot of Forests and Mountains out there.
Congrats on your unusual win. Most players go for the split rather than challenge the other undefeated player an an All-in gamble. It seems your metagaming with life gain was the key to winning the final match after all. I am not a fan of Maze's end as too many people bring it to JuFF thinking it is a perfectly "casual" deck. And it is except they usually bring the Turbo Fog variant which is as boring as hell to win through. I like the changes you've made.
To be fair JuFF deck strengths vary quite a bit from raw beginner to pt level and all points between. The Maze's End deck is on par with the other 13 or so top decks (because there is no more tier system) and it seems your tweaks took advantage of a nice hole in the metagame. Also nice job standing up for chickens everyhere. That sort of bullying shouldn't be tolerated. :p
Back in the day when I frequented IRC channels like #mtgwacky and #eleague I was known as Armyhead (because Armageddon Head wouldn't fit as a nick in the mIRC client.) I realize this might not by itself explain what my favorite mass removal spell is but suffice to say: It destroys land, costs W and 3 and is a Sorcery.
I was also partial to Wrath of God, Route, and Obliterate (despite the fact that the latter is a horrible horrible card as Eric Taylor (the pro) repeatedly demonstrated by thoroughly beating on me with it in my hand. (Pikula naming that card and counter back up for any removal destroyed that plan thoroughly).
The problem with qualitative arguments compared to quantitative arguments, IMO, is that they can kind of be used to prove anything. One of the common arguments against banning Jace in Standard was that even though Caw-Blade was dominating, the most skilled players were doing the best. However, the DCI pretty explicitly rejected that argument in their article explaining the decision to ban those two cards.
I have no doubt you and Andy are skilled players and that there is a definite learning curve to the Workshop decks. However, given that there were 21 DE placements and 11 Top 8 finishes from other people, I don't think the numbers support the idea that the metagame dominance of Workshop in the Classic meta came down to two pilots.
Thanks for the response.
EDIT: Forgot to include the 1st Invi where Calavera and ncsu made T8. Updated the numbers to reflect it.
Wolfbriar Elemental seems like it would be the best card to compare to Wood Elemental - although pretty much any card looks amazing when compared to Wood Elemental.
Also, Ice Age had 2 monocolored legends - General Jarkeld and Marton Stromgald.
Glad you see it as somewhat ranty, just wanted to let you know that is how I interpreted the piece which is otherwise well written and concise.
I don't think we have to rehash the same old arguments all over again, but seeing as you are very in tune with the statistics and your methods I bet if you tried to take a counter-argument perspective you would come up with many valid points (I understand that won't happen because of your overall stance, just saying). I will say, the argument and stats you made might be the best with the information you have without adding in more qualitative elements. The most obvious is player skill, magic is a complex game and if you look over the many game videos you will see several mistakes that impact game results. There are many examples I have seen of a newer player using affinity or STAX and not doing well perhaps due to play skill/experience. Maybe I am just touting my own horn here but I have played the affinity deck thousands of times and Monty has stax even more, that has to count for something and if you take out both of our wins in your totals I bet the percent drops significantly.
Green can actually counter any blue counter/bounce/steal and black removal, if you use Autumn's Veil correctly.
Wood Elemental might be the single worst creature design ever. It could cost 0 and still wouldn't be playable. It could have Akroma's abilities and still wouldn't be playable! It's sort of impressive.
I'll be honest, I can't remember what's the difference between banding and band with others (a.k.a. the mechanic with the clumsiest name ever). I'm not sure I ever played with either in my entire career as a Magic player. (Maybe the first time I opened a Revised starter deck and there was Benalish Hero, but I'm pretty sure I just chump blocked with her).
Anyway, even a land that just produces 1 colorless mana qualifies as severe power creep over the band with others land cycle. Seriously, whoever designed that cycle needs professional help (although even modern medicine has its limits.)
The Tabernacle's flavor is that all creatures are forced into paying their respects AND they ask their daddy planeswalker for some money to make an offer.
We have succeeded in demonstrating sufficient support for the Tribal Wars format. The new Community Coordinator has indicated that the format will return:
"Wizards_Alison wrote:
Sorry for the delay in response, everyone.
Our team has discussed and deliberated the response we've gotten for the format retirement announcement. Based off of the reaction we've received, MTGO will be bringing back Legacy Tribal Wars in the future. The other formats will remain in retirement. Our reasoning for the retirement of the other formats is primarily for the sake of new players. Removing options that players have shown less interest in removes the frustrating experience of a player building a deck in one of these formats, only to discover that very few people play them and they have few opponents to play against. Additionally, newer players can be overwhelmed by the number of format choices, and this removal helps these players more easily find an experience that is right for them.
I cannot provide an exact date for the return of Legacy Tribal Wars, but I can assure you that we listened to your reaction, and it will be returned in due time."
I like that while we used some similar sources we came at this from different angles, as you will see when my article comes out. Getting the word out is key.
This really came from nowhere & without any logical explanation.
I hope Wizards will reconsider this decision. We can say lots of things about this and we will say. My only wish is that, our voices will be heard to change something.
Long live the Tribal Wars...
As a correction to the article, someone's pointed out to me that Polis Crusher can't be targeted by Xenagos due to pro enchantments which is CERTAINLY a factor, and not an interaction I had considered. That alone could push the equation a little back in Polukranos' favour in the 4-drop slot.
I've got my niche, I'll let others write about Standard - and there's plenty of them! I do write intend to write about standard in the pre-rotation period again, maybe I'll make an unexpected results deck for giggles :).
Yeah I don't know why I have this block on you writing about block. I guess because I never see anyone in Juff actually playing Block so I just forget that it exists and then boom I say something off the wall stupid. :) I still think it would go great :p Also maybe you should write about Standard so you could include the card :p
haha, i'm pretty sure that's the second time you've tried to suggest unexpected results in my THS block deck! You'd think after 40 articles ppl would figure out which format I write about by now :P
It seems that if you include green for Phenax's deck you could think about Unexpected Results as another way to get him out.
I for one like that there were two different maze's end articles today :D
Quote from the article -
**************************
Against Mono-Red
There are a few varieties of decks with the mono-red core (little red, big red, boros) but the overall plan of attack is pretty similar. They are super-aggressive decks that aim to win as fast as possible. They do this with cheap, hasty creatures, a lot of burn spells, and finishers like Fanatic of Mogis or Stormbreath Dragon.
**************************
Burn and Fanatic are both mentioned above. Not drawing a fog is pretty rare considering I run 16 - if you mean not drawing a fog every turn, I generally don't need to. I mention here that one of the keys to playing the deck is knowing when to Fog and when not to. You are right in that a dedicated burn deck beats this deck. When building I decided that trying to improve that matchup would weaken the rest too much.
I will say it is pretty cool we both got Maze's End decks published at the same time. This just illustrates hows cool of a game Magic is - we both took a deck based on an obscure win condition and went completely different directions with it. I don't think mine is strictly worse against the field as you suggested, nor is it necessarily better. I think it all depends what shows up in the matchups.
This could change in the coming weeks, and I might even move towards your deck more if I see a lot of dedicated burn decks. Anyway, I liked your article, keep up the good work!
Btw, PB, what do you think of Underworld Cerberus in the Mogis deck? I understand the Minotaur theme and all of that stuff, but Cerberus seems quite strong as a finisher in there, and interacts with Mogis pretty well IMO.
Thanks! I love to hear from people on whattheythin an it means a lot to me that you commented!
The possibilities with Phenax are just awesome. Like you, I'm not sure on their competitiveness, but the possibilities are there for some sweet things. Imagine if you ever get Phenax active while Prophet is out - that's > 20 cards milled per turn cycle! I can dream, can't I?
It's funny how there's no mention of Burn, Skullcrack or Fanatic of mogus or not drawing a fog.
Merciless eviction is rarely something that would take enchantments, seeing as you kill your detention spheres and perimiters.
The lack of heroes reunion give you no life until turn 5 and by then lifebane zombie or thoughtseize usually has taken it or essence scatter countered it.
Not saying this deck does nothing, but it''s not particularly good against the field in this setup.
I'm with you - excited about the Phenax possibilities. I didn't even think of the interaction with Prophet of Kruphix. If not super competitive, it'll at least be fun!
If these lists are any indication I think we'll continue to see a lot of Forests and Mountains out there.
Thx Paul,
Wouldn't call this version a Maze's End deck, it's more of a 5color control deck to play with an uncounterable win condition.
The fog decks I don't get, because they lose to ALOT of things. This seems the only reasonable thing to do.
If anyone else out there's getting bullied with chicken sounds, I'll happily defend your honor any day :)
I like it. I learned a lot from this one. I hope i can play that well. - Aldo Disorbo
I am so glad to read this. I need this one for a newbie like me. Good job on this. - Aldo Disorbo
Congrats on your unusual win. Most players go for the split rather than challenge the other undefeated player an an All-in gamble. It seems your metagaming with life gain was the key to winning the final match after all. I am not a fan of Maze's end as too many people bring it to JuFF thinking it is a perfectly "casual" deck. And it is except they usually bring the Turbo Fog variant which is as boring as hell to win through. I like the changes you've made.
To be fair JuFF deck strengths vary quite a bit from raw beginner to pt level and all points between. The Maze's End deck is on par with the other 13 or so top decks (because there is no more tier system) and it seems your tweaks took advantage of a nice hole in the metagame. Also nice job standing up for chickens everyhere. That sort of bullying shouldn't be tolerated. :p
Suddenly I got a new Idea for a deck~ ;) “Thumbs-up on this”
[ buy instagram like ]
Back in the day when I frequented IRC channels like #mtgwacky and #eleague I was known as Armyhead (because Armageddon Head wouldn't fit as a nick in the mIRC client.) I realize this might not by itself explain what my favorite mass removal spell is but suffice to say: It destroys land, costs W and 3 and is a Sorcery.
I was also partial to Wrath of God, Route, and Obliterate (despite the fact that the latter is a horrible horrible card as Eric Taylor (the pro) repeatedly demonstrated by thoroughly beating on me with it in my hand. (Pikula naming that card and counter back up for any removal destroyed that plan thoroughly).
The problem with qualitative arguments compared to quantitative arguments, IMO, is that they can kind of be used to prove anything. One of the common arguments against banning Jace in Standard was that even though Caw-Blade was dominating, the most skilled players were doing the best. However, the DCI pretty explicitly rejected that argument in their article explaining the decision to ban those two cards.
I have no doubt you and Andy are skilled players and that there is a definite learning curve to the Workshop decks. However, given that there were 21 DE placements and 11 Top 8 finishes from other people, I don't think the numbers support the idea that the metagame dominance of Workshop in the Classic meta came down to two pilots.
Thanks for the response.
EDIT: Forgot to include the 1st Invi where Calavera and ncsu made T8. Updated the numbers to reflect it.
Wolfbriar Elemental seems like it would be the best card to compare to Wood Elemental - although pretty much any card looks amazing when compared to Wood Elemental.
Also, Ice Age had 2 monocolored legends - General Jarkeld and Marton Stromgald.
Glad you see it as somewhat ranty, just wanted to let you know that is how I interpreted the piece which is otherwise well written and concise.
I don't think we have to rehash the same old arguments all over again, but seeing as you are very in tune with the statistics and your methods I bet if you tried to take a counter-argument perspective you would come up with many valid points (I understand that won't happen because of your overall stance, just saying). I will say, the argument and stats you made might be the best with the information you have without adding in more qualitative elements. The most obvious is player skill, magic is a complex game and if you look over the many game videos you will see several mistakes that impact game results. There are many examples I have seen of a newer player using affinity or STAX and not doing well perhaps due to play skill/experience. Maybe I am just touting my own horn here but I have played the affinity deck thousands of times and Monty has stax even more, that has to count for something and if you take out both of our wins in your totals I bet the percent drops significantly.
Green can actually counter any blue counter/bounce/steal and black removal, if you use Autumn's Veil correctly.
Wood Elemental might be the single worst creature design ever. It could cost 0 and still wouldn't be playable. It could have Akroma's abilities and still wouldn't be playable! It's sort of impressive.
I'll be honest, I can't remember what's the difference between banding and band with others (a.k.a. the mechanic with the clumsiest name ever). I'm not sure I ever played with either in my entire career as a Magic player. (Maybe the first time I opened a Revised starter deck and there was Benalish Hero, but I'm pretty sure I just chump blocked with her).
Anyway, even a land that just produces 1 colorless mana qualifies as severe power creep over the band with others land cycle. Seriously, whoever designed that cycle needs professional help (although even modern medicine has its limits.)
The Tabernacle's flavor is that all creatures are forced into paying their respects AND they ask their daddy planeswalker for some money to make an offer.