man there's a lot here... stream of consciousness response it is...
The reason why I stopped showing up has nothing to do with the decks played by others... sometimes it is just not a good time and there have been a couple days where I could make it, but since everytime I play I've had issues I drop and cause problems and I dont want to keep appologizing for it and causing issues.. that said I haven't been thrilled with the past couple of weeks I watched... the one time, shortly after the WW release, everyone brought out their ally decks and there were like 3 - 4 people running Allies and that isn't fun... then this week there were like 3 different elf decks... boring.. sure they all worked different and that's great, but the bottom line is what I like about TWC is that there is such an opportunity for variety... it's why I shy away from tournaments (Std mostly) because you see people all running the same 2 decks.. even if that variety meant an elf NO deck, an imp dredge deck, an avatar oath deck, scarecrow stone tribal, i don't care at least its something different. I'm even tired of seeing Vampire deck after Vampire deck in the casual room.
now I don't think what was being said is that the pauper goblins are overpowered in a classic format, but what he is more saying is that there are tribes like zombies/elves/goblins that have sooo much synergy it takes no thought to build the deck... 95% of all merfolk tribal decks start with the 12 lords.. there are some tribes that have lords like eles that aren't as powerful since it's just one lord and I'm fine with those, but I am def one of those who gets tired of elves and goblins
I think there are ways to maybe switch it up... I kind of agree with the idea of a few rounds of swiss and then a top 4 or w/e, but I already have to judge whether I have time for the swiss rounds alone and sometimes I when I could be on at 12:30 I couldn't be at my comp for 4+ hours.. maybe there is some benefit in rewarding people for the most creative deck... when I was reading through I saw flippers beat me to my thought, but I was thinking that maybe themes could work... pauper.. std tribes... color specific, whatever it may have some merit... I also thought maybe limiting people to tribes on a first come first serve basis could work.. limiting each tribe to one showing per PRE could bring a bit of variety and force people to think outside the box (though I'm sure some people will slide in an elf deck labeled as druids for example.. no idea is perfect), but I do realize this doesn't stop things like turn 2 pro...
I know flippers has brought some very cool things, but I was a little disappointed to see this one.. there are some ways you can use powerful combos that aren't the top... for example consider turn2 pro as a top combo along with grindstone/helm/dredge... then look at the deck u ran the other week that use the cephalid breakfast reanimation combo thing (sorry don't know how to quite describe it) and that I would consider a weaker combo then the previously mentioned.. that I'm not terribly upset to play because it takes a bit more to try and get it to work.. I've tried some lesser combos (and plan on writing them into an article) and they are a little more fun to see because of the creative stretches they take
I mean I would think people reading about last week would better get the idea... that vampire deck was so great because it was very powerful, but insanely creative (and i bet it gets better with the next set).. yet it wasn't a shell of a tournament combo.. losing to creative things like that or AJs often oddball combos I'm usually ok with
I will also say in my defense none of my decks have ever costed more than 25 tix when made a good number of decks were less than that and in the 7-15 ticket range. This is cheaper than some pauper decks. So if thats what im building on budgets then everyone should at least be able to hit that level of deck.
Also my tentative sideboard for MGS is
4 Chalice of the Void dropped for 0 or 1 to stop ANT or elves or thoughseize/brainstorm/nimble mongoose, etc.
4 Pithing Needle stops wasteland, scepter, planeswalkers, belcher, deed, factory
4 Krosan Grip lots of stuff to kill in legacy
3 Ravenous Trap against gy strategies obviously
actually flippers had the progenitus deck, not me. My deck would have been easily stopped if anyone i played had removal or sweepers. And im sorry but the elf deck was a 98% standard deck where I actually removed Nissa Revane for Elvish Promenade...and the goblin deck I played was pauper. If you are going to tell me that a standard deck and a pauper deck are ten times better than the majority of classic tribal decks then I will be appalled. Also I mean any deck with a close curve like mine and creatures that build upon themselves will be a quick winning deck. Whether its goblins, elves, zombies, slivers, etc. I mean it's a basic aggro deck. And I bring everything from shaman, warriors, vedalken, treefolk, beasts, goblins, allies, elves, zombies, and possibly others. I really forget everything i have brought so to bring up two of the many decks I have played is a slight to my total portfolio. The same goes with comparisons for Flippers. If you want an idea of the format and its intended power level you can look through previous top 8's. It ranges from standard elves to vampire/bombardment to angels and insects even. Overall it's a slightly level field. As with any event there will occasionally be spikes in power like flippers deck was this week. Stuff like that happens occasionally and it just does.
I do like markus's idea about rewarding the more inventive deck in an event, by taking a vote and not letting you vote for your own deck this could be a way to encourage more creative decks.
Theme decks are another idea but they would need to be established I would say two weeks in advance for ample building time.
@the troll-I love how you have taken it upon yourself to make sure to follow me around this site. Its heartwarming how you want me to notice you so often. Thanks for commenting and honestly I dont mind if you double event sometimes Im only talking about my event and since i have never seen you there, im not concerned about you double eventing in mine. BUt thank you for your opinion.
The image of Tortured Existence and Stinkweed Imp being like peanut butter and jelly made me laugh. It also made a good point with your thoughts on not overdoing the dredge theme.
wtf you just had an article on star city that you wouldn't use this deck anymore. does the right hand not know what the left is doing or are you just putting the better article on star city because they are a bigger name?
I agree that there are some mixed messages about this tournament.
I also don't think you can set the bar at anything other than maximum in terms of power level. Whatever you ban will create an opening for something else to creep to the most hated tier 1 status.
So, what do you do with a situation like this? Here are my suggestions.
1) Accept it and stop complaining about it. There are plenty of talented deckmakers who play in these tournaments to have fun AND win. This will mean that the power level will fluctuate, and there is nothing really wrong with that.
2) Create theme weeks to encourage creativity. Equipment week, Warrior Week, only creatures week, no elves goblins or merfolk week, ban all the tribes that won in the previous week.
3) Award a prize for the most creative deck based on votes from participants. Why not just create an incentive for what you're looking for?
Actually, the sacrifice cards would not work most games because there tended to be elves/druids around to sacrifice in place of Progenitus.
Force Spike may have worked as I thought you were playing with Elvish Spirit Guide.
Please don't take my comments wrong. You had a cool and innovative deck. There were outs, but they were limited. They were especially limited in a tournament where the message to players has been, "Do not bring a Tier 1 Classic deck in a tribal shell to this PRE."
Also, the way the PRE is advertised and Shard's own articles on his intents indicated the desire for a friendly, relaxed, non-cutthroat tournament. Some weeks that is what I have seen, and some weeks it isn't.
It is a lot of effort for me to make the 12:30 time with my kids tumbling class in the morning and then getting them fed and my son down for a nap by 1:00. I do it because I love Classic Tribal and want to support the Tribal Apocalypse PRE. I have a great deal of respect for Shard for what he is doing. So, I don't want anyone to take my comments in a way that would suggest the Tribal Apocalpyse PRE should not move forward, rather, like Paul said, figure out the message and be consistent with it.
"On the other hand if the round starts and you don't show up to play your opponent and then I see you playing in another event? That just shows disrespect to your opponent and to the event itself. Don't do it. "
i'll do whatever i damn well pls.
yeah anony troll - so what if you know that my name is tomas from netherlands, does removing my anonymity make you feel better for being such a tard, phoenix?
One solution I have in mind is to allow sideboards. The games could be played as "Classic" instead of "Classic Tribal Wars" and thus the usual 15 cards sideboards would be allowed. That would make a huge difference in my opinion.
I was the Progenitus player and as I remember it was me who went first that turn to cast the Hydra on turn two. There are a large number of ways to stop the combo Force Spike, Diabolic Edict, Cruel Edict, the other black spell that eludes me that makes you sacrifice a creature, Daze. I expect there are many others but I can’t remember them while at work.
One of the problems with the power levels is do you bring your gun to the knife fight and crush everyone who didn’t bring a deck to that level or do you bring a fun deck and get crushed by people who bring the powerful decks. It's a no win situation really. I've been in both situations and I know which weapon I'd prefer to wield
I think the event needs to be advertised in the pre section on the mother ship to gain more players. But they will bring their best, if you look at the BYOS decks that have been going round on the Sunday you will see what I mean.
I don’t think there is such a thing as a casual tournament it kind of defies the point in the first place, that’s what the casual room is for.
What I think is going on is two fold. One: mixed messages. Shard has said many times that he wants the PRE to be fun and friendly yet brings goblins/elves etc himself in an attempt to blank his opponents. I don't blame him for wanting to bring a winning deck but as the Tourney Holder he sets the tone. And is the Exemplar for how he wants others to behave.
The current tone is: bring the most cut throat deck you can get your hands on and hope its enough to win. The conflicting friendly message is reinforced by the swiss format and the banned cards list. And then undermined by Shard playing Combo Elves or Goblins etc. And he is not alone nor to blame. After all, every week practically someone brings a deck that can't not go 3-0. Bombardment Vampires last week was a really inovative deck by Markus that just couldn't lose. Before that it was Avatars by AJ, a truly hard deck to beat if it got a decent draw.
Flippers is also a sometimes Tourney Holder for this PRE when Shard is elsewhere and he does the same thing sometimes. This is not a knock on either one as I respect them both as players and builders. I also value them as friends. I would like to say I knew what to expect of each of them. I know at least with Flips he brings a different deck each week.
But Evolver3 brings the same deck week after week. His deck is almost a litmus test. If you can beat it your deck may be broken. Combo Elves played the same way predictably should be a cinch to beat with well timed sweepers but I for one have gone 2-6 with that strategy.
My point is that the mixed messages affect our little PRE by fluxuating the power levels of the decks, as new players join and old ones leave. The new players bring either the most broken deck they can make or a less than good tribe then either learn or get discouraged.
The second thing that is going on is: Even if you somehow set the power level (by doing the things I suggest for either a pro tourney or a friendly amateur PRE) there will be people who show up for one expecting the other. Daily Event competitors bringing their vial fish decks and the Timmy Johnnies with their Wurm tribal decks. And each will be disappointed.
In addition as a regular I have found the power levels to be fairly consistent on the side of competitive whenever I have played and not always as innovative as I would hope for. (I think I played vs one really sub par deck one week but otherwise Ive seen all the major archetypes with competent pilots.)
AJ and Melissa are two players who constantly brought competitive innovation (as well as yourself Kal) but most of us brought the closest thing we could get to an A game.
Of course when someone brings a real Classic Tier 1 shell with a technically tribal deck we all get bent. (Why not? Turn 2 wins suck.) But we can't just say: Don't do that. Because like Goblin Lackey pointed out we can't stop people from playing what they want unless there are rules.
The banned cards rules are pointless imho if we just continue setting the bar as high as it can go anyway. Why NOT let the turn 2 win decks in? After all if the bar goes high enough the point isn't having fun but winning. And winning is something to be done at all costs. Even one's own integrity can be for sale for a good win.
So I put it to Shard...decide what you want in a PRE, really think about it and define it then make it happen. Either encourage a professional field and narrow the rules to the official format. Or make the PRE truly amateur and ban the obvious tribes and combos or at least stop bringing the obvious tribes yourself.
I could get into a hyper competitive PRE once in a while but mostly I just want to have fun. Also while I could get into a hyper competitive tourney once in a blue moon...I also don't have the resources for the truly expensive cards so my ability to compete at that level isn't great. Not a complaint really as I do have plenty of cheap cards to make up for that and enjoy them immensely.
The problem is I don't think you can regulate it. You have come on here stating that you want a tournament that provides for a friendly, casual environment and that you did not want to see the Tribal environment turned into an alternative of the powerful decks that litter that Classic tournament landscape.
That means something different to everyone. The fact that the overall competitiveness of the environment fluctuates widely week to week shows that either you have a wide range of different players with different skill levels showing up, or that no one really knows how big of a gun to bring each week. It is probably a combination of both.
In your first round, you dropped a turn 2 Progenitus. I have no idea whether you went first or second, but if you went first, how exactly is your opponent supposed to stop that without a Classic Tier 1 type of deck? Circles of Protection? Mana ramp into a Wrath of God? I don't particularly view the Progenitus combo in any different light than the Grindstone combo (actually, solving the Grindstone conundrum is much easier to me from a deck building exercise).
You wanted a casual tournament setting, but your perception of that environment is obviously different from mine or bingobongo's perception of what that tournament should look like. I just don't know what level of competitiveness I should prepare for and feel like I need to bring a Tier 1 deck every week to compete which reduces my desire to participate (I simply don't have the time resources to develop decks for a Classic environment at that competitive level).
I love classic tribal, but I think there is a perception that the tone of the tournament is set by a small subset of players and that anyone playing a stronger Classic deck is wrecking the party and anyone playing a weaker deck has the wrong perception on the goal of the tournament.
Hexmage is certainly good vs planeswalkers and looks to be gaining value once RotE arrives - but for now the decks that play Jace primarily play White removal which Black Knight is immune to. Perhaps you could cut Bloodghast for Hexmage but as it I just don't feel like Hexmage is better than the other options. Hexmage would need to take the Duress slot in the SB and you don't want to give up Duress for the RDW matchup.
IN response to paul, bingo, and kalandine- Maintaining a certain level of competitiveness week to week is tough. With the large number of strategies and tribes its impossible to know what might show up and what won't. Some people may want to say elves are a problem, well maybe it would have killed my deck but flippers could have easily just run druids and used all the humans and elves that tap for mana. So if someone can think of a way to regulate the power issue let me know but seriously the progenitus deck was not that bad if you were fast enough.
For what it matters and for what it's worth, I too wholeheartedly support you and the Tribal Apocalypse PRE even though I'm not participating as a player anymore. And just like AJ said, there will be bad weeks surely but as long as the number of good ones are far more higher, you don't have to worry. So continue doing what you're doing.
And I love seeing innovative tribal decklists here every week, so keep up the good work.
Apologies for not being able to make it this week: I had a few interesting ideas but I also had way too much other stuff going on at once, some of which overlapped. This week could also be difficult, but even if I can't be there, this event has had my wholehearted moral support since before it existed. One bad week does not invalidate all the good weeks.
This deck is strictly better than monoblack vampires. Blightning is better than sludge terminate is better than urge to feed and the red burn +sign in blood gives the deck alot more reach. The lavaclaw reaches also go surprisingly deep. The only thing mono black has over Black red is Tendrils and thats only better in an easy matchup (red deck wins)
So this is the third week that I participated in Tribal Apocalypse. I don't know what sort of deck to bring.
My first week, I brought a casual deck that I have always enjoyed - Bears. I went 2-1 and my loss came in a game in which I could not get to a source of red mana with 3 Savage Twister and 2 Fireball in hand.
The next week I came with a green/blue faerie deck that uses Berserk, Unstable Mutation, and a few other pumps to turn silly 1/1 faeries into 20/10 tramplers. This is typically a more effective deck than the Bears deck, but went 1-2. The field was definitely more competitive than the previous week, but it was equivalent to turning up the volume from 5 to 6.
This week I brought a Merfolk deck. Because of the nature of the Tribal Apocalpyse, I used a Merfolk deck without Aether Vial and running a less than optional control suite. This week also had the most competitive variety of decks I have yet seen in Tribal Apocalypse. The volume control spun all the way to 9.
I went 0-2 though I should have ended up 1-1 since my opponent didn't show up for the round 1 match for more than 10 minutes. This is the same player who eventually didn't show for Flipper's match in the second round.
I don't care what the nature of the tournament is, but the desired power level of the tournament cannot be a moving target. I want to participate in the spirit of the tournament, but after watching second turn Progenitus and the Joraga Warcaller/Quest for the Gemblades combo, it seems impossible to see a casual side to this tournament.
I cannot make it next weekend. I was planning on bringing an Blue/White ally deck the next time I could make it, but that deck is too casual for today's field.
Last - sorry for not providing my decklist to you over the weekend. It is almost identical to the Merfolk deck I covered in my last merfolk article:
9 Island
2 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wanderwine Hub
1 Karakas
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Riptide Pilferer
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2 Sygg, River Guide
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
4 Dissipate
4 Oblivion Ring
Frankly seeing elves as the dominant deck might be contributing to the turnout problem. I admit I ran elves myself for a couple weeks but even though mine was not your usual grouping (being naya which is 3 colors and thus not an easy deck to pilot) I quickly realized that Elves were to be avoided when trying to have fun.
Elves in tribal = no fun. I realize this raises the question of what is fun but I think it speaks for itself when players choose to not play. Sure it is possible Urza's prerelease took your players away but it doesn't seem likely to me.
All in all if you want to ramp up the TWC format to be more professional I'd suggest the following: increase the prizes, get rid of the swiss format and maybe make it 4 rounds with a top 4/8 if the numbers grow, get rid of the bannings that aren't official, and encourage people to bring tier 1 decks. Who knows? I might show up anyway.
On the other hand if you want people like me to show up regularly and if your goal is to have a friendly fun tourney, keep the banned list you made, discourage tier 1 decks and boring tribes, keep the swiss format (love it), don't bring elves that JVL wrote an article about even if it does seem like an awesome new deck archetype. Id love to see cards like Natural Order banned in this format too. Talk about an easy button. Flippers is a great builder and a good player so no knock there but really turn 2 wins just don't seem fun to me. I am glad I missed it.
In regards to your Metal Gear deck the Aether Vial seems out of place to me. The purpose of vial as I understand it is to help with a sharp creature curve (like all 2 cost merfolk or 3 cost goblins for example) or to help keep synergy with cards like Standstill and counters. In your deck it seems like merely a meta choice vs counters and I think you have better options in legacy. (Is Skullclamp in Legacy for example?)
gotta say I loved the plainswalk chart that's fantastic, but I would totally love to have some of these online even if just to have em
man there's a lot here... stream of consciousness response it is...
The reason why I stopped showing up has nothing to do with the decks played by others... sometimes it is just not a good time and there have been a couple days where I could make it, but since everytime I play I've had issues I drop and cause problems and I dont want to keep appologizing for it and causing issues.. that said I haven't been thrilled with the past couple of weeks I watched... the one time, shortly after the WW release, everyone brought out their ally decks and there were like 3 - 4 people running Allies and that isn't fun... then this week there were like 3 different elf decks... boring.. sure they all worked different and that's great, but the bottom line is what I like about TWC is that there is such an opportunity for variety... it's why I shy away from tournaments (Std mostly) because you see people all running the same 2 decks.. even if that variety meant an elf NO deck, an imp dredge deck, an avatar oath deck, scarecrow stone tribal, i don't care at least its something different. I'm even tired of seeing Vampire deck after Vampire deck in the casual room.
now I don't think what was being said is that the pauper goblins are overpowered in a classic format, but what he is more saying is that there are tribes like zombies/elves/goblins that have sooo much synergy it takes no thought to build the deck... 95% of all merfolk tribal decks start with the 12 lords.. there are some tribes that have lords like eles that aren't as powerful since it's just one lord and I'm fine with those, but I am def one of those who gets tired of elves and goblins
I think there are ways to maybe switch it up... I kind of agree with the idea of a few rounds of swiss and then a top 4 or w/e, but I already have to judge whether I have time for the swiss rounds alone and sometimes I when I could be on at 12:30 I couldn't be at my comp for 4+ hours.. maybe there is some benefit in rewarding people for the most creative deck... when I was reading through I saw flippers beat me to my thought, but I was thinking that maybe themes could work... pauper.. std tribes... color specific, whatever it may have some merit... I also thought maybe limiting people to tribes on a first come first serve basis could work.. limiting each tribe to one showing per PRE could bring a bit of variety and force people to think outside the box (though I'm sure some people will slide in an elf deck labeled as druids for example.. no idea is perfect), but I do realize this doesn't stop things like turn 2 pro...
I know flippers has brought some very cool things, but I was a little disappointed to see this one.. there are some ways you can use powerful combos that aren't the top... for example consider turn2 pro as a top combo along with grindstone/helm/dredge... then look at the deck u ran the other week that use the cephalid breakfast reanimation combo thing (sorry don't know how to quite describe it) and that I would consider a weaker combo then the previously mentioned.. that I'm not terribly upset to play because it takes a bit more to try and get it to work.. I've tried some lesser combos (and plan on writing them into an article) and they are a little more fun to see because of the creative stretches they take
I mean I would think people reading about last week would better get the idea... that vampire deck was so great because it was very powerful, but insanely creative (and i bet it gets better with the next set).. yet it wasn't a shell of a tournament combo.. losing to creative things like that or AJs often oddball combos I'm usually ok with
I will also say in my defense none of my decks have ever costed more than 25 tix when made a good number of decks were less than that and in the 7-15 ticket range. This is cheaper than some pauper decks. So if thats what im building on budgets then everyone should at least be able to hit that level of deck.
Also my tentative sideboard for MGS is
4 Chalice of the Void dropped for 0 or 1 to stop ANT or elves or thoughseize/brainstorm/nimble mongoose, etc.
4 Pithing Needle stops wasteland, scepter, planeswalkers, belcher, deed, factory
4 Krosan Grip lots of stuff to kill in legacy
3 Ravenous Trap against gy strategies obviously
Comments?
actually flippers had the progenitus deck, not me. My deck would have been easily stopped if anyone i played had removal or sweepers. And im sorry but the elf deck was a 98% standard deck where I actually removed Nissa Revane for Elvish Promenade...and the goblin deck I played was pauper. If you are going to tell me that a standard deck and a pauper deck are ten times better than the majority of classic tribal decks then I will be appalled. Also I mean any deck with a close curve like mine and creatures that build upon themselves will be a quick winning deck. Whether its goblins, elves, zombies, slivers, etc. I mean it's a basic aggro deck. And I bring everything from shaman, warriors, vedalken, treefolk, beasts, goblins, allies, elves, zombies, and possibly others. I really forget everything i have brought so to bring up two of the many decks I have played is a slight to my total portfolio. The same goes with comparisons for Flippers. If you want an idea of the format and its intended power level you can look through previous top 8's. It ranges from standard elves to vampire/bombardment to angels and insects even. Overall it's a slightly level field. As with any event there will occasionally be spikes in power like flippers deck was this week. Stuff like that happens occasionally and it just does.
I do like markus's idea about rewarding the more inventive deck in an event, by taking a vote and not letting you vote for your own deck this could be a way to encourage more creative decks.
Theme decks are another idea but they would need to be established I would say two weeks in advance for ample building time.
@the troll-I love how you have taken it upon yourself to make sure to follow me around this site. Its heartwarming how you want me to notice you so often. Thanks for commenting and honestly I dont mind if you double event sometimes Im only talking about my event and since i have never seen you there, im not concerned about you double eventing in mine. BUt thank you for your opinion.
Probably the best series on the site at the moment.
The image of Tortured Existence and Stinkweed Imp being like peanut butter and jelly made me laugh. It also made a good point with your thoughts on not overdoing the dredge theme.
wtf you just had an article on star city that you wouldn't use this deck anymore. does the right hand not know what the left is doing or are you just putting the better article on star city because they are a bigger name?
I agree that there are some mixed messages about this tournament.
I also don't think you can set the bar at anything other than maximum in terms of power level. Whatever you ban will create an opening for something else to creep to the most hated tier 1 status.
So, what do you do with a situation like this? Here are my suggestions.
1) Accept it and stop complaining about it. There are plenty of talented deckmakers who play in these tournaments to have fun AND win. This will mean that the power level will fluctuate, and there is nothing really wrong with that.
2) Create theme weeks to encourage creativity. Equipment week, Warrior Week, only creatures week, no elves goblins or merfolk week, ban all the tribes that won in the previous week.
3) Award a prize for the most creative deck based on votes from participants. Why not just create an incentive for what you're looking for?
Actually, the sacrifice cards would not work most games because there tended to be elves/druids around to sacrifice in place of Progenitus.
Force Spike may have worked as I thought you were playing with Elvish Spirit Guide.
Please don't take my comments wrong. You had a cool and innovative deck. There were outs, but they were limited. They were especially limited in a tournament where the message to players has been, "Do not bring a Tier 1 Classic deck in a tribal shell to this PRE."
Also, the way the PRE is advertised and Shard's own articles on his intents indicated the desire for a friendly, relaxed, non-cutthroat tournament. Some weeks that is what I have seen, and some weeks it isn't.
It is a lot of effort for me to make the 12:30 time with my kids tumbling class in the morning and then getting them fed and my son down for a nap by 1:00. I do it because I love Classic Tribal and want to support the Tribal Apocalypse PRE. I have a great deal of respect for Shard for what he is doing. So, I don't want anyone to take my comments in a way that would suggest the Tribal Apocalpyse PRE should not move forward, rather, like Paul said, figure out the message and be consistent with it.
"On the other hand if the round starts and you don't show up to play your opponent and then I see you playing in another event? That just shows disrespect to your opponent and to the event itself. Don't do it. "
i'll do whatever i damn well pls.
yeah anony troll - so what if you know that my name is tomas from netherlands, does removing my anonymity make you feel better for being such a tard, phoenix?
One solution I have in mind is to allow sideboards. The games could be played as "Classic" instead of "Classic Tribal Wars" and thus the usual 15 cards sideboards would be allowed. That would make a huge difference in my opinion.
LE
Oh what would make the event more fun is to do a random theme each week, that would make people bring more diverse decks.
I was the Progenitus player and as I remember it was me who went first that turn to cast the Hydra on turn two. There are a large number of ways to stop the combo Force Spike, Diabolic Edict, Cruel Edict, the other black spell that eludes me that makes you sacrifice a creature, Daze. I expect there are many others but I can’t remember them while at work.
One of the problems with the power levels is do you bring your gun to the knife fight and crush everyone who didn’t bring a deck to that level or do you bring a fun deck and get crushed by people who bring the powerful decks. It's a no win situation really. I've been in both situations and I know which weapon I'd prefer to wield
I think the event needs to be advertised in the pre section on the mother ship to gain more players. But they will bring their best, if you look at the BYOS decks that have been going round on the Sunday you will see what I mean.
I don’t think there is such a thing as a casual tournament it kind of defies the point in the first place, that’s what the casual room is for.
What I think is going on is two fold. One: mixed messages. Shard has said many times that he wants the PRE to be fun and friendly yet brings goblins/elves etc himself in an attempt to blank his opponents. I don't blame him for wanting to bring a winning deck but as the Tourney Holder he sets the tone. And is the Exemplar for how he wants others to behave.
The current tone is: bring the most cut throat deck you can get your hands on and hope its enough to win. The conflicting friendly message is reinforced by the swiss format and the banned cards list. And then undermined by Shard playing Combo Elves or Goblins etc. And he is not alone nor to blame. After all, every week practically someone brings a deck that can't not go 3-0. Bombardment Vampires last week was a really inovative deck by Markus that just couldn't lose. Before that it was Avatars by AJ, a truly hard deck to beat if it got a decent draw.
Flippers is also a sometimes Tourney Holder for this PRE when Shard is elsewhere and he does the same thing sometimes. This is not a knock on either one as I respect them both as players and builders. I also value them as friends. I would like to say I knew what to expect of each of them. I know at least with Flips he brings a different deck each week.
But Evolver3 brings the same deck week after week. His deck is almost a litmus test. If you can beat it your deck may be broken. Combo Elves played the same way predictably should be a cinch to beat with well timed sweepers but I for one have gone 2-6 with that strategy.
My point is that the mixed messages affect our little PRE by fluxuating the power levels of the decks, as new players join and old ones leave. The new players bring either the most broken deck they can make or a less than good tribe then either learn or get discouraged.
The second thing that is going on is: Even if you somehow set the power level (by doing the things I suggest for either a pro tourney or a friendly amateur PRE) there will be people who show up for one expecting the other. Daily Event competitors bringing their vial fish decks and the Timmy Johnnies with their Wurm tribal decks. And each will be disappointed.
In addition as a regular I have found the power levels to be fairly consistent on the side of competitive whenever I have played and not always as innovative as I would hope for. (I think I played vs one really sub par deck one week but otherwise Ive seen all the major archetypes with competent pilots.)
AJ and Melissa are two players who constantly brought competitive innovation (as well as yourself Kal) but most of us brought the closest thing we could get to an A game.
Of course when someone brings a real Classic Tier 1 shell with a technically tribal deck we all get bent. (Why not? Turn 2 wins suck.) But we can't just say: Don't do that. Because like Goblin Lackey pointed out we can't stop people from playing what they want unless there are rules.
The banned cards rules are pointless imho if we just continue setting the bar as high as it can go anyway. Why NOT let the turn 2 win decks in? After all if the bar goes high enough the point isn't having fun but winning. And winning is something to be done at all costs. Even one's own integrity can be for sale for a good win.
So I put it to Shard...decide what you want in a PRE, really think about it and define it then make it happen. Either encourage a professional field and narrow the rules to the official format. Or make the PRE truly amateur and ban the obvious tribes and combos or at least stop bringing the obvious tribes yourself.
I could get into a hyper competitive PRE once in a while but mostly I just want to have fun. Also while I could get into a hyper competitive tourney once in a blue moon...I also don't have the resources for the truly expensive cards so my ability to compete at that level isn't great. Not a complaint really as I do have plenty of cheap cards to make up for that and enjoy them immensely.
The problem is I don't think you can regulate it. You have come on here stating that you want a tournament that provides for a friendly, casual environment and that you did not want to see the Tribal environment turned into an alternative of the powerful decks that litter that Classic tournament landscape.
That means something different to everyone. The fact that the overall competitiveness of the environment fluctuates widely week to week shows that either you have a wide range of different players with different skill levels showing up, or that no one really knows how big of a gun to bring each week. It is probably a combination of both.
In your first round, you dropped a turn 2 Progenitus. I have no idea whether you went first or second, but if you went first, how exactly is your opponent supposed to stop that without a Classic Tier 1 type of deck? Circles of Protection? Mana ramp into a Wrath of God? I don't particularly view the Progenitus combo in any different light than the Grindstone combo (actually, solving the Grindstone conundrum is much easier to me from a deck building exercise).
You wanted a casual tournament setting, but your perception of that environment is obviously different from mine or bingobongo's perception of what that tournament should look like. I just don't know what level of competitiveness I should prepare for and feel like I need to bring a Tier 1 deck every week to compete which reduces my desire to participate (I simply don't have the time resources to develop decks for a Classic environment at that competitive level).
I love classic tribal, but I think there is a perception that the tone of the tournament is set by a small subset of players and that anyone playing a stronger Classic deck is wrecking the party and anyone playing a weaker deck has the wrong perception on the goal of the tournament.
Hexmage is certainly good vs planeswalkers and looks to be gaining value once RotE arrives - but for now the decks that play Jace primarily play White removal which Black Knight is immune to. Perhaps you could cut Bloodghast for Hexmage but as it I just don't feel like Hexmage is better than the other options. Hexmage would need to take the Duress slot in the SB and you don't want to give up Duress for the RDW matchup.
IN response to paul, bingo, and kalandine- Maintaining a certain level of competitiveness week to week is tough. With the large number of strategies and tribes its impossible to know what might show up and what won't. Some people may want to say elves are a problem, well maybe it would have killed my deck but flippers could have easily just run druids and used all the humans and elves that tap for mana. So if someone can think of a way to regulate the power issue let me know but seriously the progenitus deck was not that bad if you were fast enough.
For what it matters and for what it's worth, I too wholeheartedly support you and the Tribal Apocalypse PRE even though I'm not participating as a player anymore. And just like AJ said, there will be bad weeks surely but as long as the number of good ones are far more higher, you don't have to worry. So continue doing what you're doing.
And I love seeing innovative tribal decklists here every week, so keep up the good work.
LE
Apologies for not being able to make it this week: I had a few interesting ideas but I also had way too much other stuff going on at once, some of which overlapped. This week could also be difficult, but even if I can't be there, this event has had my wholehearted moral support since before it existed. One bad week does not invalidate all the good weeks.
This deck is strictly better than monoblack vampires. Blightning is better than sludge terminate is better than urge to feed and the red burn +sign in blood gives the deck alot more reach. The lavaclaw reaches also go surprisingly deep. The only thing mono black has over Black red is Tendrils and thats only better in an easy matchup (red deck wins)
So this is the third week that I participated in Tribal Apocalypse. I don't know what sort of deck to bring.
My first week, I brought a casual deck that I have always enjoyed - Bears. I went 2-1 and my loss came in a game in which I could not get to a source of red mana with 3 Savage Twister and 2 Fireball in hand.
The next week I came with a green/blue faerie deck that uses Berserk, Unstable Mutation, and a few other pumps to turn silly 1/1 faeries into 20/10 tramplers. This is typically a more effective deck than the Bears deck, but went 1-2. The field was definitely more competitive than the previous week, but it was equivalent to turning up the volume from 5 to 6.
This week I brought a Merfolk deck. Because of the nature of the Tribal Apocalpyse, I used a Merfolk deck without Aether Vial and running a less than optional control suite. This week also had the most competitive variety of decks I have yet seen in Tribal Apocalypse. The volume control spun all the way to 9.
I went 0-2 though I should have ended up 1-1 since my opponent didn't show up for the round 1 match for more than 10 minutes. This is the same player who eventually didn't show for Flipper's match in the second round.
I don't care what the nature of the tournament is, but the desired power level of the tournament cannot be a moving target. I want to participate in the spirit of the tournament, but after watching second turn Progenitus and the Joraga Warcaller/Quest for the Gemblades combo, it seems impossible to see a casual side to this tournament.
I cannot make it next weekend. I was planning on bringing an Blue/White ally deck the next time I could make it, but that deck is too casual for today's field.
Last - sorry for not providing my decklist to you over the weekend. It is almost identical to the Merfolk deck I covered in my last merfolk article:
9 Island
2 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wanderwine Hub
1 Karakas
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Riptide Pilferer
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2 Sygg, River Guide
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
4 Dissipate
4 Oblivion Ring
Ah, I much prefer the parts of this series dealing with the utter rejects. Had me laughing at multiple cards.
I will say sorry Shard
After supporting this event from the start, Saturday was the final nail in the coffin for me.
Like Paul says above there is no consistency in the decks some casual and some tier 1.
Sure i could use the combo decks but i wanted to play tribes, i play classic/legacy most as it is and tribes is a nice change of pace.
I know you have worked really hard on the PRE i just think it a shame that the format has let you down.
That would be great!
Thanks for your hard work. :-)
Frankly seeing elves as the dominant deck might be contributing to the turnout problem. I admit I ran elves myself for a couple weeks but even though mine was not your usual grouping (being naya which is 3 colors and thus not an easy deck to pilot) I quickly realized that Elves were to be avoided when trying to have fun.
Elves in tribal = no fun. I realize this raises the question of what is fun but I think it speaks for itself when players choose to not play. Sure it is possible Urza's prerelease took your players away but it doesn't seem likely to me.
All in all if you want to ramp up the TWC format to be more professional I'd suggest the following: increase the prizes, get rid of the swiss format and maybe make it 4 rounds with a top 4/8 if the numbers grow, get rid of the bannings that aren't official, and encourage people to bring tier 1 decks. Who knows? I might show up anyway.
On the other hand if you want people like me to show up regularly and if your goal is to have a friendly fun tourney, keep the banned list you made, discourage tier 1 decks and boring tribes, keep the swiss format (love it), don't bring elves that JVL wrote an article about even if it does seem like an awesome new deck archetype. Id love to see cards like Natural Order banned in this format too. Talk about an easy button. Flippers is a great builder and a good player so no knock there but really turn 2 wins just don't seem fun to me. I am glad I missed it.
In regards to your Metal Gear deck the Aether Vial seems out of place to me. The purpose of vial as I understand it is to help with a sharp creature curve (like all 2 cost merfolk or 3 cost goblins for example) or to help keep synergy with cards like Standstill and counters. In your deck it seems like merely a meta choice vs counters and I think you have better options in legacy. (Is Skullclamp in Legacy for example?)