So 12 decks under $500. The reason in my opinion that PE's are not firing is due to the length of the event and the cost. I personally have trouble finding time for the DE's, let alone the PE. I disagree about the 2mans. I think this is an excellent tool to allow players to test on a more competitive forum. So why don't 8mans fire then? I think it is just people naturally being impatient. I don't care to wait forever to join a 8man when I know I can fire off 3-4 2mans in the meantime. The DE's are different because you can anticipate start and end times.
I'm not sure where the price of Force is today, but last night someone was selling 4x for 450.
Great article as always, nice visually and informative. Plus your links pass my company firewall, woo hoo!
Well I'll take the credit for getting this guy involved in Magic. Him and I are friends in the real world and one day he stumbled upon my dirty dark secret known as MTGO. I suggested pauper to him as a cheap way to see if he really would enjoy the game (although I knew he would). We have since played many matches, mostly showing him the ins and outs and trying to anticipate your opp while also knowing your deck inside and out.
Glad to see you break out of your shell and submit an article. I know you are working on another one and look forward to reading it. Make sure you focus on the card selections in your deck and make mention as to why you have decided to include them. Also, how do they interact in the given Metagame at the time and why is this card better than maybe another card you considered. People love to read about decklists and card suggestions.
I know I am usually focused on Legacy so I don't beat on you to much anymore, maybe this weekend I can throw different decklists at you to help test your new deck for the next article.
All the matches I posted in this article were from the 2mans and the Dream Halls article was also from the 2mans. I'm not sure I would ever use data from the TP room because it can be easily skewed due to people bringing not tourney decks. Not that the 2mans is ultimately an accurated picture of what one would face in a DE or PE. It is however, a better sample of test data imo.
Were you looking for an article combining all 2mans I play in or deck specific ones?
I might try to add another, when the price comes down (got my pair for 15). The nice thing is, he is rarely a bad topdeck whereas Taurean isn't always the best. I might have to give it a shot, maybe go -2 taurean, +1 Kargan, +1 Trinisphere.
You are completely right about the seething into Slogger. I re-read my article after I submitted it and thought, duh, I can't think of any situation where that would be the correct T1 play. But at least the option is there and to me it shows why seething can be vital in the deck. The best option is the one I described second.
Agreed on the ANT, Reanimator matchup which is why adding another Trini is probably a good idea. My test data here was very short, I'm sure after more testing I would of found that to be a better option. I really hate topdecking trinis late in the game. But that is how this deck is designed to do, lock your opp out in your opener!
That last point made me so happy! I reached that concusion a couple of days ago, but my friends thought I was nuts. "But Staggershock is a 2-for-1!" was the uusal response. All else being equal, I'd pick Flame Slash over Staggershock.
The Snapping Creeper is definitely a playable in ZZW, but with three Nissa's Chosen already in the deck, he felt like a downgrade - almost the same thing, but costing 1 extra mana. The vigilance could occasionally be relevant in a race, but not too often. The Gnarlid Pack has the ability to be a fattie if he shows up late game, which I think makes him a better value even though the curve is cluttered at 2 and 4. You can always have a turn 3 play by dropping another 2 drop without losing too much value - especially if the 2 drop has the same 2/3 stats as your 3 drop would have.
Of course if I'd known another Gnarlid Pack was coming in P3P10, I might have chosen differently. The deck just didn't need two Gnarlid Packs, and it's debatable whether it needs one. I like Apex Hawks for the 3 drop better than the Creeper or Pack, really none of the cards in P3P9 should have seen play with what I already had overshadowing it. The deck has enough late game fat that the Packs' multikicker has little value, and enough early game Nissa's Chosen that the Creeper doesn't have much either. There might be a case for having the Fledgling Griffin in the base build too.
G/W usually needs a couple of flyers in case your 2-drops don't do enough to your opponent's life total. When I know I'm going to be these colors, I put heavy emphasis on grabbing a Kitesail. But I don't think you even saw any. I definitely would have maindecked the hawks.
P3P9: I would have taken the green 3-drop to fit your curve. It's a solid body and you have plenty to play already on turn 2.
Yes, I mentioned right below the decklist, I should have had the Apex Hawks in there instead of the Gnarlid Pack. It's a better card, and it fills the holes at 3 and 5 in my mana curve as well.
I did sideboard in the Apex Hawks for the majority of my game 2s and game 3s to make up for that deckbuilding mistake. It's a great card.
I would be curious to see some kind of report on what you've faced "meta" wise in the 2mans, because just trying some things in tourney practice I've seen LandStill after LandStill after LandStill, but it would seem that's not as much the case... though it's such a pain to play against
I want more! The opening paragraph was perfect! Exactly how I feel about the game. I always try and explain it to my chess friends as being like chess, only every few weeks a new piece is created which you can choose use and also where to put it! I was about to list the decks you forgot, but then I remembered the cute title and the intended audience :) It is surprising how hard a burn deck is to play right, same cards/draw/opponent can be a hopeless loss for one player, and a crushing victory for another - again, making you love the game even more...
So after playing roughly 30 games with a pair of dragonlords, would you add a 3rd or 4th?
also this may just be me. but i have always found seething song/arc slogger/giant fattie to be pretty terrible. for me song would rarely be worthwile, and slogger seems sub par to me. maybe alogger is good, idk. but i hate him and ussally cut it.
I would add the 4th trinisphere as well, because after playing with AnT, and Reanimator a trini on turn 1 may be all that you need as it forces reanimator into a turn 4 combo if everything happens right for them, and it can give you time against ant to swing. I always found combo to be the worst match up, because they can just win out of nowhere if your not going t1 lock piece on the play.
I rather like the Emblem of the Warmind for my warpworld decks its a nice permanent thats on color with warp world that also gives everyone one of your creatures haste. There are others for green but Warmind is both cheap and on color. If your going to include green then the other auto include would be the Skyshroud Elf as he can paint any mana to either White or Red the instant he hits the board making any floated mana good for a repeat warps you want. Though I do like the thought of including Eldrazi into the mix. Just might have to give that a go.
Yeah I've seen a lot of Landstill lately. Probably as a response to the popularity of Death & Taxes, or at least as a response to me playing D&T, because Landstill always beats me.
And I totally agree with not being snobby against which decks you are going to see. A few weeks ago I hated playing against Elves in the TP room because it was boring to play against watching them cast elf after elf, they usually beat me, and I knew I wasn't going to see it in a tournament. Well then they started showing up in tournaments and I figured out how to beat them. That is a better ending to that story than if I had just complained.
Props on the article Jason, I had thought this format long dead after you had moved away since it was a local format to begin with anyway, and EDH became such a popular format. Harem is so much fun, as long as you can get over the name and theme and see it for what it is: a fun casual format with wacky guidelines. I'm not sure I agree with the changing of rule #7 however!
I was playing harem with a buddy of mine (Jason: This is Zac from F4A btw ;) ) at Grand Prix Columbus a few years back and actually got a quick blurb in BDM's blog coverage for the format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/blo... (scroll down to just under the pic of Empty the Warrens).
I'd love to play with you again if you would like to friend me online, same name as here, as well as anybody else who would enjoy playing the format with me (also open to rainbow stairwell invitations!). :)
Edit: in response to Paul, "Rape and Plunder" just gave me an amazing pirates.dek idea. What a great name, thank you!!
Props on the article Jason, I had thought this format long dead after you had moved away since it was a local format to begin with anyway, and EDH became such a popular format. Harem is so much fun, as long as you can get over the name and theme and see it for what it is: a fun casual format with wacky guidelines. I'm not sure I agree with the changing of rule #7 however!
I was playing harem with a buddy of mine (Jason: This is Zac from F4A btw ;) ) at Grand Prix Columbus a few years back and actually got a quick blurb in BDM's blog coverage for the format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/blo... (scroll down to just under the pic of Empty the Warrens).
I'd love to play with you again if you would like to friend me online, same name as here, as well as anybody else who would enjoy playing the format with me (also open to rainbow stairwell invitations!). :)
I really dislike current Standard, but the Big BUG deck (almost) tempts me into playing a bit. A bit more playtesting would be welcome, but it seems you'll get to that in future "episodes".
I think the best way to build this Pool is BWr. Flame Slash and Puncturing Bolt are too good to not end up in the deck. You even got a terramorphic expanse for fixing. Hand of Emrakul is supercrappy bad in a deck 17 Lands AND no way to get Spawn Tokens ( barring the Pawn but he is too conditional ).
Thought Gorger, while not a bomb is still a pretty strong card. Against decks like BR you put him down turn 4 as a 6/6 or bigger and see how they scoop. Against anything else its a lategame card that has usually a good size for the cost of lands. Trample on him is soooooo good with all the Spawns.
All in all slightly missbuild, but overall a weak pool anyway. I think it's really hard even for a good player to reach a good score with it.
Yeah, Paul, I get your point. The name has always been an issue. We've had people who play it who refuse to call it Harem Format. Girl Power seems to be the most popular alternative name.
Leviathan: As a matter of fact, I just replaced Butcher with Nirkana Revenat. I was worried about the mana cost. We'll see if I like it or just decide to pull it for more removal.
I agree with you on Birthing (in most circumstances) and Bombardment, but Spawning Breath is better than you're giving it credit for - there are a lot of X/1s in the set, and it can be a huge tempo win vs. levelers. Might of the Masses is also a bit of a boom/bust card; it's a fine trick, don't get me wrong, but it suffers from all of the issues that tricks generally do and it's easy to overvalue. I do agree in the broad that the green curve is much better, but the red removal is so good (and so important) that IMHO it more than makes up for the difference in dorks. (Though I also agree that it means red is more likely to be a support color than a base color.)
I could be wrong but I think you might have missed the point of the objections. Just as the objectors seem to have missed your points. Ironic eh? I mean they are really complaining about the ATTITUDE behind the word harem. As if we lived in a world where such things actually exist. Oh wait no, they do. It might be akin to calling a deck "Rape and Plunder". Some people have no problems with the word Rape (it is after all a plant too) but in most people's minds it is a negative word used to describe a horrible act of violence USUALLY perpetrated on women but sometimes also on men.
Do you see the point? It isn't that the format is about women, or objectifying women, or fantasizing about great sexy art. It is really an objection about the culture behind such a name. And the thinking that goes into such words. Sure it was a joke name and I got it and didn't go screaming my head off about it. But I knew you'd get this response as soon as I read the title. If you put yourself out there (as you did) be prepared for the backlash.
So 12 decks under $500. The reason in my opinion that PE's are not firing is due to the length of the event and the cost. I personally have trouble finding time for the DE's, let alone the PE. I disagree about the 2mans. I think this is an excellent tool to allow players to test on a more competitive forum. So why don't 8mans fire then? I think it is just people naturally being impatient. I don't care to wait forever to join a 8man when I know I can fire off 3-4 2mans in the meantime. The DE's are different because you can anticipate start and end times.
I'm not sure where the price of Force is today, but last night someone was selling 4x for 450.
Great article as always, nice visually and informative. Plus your links pass my company firewall, woo hoo!
Well I'll take the credit for getting this guy involved in Magic. Him and I are friends in the real world and one day he stumbled upon my dirty dark secret known as MTGO. I suggested pauper to him as a cheap way to see if he really would enjoy the game (although I knew he would). We have since played many matches, mostly showing him the ins and outs and trying to anticipate your opp while also knowing your deck inside and out.
Glad to see you break out of your shell and submit an article. I know you are working on another one and look forward to reading it. Make sure you focus on the card selections in your deck and make mention as to why you have decided to include them. Also, how do they interact in the given Metagame at the time and why is this card better than maybe another card you considered. People love to read about decklists and card suggestions.
I know I am usually focused on Legacy so I don't beat on you to much anymore, maybe this weekend I can throw different decklists at you to help test your new deck for the next article.
All the matches I posted in this article were from the 2mans and the Dream Halls article was also from the 2mans. I'm not sure I would ever use data from the TP room because it can be easily skewed due to people bringing not tourney decks. Not that the 2mans is ultimately an accurated picture of what one would face in a DE or PE. It is however, a better sample of test data imo.
Were you looking for an article combining all 2mans I play in or deck specific ones?
I might try to add another, when the price comes down (got my pair for 15). The nice thing is, he is rarely a bad topdeck whereas Taurean isn't always the best. I might have to give it a shot, maybe go -2 taurean, +1 Kargan, +1 Trinisphere.
You are completely right about the seething into Slogger. I re-read my article after I submitted it and thought, duh, I can't think of any situation where that would be the correct T1 play. But at least the option is there and to me it shows why seething can be vital in the deck. The best option is the one I described second.
Agreed on the ANT, Reanimator matchup which is why adding another Trini is probably a good idea. My test data here was very short, I'm sure after more testing I would of found that to be a better option. I really hate topdecking trinis late in the game. But that is how this deck is designed to do, lock your opp out in your opener!
That last point made me so happy! I reached that concusion a couple of days ago, but my friends thought I was nuts. "But Staggershock is a 2-for-1!" was the uusal response. All else being equal, I'd pick Flame Slash over Staggershock.
The Snapping Creeper is definitely a playable in ZZW, but with three Nissa's Chosen already in the deck, he felt like a downgrade - almost the same thing, but costing 1 extra mana. The vigilance could occasionally be relevant in a race, but not too often. The Gnarlid Pack has the ability to be a fattie if he shows up late game, which I think makes him a better value even though the curve is cluttered at 2 and 4. You can always have a turn 3 play by dropping another 2 drop without losing too much value - especially if the 2 drop has the same 2/3 stats as your 3 drop would have.
Of course if I'd known another Gnarlid Pack was coming in P3P10, I might have chosen differently. The deck just didn't need two Gnarlid Packs, and it's debatable whether it needs one. I like Apex Hawks for the 3 drop better than the Creeper or Pack, really none of the cards in P3P9 should have seen play with what I already had overshadowing it. The deck has enough late game fat that the Packs' multikicker has little value, and enough early game Nissa's Chosen that the Creeper doesn't have much either. There might be a case for having the Fledgling Griffin in the base build too.
G/W usually needs a couple of flyers in case your 2-drops don't do enough to your opponent's life total. When I know I'm going to be these colors, I put heavy emphasis on grabbing a Kitesail. But I don't think you even saw any. I definitely would have maindecked the hawks.
P3P9: I would have taken the green 3-drop to fit your curve. It's a solid body and you have plenty to play already on turn 2.
Yes, I mentioned right below the decklist, I should have had the Apex Hawks in there instead of the Gnarlid Pack. It's a better card, and it fills the holes at 3 and 5 in my mana curve as well.
I did sideboard in the Apex Hawks for the majority of my game 2s and game 3s to make up for that deckbuilding mistake. It's a great card.
I would be curious to see some kind of report on what you've faced "meta" wise in the 2mans, because just trying some things in tourney practice I've seen LandStill after LandStill after LandStill, but it would seem that's not as much the case... though it's such a pain to play against
I want more! The opening paragraph was perfect! Exactly how I feel about the game. I always try and explain it to my chess friends as being like chess, only every few weeks a new piece is created which you can choose use and also where to put it! I was about to list the decks you forgot, but then I remembered the cute title and the intended audience :) It is surprising how hard a burn deck is to play right, same cards/draw/opponent can be a hopeless loss for one player, and a crushing victory for another - again, making you love the game even more...
So after playing roughly 30 games with a pair of dragonlords, would you add a 3rd or 4th?
also this may just be me. but i have always found seething song/arc slogger/giant fattie to be pretty terrible. for me song would rarely be worthwile, and slogger seems sub par to me. maybe alogger is good, idk. but i hate him and ussally cut it.
I would add the 4th trinisphere as well, because after playing with AnT, and Reanimator a trini on turn 1 may be all that you need as it forces reanimator into a turn 4 combo if everything happens right for them, and it can give you time against ant to swing. I always found combo to be the worst match up, because they can just win out of nowhere if your not going t1 lock piece on the play.
Virus Warning - Don't open the "HALLMARK EMAIL" going around, or your CPU will be fried
dont you think is rather awful to leave apex hawks in the sideboard? Its one of the best white commons.
Nice article. I hope to read more from you in the future.
I rather like the Emblem of the Warmind for my warpworld decks its a nice permanent thats on color with warp world that also gives everyone one of your creatures haste. There are others for green but Warmind is both cheap and on color. If your going to include green then the other auto include would be the Skyshroud Elf as he can paint any mana to either White or Red the instant he hits the board making any floated mana good for a repeat warps you want. Though I do like the thought of including Eldrazi into the mix. Just might have to give that a go.
Yeah I've seen a lot of Landstill lately. Probably as a response to the popularity of Death & Taxes, or at least as a response to me playing D&T, because Landstill always beats me.
And I totally agree with not being snobby against which decks you are going to see. A few weeks ago I hated playing against Elves in the TP room because it was boring to play against watching them cast elf after elf, they usually beat me, and I knew I wasn't going to see it in a tournament. Well then they started showing up in tournaments and I figured out how to beat them. That is a better ending to that story than if I had just complained.
Props on the article Jason, I had thought this format long dead after you had moved away since it was a local format to begin with anyway, and EDH became such a popular format. Harem is so much fun, as long as you can get over the name and theme and see it for what it is: a fun casual format with wacky guidelines. I'm not sure I agree with the changing of rule #7 however!
I was playing harem with a buddy of mine (Jason: This is Zac from F4A btw ;) ) at Grand Prix Columbus a few years back and actually got a quick blurb in BDM's blog coverage for the format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/blo... (scroll down to just under the pic of Empty the Warrens).
I'd love to play with you again if you would like to friend me online, same name as here, as well as anybody else who would enjoy playing the format with me (also open to rainbow stairwell invitations!). :)
Edit: in response to Paul, "Rape and Plunder" just gave me an amazing pirates.dek idea. What a great name, thank you!!
Props on the article Jason, I had thought this format long dead after you had moved away since it was a local format to begin with anyway, and EDH became such a popular format. Harem is so much fun, as long as you can get over the name and theme and see it for what it is: a fun casual format with wacky guidelines. I'm not sure I agree with the changing of rule #7 however!
I was playing harem with a buddy of mine (Jason: This is Zac from F4A btw ;) ) at Grand Prix Columbus a few years back and actually got a quick blurb in BDM's blog coverage for the format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/blo... (scroll down to just under the pic of Empty the Warrens).
I'd love to play with you again if you would like to friend me online, same name as here, as well as anybody else who would enjoy playing the format with me (also open to rainbow stairwell invitations!). :)
I really dislike current Standard, but the Big BUG deck (almost) tempts me into playing a bit. A bit more playtesting would be welcome, but it seems you'll get to that in future "episodes".
Keem 'em coming.
I think the best way to build this Pool is BWr. Flame Slash and Puncturing Bolt are too good to not end up in the deck. You even got a terramorphic expanse for fixing. Hand of Emrakul is supercrappy bad in a deck 17 Lands AND no way to get Spawn Tokens ( barring the Pawn but he is too conditional ).
Thought Gorger, while not a bomb is still a pretty strong card. Against decks like BR you put him down turn 4 as a 6/6 or bigger and see how they scoop. Against anything else its a lategame card that has usually a good size for the cost of lands. Trample on him is soooooo good with all the Spawns.
All in all slightly missbuild, but overall a weak pool anyway. I think it's really hard even for a good player to reach a good score with it.
Ob Nixilis seems good, but I just found better i think. Admonition Angel...just simply remove everything of their's from the game...
Yeah, Paul, I get your point. The name has always been an issue. We've had people who play it who refuse to call it Harem Format. Girl Power seems to be the most popular alternative name.
Leviathan: As a matter of fact, I just replaced Butcher with Nirkana Revenat. I was worried about the mana cost. We'll see if I like it or just decide to pull it for more removal.
I agree with you on Birthing (in most circumstances) and Bombardment, but Spawning Breath is better than you're giving it credit for - there are a lot of X/1s in the set, and it can be a huge tempo win vs. levelers. Might of the Masses is also a bit of a boom/bust card; it's a fine trick, don't get me wrong, but it suffers from all of the issues that tricks generally do and it's easy to overvalue. I do agree in the broad that the green curve is much better, but the red removal is so good (and so important) that IMHO it more than makes up for the difference in dorks. (Though I also agree that it means red is more likely to be a support color than a base color.)
Some people love rogue decks. Keep 'em coming! I've been brewing on my own, so it's cool to see what others are coming up with.
I could be wrong but I think you might have missed the point of the objections. Just as the objectors seem to have missed your points. Ironic eh? I mean they are really complaining about the ATTITUDE behind the word harem. As if we lived in a world where such things actually exist. Oh wait no, they do. It might be akin to calling a deck "Rape and Plunder". Some people have no problems with the word Rape (it is after all a plant too) but in most people's minds it is a negative word used to describe a horrible act of violence USUALLY perpetrated on women but sometimes also on men.
Do you see the point? It isn't that the format is about women, or objectifying women, or fantasizing about great sexy art. It is really an objection about the culture behind such a name. And the thinking that goes into such words. Sure it was a joke name and I got it and didn't go screaming my head off about it. But I knew you'd get this response as soon as I read the title. If you put yourself out there (as you did) be prepared for the backlash.