I really don't get that. If you were facing first turn Iona blocking your main color or the color of your only way to deal with her, that would be fair instead?
If you had plains and path to exile, probably that would be an automatic win for you as your opponent used almost all his opening hand to pull that. The entomb/exhume mechanic can be flawed, but let's not blame the Eldrazis for that. :-)
oh well then in that case you are correct. and anyone that would do that in multiplayer is a risky player to begin with. talk about asking to get stomped by three people at once....
But yes, my point from the example I gave, if this is the type of behaviors we can expect in legacy/classic...... time for FoW to go up in price again.
Wow my brain must have malfunctioned, I don’t know where I got two from. I’m even using one of the other ways to sneak Eldrazi into play alongside Polymorph in one of my Std decks.
It must have been a case of not seeing the trees for the forest.
I think (as per usual it seems) you missed my point, or decided to be uncharacteristically sarcastic for no reason. Obviously it hasn't changed magic at all. Nothing is ever different in magic, that's why we always play the same 3 decks with the same 10 cards in the same one dull format. Duh!
You could no longer build fun decks if everybody always got them out on turn 4 as opposed to turn 7, turn 12, or turn 18. If the current "fad" for running lots of them never lets up. If your decks didn't have removal or large creatures that can block and trade anyway. And if your decks never win the game on or before turn 7, 12 or 18 anyway. (I'll punt the turn 4s.)
Most of my decks do just fine already. And plenty of other decks can slip one past you and win on turn 4 or 5. Boros Bushwhacker, Red Deck Wins, Allies... I don't think a bunch of 8-15 mana spells changes Magic all that much, they just cost too much.
P.S. Let's not forget Remove Soul and discard effects, and Pacifism type spells, shall we?
I count 10 plausible: Piper, Polymorph, Brilliant Ultimatum, Summoning Trap, Maelstrom Angel, Lurking Predators, Mayael the Anima, Warp World, Djinn of Wishes and Hellcarver Demon. Theoretically you can cascade into an Eldrazi off an Eldrazi via Maelstrom Nexus as well, but that's not really viable cheating. If your opponent is running Eldrazi, Sphinx Ambassador and Telemin Performance can yank them out of their library, or you can mill them for all but the legends and use Liliana Vess, Rise from the Grave or with ridiculous numbers of allies, Agadeem Occultist to get your reward.
To be honest i dont have a problem with CK or OH team decks. they are some of the few groups that label their tables, so anyone joining and being surprised is an idiot. I dont like the random tables with no warning where it's teamed or when a team jumps a table. I understand some people like the team aspect and some just want a group game. Though unannounced team decks is kinda pointless since two randoms would not really be a good test of the team's skill. Unlabeled team Is like playing superfriends in casual...you may win but it's like being the skinniest kid in fat camp.
I think you may have misunderstood. I was talking about in Commander, where there are multiple players, that usually someone is holding an answer. I haven't really been playing any other formats recently. I can definitely see the situation you are talking about being pretty annoying.
I had (It That Betrays) re-animated on tune one. My opponent was on the play and it went like this. Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Entomb -> Exhume. So that's an 11/11 with Annilator 2 that steals all my permanents. I looked at my opening hand, and my first turn was Forest -> play nothing, concede. My point being, Leviathan, while answers exist, you have to be playing exactly the right kind of answer AND you have to have it in your hand.
P.S. all Eldrazi creatures should be errata'ed to have a clause that says "Play this only from your hand or it is countered."
Honestly Leviathan answers this question in his 4th paragraph, most of the time if your playing in a 2hg without a team deck you get "idiot" parteners or less skilled parteners as i like to say and it is upsetting when you set for a game and get a player like that. And another reason to team deck is to make sure your style of conditions match. Let's say for instance i am playing a deck that thrieves off of hand destruction but my unteamed partener is playing a deck that needs people to keep cards in there hand, well we now have a problem.
The second thing,Bloodchief is a great card which is why you see it alot. Sorry i can't speak about standard play, but the writer's deck seems pretty tight, but there are tons of stuff that this card can feed off of in extended and classic. I mean if you drop a turn 1 swamp and mana crypt or lotus pedal and a bloodchief and a ebony owl or black vise your opponents have to come up with a answer quick. Even a well timed mesmeric orb can be deadly.
And last but not least, I really enjoyed this article props to themonkey, i couldn't tell by reading the article that it was your first one! Hope to see more from themonkey!
I guess what annoyed me was going in blind against teamed decks. Once I figured out what to look for, I was better prepared, meaning that I avoided those games that looked like they would be teamed, or I would grab a friend to join me. I think most of the time people go in expecting the "randomness," just as the writer in the article points out as one of the positives to the format. If you go up against a team, you feel cheated out of that randomness aspect.
Now I can understand that the nature of the format does lend itself to teaming. It's just a matter of knowing what you are in for.
I'm cool with you guys and OH, a bunch of those decks were pretty interesting. But I thought I'd mention what people should look out for when playing.
I agree. Designing your deck to win in 2HG should take into account your partner's deck. However multiplayer casual is generally not just about the win but the style so that is probably where the objection comes from.
What it means is you can no longer build fun decks because your deck list must contain x answers and has no room for anything not efficient and fast. Even so, Eldrazi.dec can slip one past you on turn 4 and just win if you draw poorly.
Standard decks actually have at least four ways to cheat Eldrazi into play. Summoning Trap and Brilliant Ultimatum have been used also.
For all the polymorph decks that people are going to be running around with, packing instant speed removal is good. When they aim polymorph at their token creature, hit it with lightning bolt or path to exile or terminate in response, and the polymorph will fizzle. Eldrazi are tough, but they can be dealt with just like all the past high power, strong ability, high mana cost fatties in Magic could be dealt with.
While it may be true that we in CerealKillaz often team decks or what is commonly referred to as such, we also often don't. The way to tell the difference is how the description is tagged. If it says CerealKillaz in it, assume it is teamed. However, the article writer most likely wouldn't see us if he was playing standard.
What I really don't get about you and Shard's argument is that you seem to be against teamed decks. It is my contention that any 2hg is ALWAYS a match between two sets of two teamed decks. To play it any other way, to me, is just something I can not do.
I think the extended deck could be improved by using Cloudpost/Vesuva over Tron. You can play Expedition Map or other land searchers to go with them. Just my 2 cents...
Very nice for a first article. A powerful deck on a really good budget. I'm wondering if the Lich Lords were worth it, or if they could have been replaced with something else? Like Sedraxis Specter, which seems like more of a threat?
I also like how you realized at the end that when playing this deck, it's almost an "I win" combo. Although I don't think it's quite that bad, you need to make sure that you have answers to commonly played stuff like this. You usually get a turn or two to find an answer before it gets active.
I used to play a lot more 2hg, basically for the reasons you stated (time). Unfortunately, I had similar experiences to Shard, fighting against team decks. Watch out for games started by the CerealKillaz and OnlyHell clans, cuz they are often teamed.
My other issue was playing with partners that were either idiots or just not paying attention. Blowing up the world when you had a good board position, being attacked by your teammate, failing to use an answer to save us from the loss. You are usually pretty dependent on your partner, and if your partner is an idiot, you're often screwed.
Are we going to see more? I'm sure talking about the prevalence of Cloudposts will give you an article or two.
The reason being I guess is because he has no ears."
I found this hilarious.
I've only been playing Commander recently, and the Eldrazi haven't made much of a presence. I've seen a couple of decks using Emrakul as their Commander, and every Omnath deck seems to be playing as many Eldrazi as they can. But usually someone has some sort of answer out there.
Nice article, I used to run a similar deck only it was just b/r and had megrims to go with the ascension. I like how you actually got some decent games going on in the Multi room. Normally ill join and random table where the one side is teamed and there was no way of knowing...so now i just stick to 1v1
Just as a suggestion, the Spawnsire of Ulamog, works like the wishes from everything i have seen so if anyone tries that deck you will need to build a sideboard for it.
Despite the lack of eye-candy, this was a great read...very well done. Playing to the outs is a lesson everyone needs to know, and it is put simply and elegant here. The wall of text almost made me not want to read, but your writing style kept me from the first paragraph, keep it up!
thats not entirely true, A1 I can deal with in mid game, but A6 + take another turn? that's game over.. I hated them before they were released and now that I've seen them? I hate them more. I cannot believe Wizards released a card that is as close to auto-win as Emrakul is
I really don't get that. If you were facing first turn Iona blocking your main color or the color of your only way to deal with her, that would be fair instead?
If you had plains and path to exile, probably that would be an automatic win for you as your opponent used almost all his opening hand to pull that. The entomb/exhume mechanic can be flawed, but let's not blame the Eldrazis for that. :-)
/quote all Eldrazi creatures should be errata'ed to have a clause that says "Play this only from your hand or it is countered." /unquote
In that case, their value would be 0,1 tix for the Mythic ones, and their design value would be 0.
oh well then in that case you are correct. and anyone that would do that in multiplayer is a risky player to begin with. talk about asking to get stomped by three people at once....
But yes, my point from the example I gave, if this is the type of behaviors we can expect in legacy/classic...... time for FoW to go up in price again.
Wow my brain must have malfunctioned, I don’t know where I got two from. I’m even using one of the other ways to sneak Eldrazi into play alongside Polymorph in one of my Std decks.
It must have been a case of not seeing the trees for the forest.
I think (as per usual it seems) you missed my point, or decided to be uncharacteristically sarcastic for no reason. Obviously it hasn't changed magic at all. Nothing is ever different in magic, that's why we always play the same 3 decks with the same 10 cards in the same one dull format. Duh!
You could no longer build fun decks if everybody always got them out on turn 4 as opposed to turn 7, turn 12, or turn 18. If the current "fad" for running lots of them never lets up. If your decks didn't have removal or large creatures that can block and trade anyway. And if your decks never win the game on or before turn 7, 12 or 18 anyway. (I'll punt the turn 4s.)
Most of my decks do just fine already. And plenty of other decks can slip one past you and win on turn 4 or 5. Boros Bushwhacker, Red Deck Wins, Allies... I don't think a bunch of 8-15 mana spells changes Magic all that much, they just cost too much.
P.S. Let's not forget Remove Soul and discard effects, and Pacifism type spells, shall we?
Impromptu raid could also be fun...
I count 10 plausible: Piper, Polymorph, Brilliant Ultimatum, Summoning Trap, Maelstrom Angel, Lurking Predators, Mayael the Anima, Warp World, Djinn of Wishes and Hellcarver Demon. Theoretically you can cascade into an Eldrazi off an Eldrazi via Maelstrom Nexus as well, but that's not really viable cheating. If your opponent is running Eldrazi, Sphinx Ambassador and Telemin Performance can yank them out of their library, or you can mill them for all but the legends and use Liliana Vess, Rise from the Grave or with ridiculous numbers of allies, Agadeem Occultist to get your reward.
To be honest i dont have a problem with CK or OH team decks. they are some of the few groups that label their tables, so anyone joining and being surprised is an idiot. I dont like the random tables with no warning where it's teamed or when a team jumps a table. I understand some people like the team aspect and some just want a group game. Though unannounced team decks is kinda pointless since two randoms would not really be a good test of the team's skill. Unlabeled team Is like playing superfriends in casual...you may win but it's like being the skinniest kid in fat camp.
I think you may have misunderstood. I was talking about in Commander, where there are multiple players, that usually someone is holding an answer. I haven't really been playing any other formats recently. I can definitely see the situation you are talking about being pretty annoying.
I had (It That Betrays) re-animated on tune one. My opponent was on the play and it went like this. Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Entomb -> Exhume. So that's an 11/11 with Annilator 2 that steals all my permanents. I looked at my opening hand, and my first turn was Forest -> play nothing, concede. My point being, Leviathan, while answers exist, you have to be playing exactly the right kind of answer AND you have to have it in your hand.
P.S. all Eldrazi creatures should be errata'ed to have a clause that says "Play this only from your hand or it is countered."
Honestly Leviathan answers this question in his 4th paragraph, most of the time if your playing in a 2hg without a team deck you get "idiot" parteners or less skilled parteners as i like to say and it is upsetting when you set for a game and get a player like that. And another reason to team deck is to make sure your style of conditions match. Let's say for instance i am playing a deck that thrieves off of hand destruction but my unteamed partener is playing a deck that needs people to keep cards in there hand, well we now have a problem.
The second thing,Bloodchief is a great card which is why you see it alot. Sorry i can't speak about standard play, but the writer's deck seems pretty tight, but there are tons of stuff that this card can feed off of in extended and classic. I mean if you drop a turn 1 swamp and mana crypt or lotus pedal and a bloodchief and a ebony owl or black vise your opponents have to come up with a answer quick. Even a well timed mesmeric orb can be deadly.
And last but not least, I really enjoyed this article props to themonkey, i couldn't tell by reading the article that it was your first one! Hope to see more from themonkey!
I guess what annoyed me was going in blind against teamed decks. Once I figured out what to look for, I was better prepared, meaning that I avoided those games that looked like they would be teamed, or I would grab a friend to join me. I think most of the time people go in expecting the "randomness," just as the writer in the article points out as one of the positives to the format. If you go up against a team, you feel cheated out of that randomness aspect.
Now I can understand that the nature of the format does lend itself to teaming. It's just a matter of knowing what you are in for.
I'm cool with you guys and OH, a bunch of those decks were pretty interesting. But I thought I'd mention what people should look out for when playing.
I agree. Designing your deck to win in 2HG should take into account your partner's deck. However multiplayer casual is generally not just about the win but the style so that is probably where the objection comes from.
What it means is you can no longer build fun decks because your deck list must contain x answers and has no room for anything not efficient and fast. Even so, Eldrazi.dec can slip one past you on turn 4 and just win if you draw poorly.
You and I agree 100% there.
Standard decks actually have at least four ways to cheat Eldrazi into play. Summoning Trap and Brilliant Ultimatum have been used also.
For all the polymorph decks that people are going to be running around with, packing instant speed removal is good. When they aim polymorph at their token creature, hit it with lightning bolt or path to exile or terminate in response, and the polymorph will fizzle. Eldrazi are tough, but they can be dealt with just like all the past high power, strong ability, high mana cost fatties in Magic could be dealt with.
While it may be true that we in CerealKillaz often team decks or what is commonly referred to as such, we also often don't. The way to tell the difference is how the description is tagged. If it says CerealKillaz in it, assume it is teamed. However, the article writer most likely wouldn't see us if he was playing standard.
What I really don't get about you and Shard's argument is that you seem to be against teamed decks. It is my contention that any 2hg is ALWAYS a match between two sets of two teamed decks. To play it any other way, to me, is just something I can not do.
Nice article, by the way, yo.
I think the extended deck could be improved by using Cloudpost/Vesuva over Tron. You can play Expedition Map or other land searchers to go with them. Just my 2 cents...
Very nice for a first article. A powerful deck on a really good budget. I'm wondering if the Lich Lords were worth it, or if they could have been replaced with something else? Like Sedraxis Specter, which seems like more of a threat?
I also like how you realized at the end that when playing this deck, it's almost an "I win" combo. Although I don't think it's quite that bad, you need to make sure that you have answers to commonly played stuff like this. You usually get a turn or two to find an answer before it gets active.
I used to play a lot more 2hg, basically for the reasons you stated (time). Unfortunately, I had similar experiences to Shard, fighting against team decks. Watch out for games started by the CerealKillaz and OnlyHell clans, cuz they are often teamed.
My other issue was playing with partners that were either idiots or just not paying attention. Blowing up the world when you had a good board position, being attacked by your teammate, failing to use an answer to save us from the loss. You are usually pretty dependent on your partner, and if your partner is an idiot, you're often screwed.
Are we going to see more? I'm sure talking about the prevalence of Cloudposts will give you an article or two.
"Your pleas for death shall go unheard.
The reason being I guess is because he has no ears."
I found this hilarious.
I've only been playing Commander recently, and the Eldrazi haven't made much of a presence. I've seen a couple of decks using Emrakul as their Commander, and every Omnath deck seems to be playing as many Eldrazi as they can. But usually someone has some sort of answer out there.
Nice article, I used to run a similar deck only it was just b/r and had megrims to go with the ascension. I like how you actually got some decent games going on in the Multi room. Normally ill join and random table where the one side is teamed and there was no way of knowing...so now i just stick to 1v1
Just as a suggestion, the Spawnsire of Ulamog, works like the wishes from everything i have seen so if anyone tries that deck you will need to build a sideboard for it.
Despite the lack of eye-candy, this was a great read...very well done. Playing to the outs is a lesson everyone needs to know, and it is put simply and elegant here. The wall of text almost made me not want to read, but your writing style kept me from the first paragraph, keep it up!
thats not entirely true, A1 I can deal with in mid game, but A6 + take another turn? that's game over.. I hated them before they were released and now that I've seen them? I hate them more. I cannot believe Wizards released a card that is as close to auto-win as Emrakul is