I like the revised list, we need to work with this now, to see what happens, it was a fun competition this week, some interesting decks the wheel/e-shield combo is not invincible I played against it in some practise matches, and a couple of times got round it. But all and all some interesting decks this week. Lets see what next week brings, going back to my out there tribes for next week.
I'm a huge U/G fan, but one of the reasons the combination works is that (if you draft right) you usually get opportunity to splash whatever removal you can pick up, whether it's that one Flame Slash and a Spawning Breath or a Vendetta and a somehow-late Last Kiss. It puts a bit of extra pressure on picking up fixing, but in my experience U/G splashes more profitably than anything else in the format.
Moat is a Rock Paper Scissors card. You either play a deck that can answer moat if you suspect you will see moats or you don't. Every deck CAN have answers to moat if they want. Red and Black have plenty of fliers which completely negate moat. Green and White of course run enchantment removal and Blue can counter has fliers galore and can bounce it. Every color can splash for removal.
Asking for moat to be banned is imho just laziness in deck building. My decks one and all have ways to deal with Moat and other insanities. Yes it is annoying. No I don't have any moats anymore. Yes I think it is an insanely good card. No I don't think it should be banned any more than Force of Will or Swords To Plowshares or Hatred etc.
B/W is a brave color combo in ROE. I was forced into once, and only won because it was built around a couple of bombs more so than a general theme. Although... now that I'm thinking about it I suppose that B/W levelers could in theory be a deck, with a Time of Heroes or two.
Off topic rant: I tried U/G ROE last night for the first time and I had what I thought was a pretty great deck. Except that it has ZERO ways to deal with an early Guul Draz Assassin. It just laughed at my Narcolepsies and I couldn't assemble a Regress/counterspell combo in time. It was the most hopeless I had ever felt in a draft match.
It would not overly suprize me to see entomb make the banned list if people started actually affording the card and abusing it.
As for ritual and buried alive...Well i suppose thats one way to speed up Buried alive but obviously at the cost of your hand and available cards.
Besides for this type of deck thopters would be the least of my worries for a creature type...hell you gave me a great deck idea but i ain't spending no 100tics to make it happen lol.
While i agree that moat is a brutal strategy and a admittedly format warping card there's plenty of effects that are similar even if not exact that would replace it if it got the ban(not that its a good reason to not ban it but just sayin).
I personally put it in the same category as the wheel/e-shield combo..Brutal,efficient, perhaps even unfair but every deck should have a way to deal with it.
Standard didn't have the mana acceleration and creature combo's that we currently have available to create that turn kills. (Not to say that it wasn't brutal in standard because it was but to use a common example kiki+ any critter that untaps something when it comes into play)
eh okay so I wasnt really an "ass" I just went against the grain of the communities consensus of unwritten rules.
Now we're developing a rule set which while it wont stop people from complaining and bashing other players because of the "I didnt have fun factor" we've gone and taken great strides to hopefully discourage such behavior.
Also getting our format more publicity then it's had in a long time due to the controversy that was caused by the whole thing :).
I agree with keeping moat too. The cards to deal with moat most often won't be dead in your deck anyway. They're great for taking out artifacts or other enchants too.
What the ban moat crowd fails to mention, is that moat is a totally dead card vs a deck that is flying based. So you`re potentially putting yourself at a very severe disadvantage in a lot of match ups. I personally haven`t entered with a deck that wasn`t able to deal with moat yet.
I've actually found that fetch lands are fare more important that duals in your deck. I started off with a full playset of every real dual, and have since drastically cut back. Mana fixing creatures or artifacts can certainly help too. I think the real key will be having decks that have synergy together and can play as a team. Good luck everyone.
excellent use of 'craptacular.'
the only real criticism i could possibly level with the draft is:
p3,p1:invoker is actually a bit tempting. it's a decent win condition, especially because it's pretty late in the draft. you realistically only have about 2 shots at a splash worthy card coming 'round. (it came around)
i'm not sure i would have been brave enough to go white/black as i have a natural aversion to that colour combo and would have jettisoned one of my nice early picks for green.
as for the over all format: i like raredrafter a lot. i'd never seen it before. great article. keep 'em coming.
@shard:
in his deck, lavaflume is almost strictly worse than a lone missionary. he's never going to get much benefit from the anthem affect, and at all other times it's a very unspectacular body.
I've run aggro decks, I've run more controlling builds. I've won because of moat effects, I've lost because of moat effects. I see no reason to give them the boot.
I doubt that. There're plenty of other ways of slowing the game down than just moat. I completely disagree about moat making more tribes viable, it completely blocks any non-green/white aggressive tribes, and essentially prevents any "rush tribes" as you put it. There're plenty of cards (mass-removal, walls, lifegain etc.) which would stop aggro dominating the format without completely killing it off as a possibility.
as a note hypergenesis is on the watch list. As far as tooth and nail, well it wasnt unbeatable in standard when it was big. Its still good but I think compared to other options it is slightly more fair. And cards will move onto and off of the watch list as weeks progress. So what may not be closely watched now may be in a few weeks.
Ranth, I still maintain that being an arse, with purpose or no, is not a viable method to get what you want. It sets a dangerous precedent in any walk of life.
If it didn't warp the format, we'd end up with 'who can play their rush tribe first'. Checks and balances: Moat slows the format down and makes more tribes viable, resulting in a more interesting and diverse format. It isn't unbeatable by any means, and the fact it exists leads to decks with a greater capability to cope with noncreature threats.
You know it's interesting that you mention that Painter can certainly be called a utility card. I was always of the opinion that Tribal decks should really only contain creatures of the same type. Still, I'm happy to differ in opinion there.
I'm surprised that Moat hasn't at least made the "watch list". It may not be a combo, but it is by far and away the most format-warping card we've seen. Nobody can play a deck planning on winning with ground creatures unless they're running upwards of 4 anti-enchantment cards (or a lot of countermagic and discard, which tends to be frowned upon). As a result, people are only playing flying tribes or decks which try to end the game without attacking (i.e. combo or burn).
While it doesn't immediately win the game in a literal sense, it is basically a one card combo to block a huge number of decks from ever showing up in the first place.
I like the revised list, we need to work with this now, to see what happens, it was a fun competition this week, some interesting decks the wheel/e-shield combo is not invincible I played against it in some practise matches, and a couple of times got round it. But all and all some interesting decks this week. Lets see what next week brings, going back to my out there tribes for next week.
I'm a huge U/G fan, but one of the reasons the combination works is that (if you draft right) you usually get opportunity to splash whatever removal you can pick up, whether it's that one Flame Slash and a Spawning Breath or a Vendetta and a somehow-late Last Kiss. It puts a bit of extra pressure on picking up fixing, but in my experience U/G splashes more profitably than anything else in the format.
I appreciate it. Thank you. :)
Moat is a Rock Paper Scissors card. You either play a deck that can answer moat if you suspect you will see moats or you don't. Every deck CAN have answers to moat if they want. Red and Black have plenty of fliers which completely negate moat. Green and White of course run enchantment removal and Blue can counter has fliers galore and can bounce it. Every color can splash for removal.
Asking for moat to be banned is imho just laziness in deck building. My decks one and all have ways to deal with Moat and other insanities. Yes it is annoying. No I don't have any moats anymore. Yes I think it is an insanely good card. No I don't think it should be banned any more than Force of Will or Swords To Plowshares or Hatred etc.
B/W is a brave color combo in ROE. I was forced into once, and only won because it was built around a couple of bombs more so than a general theme. Although... now that I'm thinking about it I suppose that B/W levelers could in theory be a deck, with a Time of Heroes or two.
Off topic rant: I tried U/G ROE last night for the first time and I had what I thought was a pretty great deck. Except that it has ZERO ways to deal with an early Guul Draz Assassin. It just laughed at my Narcolepsies and I couldn't assemble a Regress/counterspell combo in time. It was the most hopeless I had ever felt in a draft match.
It would not overly suprize me to see entomb make the banned list if people started actually affording the card and abusing it.
As for ritual and buried alive...Well i suppose thats one way to speed up Buried alive but obviously at the cost of your hand and available cards.
Besides for this type of deck thopters would be the least of my worries for a creature type...hell you gave me a great deck idea but i ain't spending no 100tics to make it happen lol.
even that is easily stopped though...
While i agree that moat is a brutal strategy and a admittedly format warping card there's plenty of effects that are similar even if not exact that would replace it if it got the ban(not that its a good reason to not ban it but just sayin).
I personally put it in the same category as the wheel/e-shield combo..Brutal,efficient, perhaps even unfair but every deck should have a way to deal with it.
Standard didn't have the mana acceleration and creature combo's that we currently have available to create that turn kills. (Not to say that it wasn't brutal in standard because it was but to use a common example kiki+ any critter that untaps something when it comes into play)
eh okay so I wasnt really an "ass" I just went against the grain of the communities consensus of unwritten rules.
Now we're developing a rule set which while it wont stop people from complaining and bashing other players because of the "I didnt have fun factor" we've gone and taken great strides to hopefully discourage such behavior.
Also getting our format more publicity then it's had in a long time due to the controversy that was caused by the whole thing :).
I agree with keeping moat too. The cards to deal with moat most often won't be dead in your deck anyway. They're great for taking out artifacts or other enchants too.
What the ban moat crowd fails to mention, is that moat is a totally dead card vs a deck that is flying based. So you`re potentially putting yourself at a very severe disadvantage in a lot of match ups. I personally haven`t entered with a deck that wasn`t able to deal with moat yet.
I've actually found that fetch lands are fare more important that duals in your deck. I started off with a full playset of every real dual, and have since drastically cut back. Mana fixing creatures or artifacts can certainly help too. I think the real key will be having decks that have synergy together and can play as a team. Good luck everyone.
excellent use of 'craptacular.'
the only real criticism i could possibly level with the draft is:
p3,p1:invoker is actually a bit tempting. it's a decent win condition, especially because it's pretty late in the draft. you realistically only have about 2 shots at a splash worthy card coming 'round. (it came around)
i'm not sure i would have been brave enough to go white/black as i have a natural aversion to that colour combo and would have jettisoned one of my nice early picks for green.
as for the over all format: i like raredrafter a lot. i'd never seen it before. great article. keep 'em coming.
@shard:
in his deck, lavaflume is almost strictly worse than a lone missionary. he's never going to get much benefit from the anthem affect, and at all other times it's a very unspectacular body.
Honestly, I love these guys. Prismatic isn't my cup of tea, but greyes, if you need any help, let me know what I can do.
I'm going to post about the event on CQ now
I've run aggro decks, I've run more controlling builds. I've won because of moat effects, I've lost because of moat effects. I see no reason to give them the boot.
I doubt that. There're plenty of other ways of slowing the game down than just moat. I completely disagree about moat making more tribes viable, it completely blocks any non-green/white aggressive tribes, and essentially prevents any "rush tribes" as you put it. There're plenty of cards (mass-removal, walls, lifegain etc.) which would stop aggro dominating the format without completely killing it off as a possibility.
as a note hypergenesis is on the watch list. As far as tooth and nail, well it wasnt unbeatable in standard when it was big. Its still good but I think compared to other options it is slightly more fair. And cards will move onto and off of the watch list as weeks progress. So what may not be closely watched now may be in a few weeks.
Ranth, I still maintain that being an arse, with purpose or no, is not a viable method to get what you want. It sets a dangerous precedent in any walk of life.
Ixnay on the oatmay... (shifty eyes.)
If it didn't warp the format, we'd end up with 'who can play their rush tribe first'. Checks and balances: Moat slows the format down and makes more tribes viable, resulting in a more interesting and diverse format. It isn't unbeatable by any means, and the fact it exists leads to decks with a greater capability to cope with noncreature threats.
You know it's interesting that you mention that Painter can certainly be called a utility card. I was always of the opinion that Tribal decks should really only contain creatures of the same type. Still, I'm happy to differ in opinion there.
I'm surprised that Moat hasn't at least made the "watch list". It may not be a combo, but it is by far and away the most format-warping card we've seen. Nobody can play a deck planning on winning with ground creatures unless they're running upwards of 4 anti-enchantment cards (or a lot of countermagic and discard, which tends to be frowned upon). As a result, people are only playing flying tribes or decks which try to end the game without attacking (i.e. combo or burn).
While it doesn't immediately win the game in a literal sense, it is basically a one card combo to block a huge number of decks from ever showing up in the first place.
Well it looks like Buried Alive, Dark Ritual, and Entomb escaped banning.... Which means makes me really want to make that Ornithopter deck....
Turn 1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive for 3 Vengevines, Ornithopter, Ornithoper, attack for 12....
LE the vid i link down further i think shows u playing in the finals with a Lor-block fae deck :)
keep in mind anyone is welcome to join it though!
No there isnt, the format is only played during the event.