Pete accidentally put the wrong set for Jace once, then when people pointed it out, he purposely put Jace in more and more ridiculous sets each week. Looks like he's run out of Magic sets now and he's moving on to Baseball cards. Jace gets around.
is made by your comment, throwing a tantrum is not cheating, stupid and ridiculous yes, but cheating no. Beside if they run out their clock you win...are you going to report that? I must be the luckiest player on MTGO because I have been on here since 2002 and have never had anyone successfully "cheat" me with time
One of the seminars at worlds was on deck manipulation. Judges do know this stuff. Watch something like Jasmes Galea doing 673 King Street (Google it). I know how to do all the parts, including the riffles, but I way to rough to actually perform it. Watch the video of James Galea doing the trick (or someone else good), and see if you can spot all the tricks.
As for deck manipulation - if you want to try, you have to succeed every single time. A judge only has to see you perform less than perfectly once. For that matter, at the level of play where that sort of cheating matters, the other players will be watching, too. It's in their interest to catch cheaters, too.
Hey Steward, I have actually watched some of your classic matches in the daily's. That is unless there is someone with the exact same name as you do, haha.
But you can have your opponent and a judge shuffle the deck. It's still easy to manipulate the deck.
And yes, you will get the "well it's cheating". Well yeah, but a crime is only a crime if you get caught. Haha.
And do you think people still don't take advantage of things in the game? What about the large Blue creature from NPH? I doubt they have fixed the bug where you still get to draw all 5 cards just like the way fact or fiction works on MTGO, and when I played a draft, nobody stopped my opponents from putting getting all 5 cards instead of 2 separate stacks of cards.
The best time to manipulate the deck is during the sideboard. Once you have seen how a person shuffles, that is the best possible time to manipulate the deck.
Um before I start getting ready for New Years Eve, let me just get in one thing.
I have been playing poker since 5. I know people who are even better with cards than I am. But having judges are a joke. I can manipulate my deck any way I would like regardless of who is watching. It has even been made easier now that apparently you have to play with sleeves on your cards.
If I know someone that can pull 4 aces out of a shuffled deck, how is any judge going to do anything about that?
I'm not as good as some of my friends, but during the sideboard I will tell you my first seven cards and I will let you shuffle my deck.
I think that judges are people who should know how poker players are when it comes to manipulation, and then you should have judges that know the rules. Otherwise if people like me played paper, we would top deck every-single-time.
Give me a deck (I don't have any cards other than money ones left), come be a judge at an event, and I will let you stand right over me as I manipulate my deck.
It's no offense to you, I just think that card manipulation is something that most people don't want to talk about, but you would never know it's going on. I mean imagine if I went to the worlds and went undefeated with Tempered Steel because I started with the exact opening hand I needed every time?
I just think judges that only are there for the rules are a joke. You wouldn't see me mixing the cards one way or another. And you wouldn't know how to spot someone putting the top seven cards on top of the deck. Hence why I don't play paper.
the judge promos are slightly different. Wizards gives a pack of promo foils to judges, coverage reporters and so forth at each pro tour. Each pro tour introduces two new cards. Flusterstorm and One Eye were introduced at Worlds. PT Honolulu will intro a new set.
Force of Will is not unreasonable. In the past, Wizards has done some sweet cards: Sol Ring, Yawgmoth's Will, Survival, Natural Order, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Stifle, Mind's Desire, the good Wishes (back when they were playable), Dark Ritual, Demonic Tutor, etc. etc.
However, I agree completely with Warmonger. Stupid joke, on a level with Steamflogger Boss.
With Masques, we have cards that force you too respond - all the do this unless any player pays 2. F6 and F2 are not the answer. If someone activates those a half dozen times each end step, when they have no possible relevant effect on the board state, the opponent is forced to respond to every single one.
I understand your argument that clock management is the responsibility of each player, but we live in a world of memory leaks, lag, slow internet connections and a program that disconnects you but makes it appear that you are still connected. All that makes clock management not just a question of play speed.
In any case, as Paul pointed out, whether we think forcing an opponent to time out is morally right or wrong does not matter. Wizards has already answered that question. Stalling is a violation of the code of conduct. In other words, cheating.
If you cannot win with play skill, you should not get away with winning by cheating.
Wizards needs to get more cards into the system if it wants the old formats to survive. It needs to do something with Force of Will. It did with Wasteland.
Gainsbanding already mentioned it but those fow's circulating the net are fake. And they are obvious fakes at that as they feature the shooting star Icon which is not used in design anymore. Also the DCI logo is in the wrong place and the set number is wrong for promos. Assomeone who loves to make fake cards and attempt to fool the Internet with them, this FOW is pretty terribly done.
All that said there WAS in fact an alternate art FOW commissioned by WOTC howeverit was made in giant size (36" x 24") and given away as a prise. I would link it but I am at work and the WOTC webpage is blocked. It is really cool looking. They also did time walk.
I get your pov and somewhat agree about the responsibility to know the game etc but as was pointed out Whiffy it is possible to be gamed out via triggers that either force you to respond or skip all of your remaining actions for the turn and thus ceding advantage.
The guy who responded :p to my question as to his motives was admitting that he was hoping I'd F6 during my draw step. He had no other reason to make activations then (though there ARE good reasons to do so at times.) That is what they mean. I see that as shady but legal but apparently the CoC disagrees. So what you and I think about it does not matter.
it is impossible to cheat on mtgo. if there is a possibllitie of cheating, its a loop hole in the programming. stalling is cheating, and if your oppoonent has to resort to activating 30 triggers to slow you down, where is he getting the time to activate these triggers? Nope if you have your stops set and know how to f2 f6 f8 then there is no fault but your own if you time out.
Listened know, awesome stuff as usual. My Name is not Steward U-L-K btw, just pronounce it Steward Ulk, Ulk being a sepered Word, not a Abbrevation. Its "Joke/Jest" in German - http://woerterbuch.reverso.net/deutsch-englisch/Ulk ty :D
But it's not just the game. Your opponent's autoyields don't work if he has mana in his mana pool. He doesn't want to F6 if he still has things to do, like finish comboing out. Activating an irrelevant ability under those circumstances with the intention of running his clock out is cheating. Wizards does take action against players who do that.
It is each player's responsibility to pay attention to the game and to his own timer. But it's also each player's responsibility not to cheat, and not to tolerate cheating.
Ya plenty of stalling has everything to do with cheating or griefing. The most common offenders are the guys who run out their clocks once they know that they've lost the match to spite you. I had 2 guys in one draft do this to me and make all the other players and myself wait for their dumb temper tantrum to expire.
I disagree on this. Take this example, as it is one I have heard a lot in regards to stalling (actually have heard about multiple stalling cases with something similar.) One players is playing storm in pauper, the opponent is playing mono black with a crypt rats on board. While the first player is attempting to combo out and has mana in his pool, the second player activates crypt rats for 0. With having mana in his pool, the first player must click OK to this trigger, yet it has no effect at all on game state. Is this not stalling? Is it stalling if he does it five times? Is it stalling if he does it one hundred times? Allowing something like this does not seem like the way to go to me.
I think you are misunderstanding. Time happens. Sometimes decks lag out etc or people have complex decision trees or something outside distracts them and that's what Pete is talking about I think. The people who deliberately attack your clock via clicks knowing you can't/won't F6 because then you lose the game anyway.
But I agree it is still on you to protect your clock. It is just a shame that the way the game works you have to essentially share some of the burden of lag between machine and server etc with an opponent who might unscrupulously extend the delays on purpose. I suspect that is rather hard to actually prove intent for though unless the person does what I suggested and sets up a ton of triggers and then hits F6 themselves.
That's just the game though, on the OK for each trigger, the low time player needs to learn about F6..that doesn't make it cheating on the activaters part. It's each players responsibility to pay attention to the game and their own timer. Should I report someone for playing slow even if I win due to timeout? Seems silly. And besides, whiffy and I agree so it's got to be correct, lol.
Pete accidentally put the wrong set for Jace once, then when people pointed it out, he purposely put Jace in more and more ridiculous sets each week. Looks like he's run out of Magic sets now and he's moving on to Baseball cards. Jace gets around.
What's the joke with "Topps" being the set for Jace, the Mind Sculptor on your top ten list? Maybe I've been out of it too long. Enjoyable read.
is made by your comment, throwing a tantrum is not cheating, stupid and ridiculous yes, but cheating no. Beside if they run out their clock you win...are you going to report that? I must be the luckiest player on MTGO because I have been on here since 2002 and have never had anyone successfully "cheat" me with time
One of the seminars at worlds was on deck manipulation. Judges do know this stuff. Watch something like Jasmes Galea doing 673 King Street (Google it). I know how to do all the parts, including the riffles, but I way to rough to actually perform it. Watch the video of James Galea doing the trick (or someone else good), and see if you can spot all the tricks.
As for deck manipulation - if you want to try, you have to succeed every single time. A judge only has to see you perform less than perfectly once. For that matter, at the level of play where that sort of cheating matters, the other players will be watching, too. It's in their interest to catch cheaters, too.
Hope you picked some i did win ;D
Well u can manipulate/stack u deck as much as you want - if its still not sufficent randomised after ur Opponent shuffled it, only he is to blame.
Sure some ppl wll always take advantage such things. But if u randomize decent non of the above will happen.
btw you could have reported the game/draft and would have get a full compensation for it.
Hey Steward, I have actually watched some of your classic matches in the daily's. That is unless there is someone with the exact same name as you do, haha.
But you can have your opponent and a judge shuffle the deck. It's still easy to manipulate the deck.
And yes, you will get the "well it's cheating". Well yeah, but a crime is only a crime if you get caught. Haha.
And do you think people still don't take advantage of things in the game? What about the large Blue creature from NPH? I doubt they have fixed the bug where you still get to draw all 5 cards just like the way fact or fiction works on MTGO, and when I played a draft, nobody stopped my opponents from putting getting all 5 cards instead of 2 separate stacks of cards.
The best time to manipulate the deck is during the sideboard. Once you have seen how a person shuffles, that is the best possible time to manipulate the deck.
<<>>
Since ur Opponent has always the rigth to shuffle ur deck last u wont be able to do that.
Um before I start getting ready for New Years Eve, let me just get in one thing.
I have been playing poker since 5. I know people who are even better with cards than I am. But having judges are a joke. I can manipulate my deck any way I would like regardless of who is watching. It has even been made easier now that apparently you have to play with sleeves on your cards.
If I know someone that can pull 4 aces out of a shuffled deck, how is any judge going to do anything about that?
I'm not as good as some of my friends, but during the sideboard I will tell you my first seven cards and I will let you shuffle my deck.
I think that judges are people who should know how poker players are when it comes to manipulation, and then you should have judges that know the rules. Otherwise if people like me played paper, we would top deck every-single-time.
Give me a deck (I don't have any cards other than money ones left), come be a judge at an event, and I will let you stand right over me as I manipulate my deck.
It's no offense to you, I just think that card manipulation is something that most people don't want to talk about, but you would never know it's going on. I mean imagine if I went to the worlds and went undefeated with Tempered Steel because I started with the exact opening hand I needed every time?
I just think judges that only are there for the rules are a joke. You wouldn't see me mixing the cards one way or another. And you wouldn't know how to spot someone putting the top seven cards on top of the deck. Hence why I don't play paper.
the judge promos are slightly different. Wizards gives a pack of promo foils to judges, coverage reporters and so forth at each pro tour. Each pro tour introduces two new cards. Flusterstorm and One Eye were introduced at Worlds. PT Honolulu will intro a new set.
Force of Will is not unreasonable. In the past, Wizards has done some sweet cards: Sol Ring, Yawgmoth's Will, Survival, Natural Order, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Stifle, Mind's Desire, the good Wishes (back when they were playable), Dark Ritual, Demonic Tutor, etc. etc.
However, I agree completely with Warmonger. Stupid joke, on a level with Steamflogger Boss.
The picture I saw had the card being held, and the collector numbers were hidden by the hand. (and see my post above)
With Masques, we have cards that force you too respond - all the do this unless any player pays 2. F6 and F2 are not the answer. If someone activates those a half dozen times each end step, when they have no possible relevant effect on the board state, the opponent is forced to respond to every single one.
I understand your argument that clock management is the responsibility of each player, but we live in a world of memory leaks, lag, slow internet connections and a program that disconnects you but makes it appear that you are still connected. All that makes clock management not just a question of play speed.
In any case, as Paul pointed out, whether we think forcing an opponent to time out is morally right or wrong does not matter. Wizards has already answered that question. Stalling is a violation of the code of conduct. In other words, cheating.
If you cannot win with play skill, you should not get away with winning by cheating.
that would be Artemis, one of my feline home boys
Wizards needs to get more cards into the system if it wants the old formats to survive. It needs to do something with Force of Will. It did with Wasteland.
We can dream...
Gainsbanding already mentioned it but those fow's circulating the net are fake. And they are obvious fakes at that as they feature the shooting star Icon which is not used in design anymore. Also the DCI logo is in the wrong place and the set number is wrong for promos. Assomeone who loves to make fake cards and attempt to fool the Internet with them, this FOW is pretty terribly done.
All that said there WAS in fact an alternate art FOW commissioned by WOTC howeverit was made in giant size (36" x 24") and given away as a prise. I would link it but I am at work and the WOTC webpage is blocked. It is really cool looking. They also did time walk.
I always enjoy what seems to be a cat meowing at the end of the penguin tv intro.
The promo FOW was a fake, a Spanish "april fools" joke. Their version of that day is Dec. 28.
Links in Spanish, but the pictures tell the photoshopping story:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6717
http://www.prismagic.es/2011/12/feliz-dia-de-los-inocentes.html
I get your pov and somewhat agree about the responsibility to know the game etc but as was pointed out Whiffy it is possible to be gamed out via triggers that either force you to respond or skip all of your remaining actions for the turn and thus ceding advantage.
The guy who responded :p to my question as to his motives was admitting that he was hoping I'd F6 during my draw step. He had no other reason to make activations then (though there ARE good reasons to do so at times.) That is what they mean. I see that as shady but legal but apparently the CoC disagrees. So what you and I think about it does not matter.
it is impossible to cheat on mtgo. if there is a possibllitie of cheating, its a loop hole in the programming. stalling is cheating, and if your oppoonent has to resort to activating 30 triggers to slow you down, where is he getting the time to activate these triggers? Nope if you have your stops set and know how to f2 f6 f8 then there is no fault but your own if you time out.
Listened know, awesome stuff as usual. My Name is not Steward U-L-K btw, just pronounce it Steward Ulk, Ulk being a sepered Word, not a Abbrevation. Its "Joke/Jest" in German - http://woerterbuch.reverso.net/deutsch-englisch/Ulk ty :D
But it's not just the game. Your opponent's autoyields don't work if he has mana in his mana pool. He doesn't want to F6 if he still has things to do, like finish comboing out. Activating an irrelevant ability under those circumstances with the intention of running his clock out is cheating. Wizards does take action against players who do that.
It is each player's responsibility to pay attention to the game and to his own timer. But it's also each player's responsibility not to cheat, and not to tolerate cheating.
Ya plenty of stalling has everything to do with cheating or griefing. The most common offenders are the guys who run out their clocks once they know that they've lost the match to spite you. I had 2 guys in one draft do this to me and make all the other players and myself wait for their dumb temper tantrum to expire.
I disagree on this. Take this example, as it is one I have heard a lot in regards to stalling (actually have heard about multiple stalling cases with something similar.) One players is playing storm in pauper, the opponent is playing mono black with a crypt rats on board. While the first player is attempting to combo out and has mana in his pool, the second player activates crypt rats for 0. With having mana in his pool, the first player must click OK to this trigger, yet it has no effect at all on game state. Is this not stalling? Is it stalling if he does it five times? Is it stalling if he does it one hundred times? Allowing something like this does not seem like the way to go to me.
I think you are misunderstanding. Time happens. Sometimes decks lag out etc or people have complex decision trees or something outside distracts them and that's what Pete is talking about I think. The people who deliberately attack your clock via clicks knowing you can't/won't F6 because then you lose the game anyway.
But I agree it is still on you to protect your clock. It is just a shame that the way the game works you have to essentially share some of the burden of lag between machine and server etc with an opponent who might unscrupulously extend the delays on purpose. I suspect that is rather hard to actually prove intent for though unless the person does what I suggested and sets up a ton of triggers and then hits F6 themselves.
That's just the game though, on the OK for each trigger, the low time player needs to learn about F6..that doesn't make it cheating on the activaters part. It's each players responsibility to pay attention to the game and their own timer. Should I report someone for playing slow even if I win due to timeout? Seems silly. And besides, whiffy and I agree so it's got to be correct, lol.
Thanks for swelling my ego guys :)