isn't the new client meant to be able to support any type of format that a player makes up? I'm sure I heard that that was the intention somewhere. If that's the case, then this all becomes moot, unless you're asking for official tournament support which seems highly unlikely given the recent moves away from classic pauper and momir.
MBC is my nemesis at the moment, if it was played more often then it'd probably singlehandedly inspire me to ditch my mono green aggro deck - it's so hard to win that mathchup! I can't count the number of times I've lost the game after getting my opponent down to like 2 life but having my board cleared and just never having a hope of doing those final points of damage.
The aggro list looks interesting, the sac creatures I guess are its equivalent of all of the green pump spells (but slower, and with no possibility of getting that surprise blowout). It doesn't have the evasion and trample that mono green lists have, but I guess essence harvest helps out there. However, given that you don't have any real pump spells, beyond muta, it doesn't have the ability to do the really quick +4/+4 enhahced beatdowns that mono green can do, so you're opponent will probably be able to stabilise on a higher life total which makes burning them out with harvest tougher. Still, I like aggro so I might give it a shot :).
in your argument is advertising and that people will hear about and continue to try the format, whether they be new players who eventually quit or old player who love it or are looking for something new....I have never heard of you or your clan, so it's really apples to oranges with your numbers
PS. I'm not trying to discredit your points, just stating I don't think the correlation is relevant
JMason, I didn't mean to suggest you were arguing against the format. I'm sorry it seemed that way. I had re-read comments at gwyneds previous article prior to posting here, and some of comments over there influenced my post. I agree with a more recent poster who says it's only fair to hear both sides of the issue.
Wow.. I'm e-mailing THIS to WOTC.. Hands down the most comprehensive list of data concerning Standard Pauper. I'm glad you took the time to do this b/c I knew in my gut all along that the data was in favor of sanctioning Standard Pauper.
One thing HAS come to pass already in the sneak preview. You can construct Standard Pauper decks with a proper filter now. (Of course the v4 editor has some serious flaws but hopefully those will be fixed.) I am admittedly neutral to the idea of a Standard Pauper SE/PE since I generally do not participate in those, but I think the dedication of those who are fighting for it is noteworthy to say the least.
Good job gwyned.
Keep them coming.
I would also say that dont hate the posters who are negative or just seem to be negative.
We have to hear both sides of this.
When wotc reads these articles and comments, and yes I can say that I know they do because I point them here to read these to make sure they are very aware of it, they need to see what us the community as a whole thinks, not the just those of us who are 110% for this.
I feel that those posters out there who has comment against this happening are not saying they dont want to see it happen.
Jmason is only pointing out what others might , atleast hes being constructive and not just negative in a bad way. I can see where hes comeing from and I dont want anyone to feel they can voice concerns or just want to point out the pros and cons.
Im sure he wants this to happen as much as anyone.
So please keep commenting guys and lets keep showing wotc we notonly want this but need it.
since I don't link this to FB I'll make my reply here to the tortured lol no I have not played it, but I did lose against it, thought it was cool to see in monoB, and asked for the list.. I do see your point now that I look at it more closely that's probably a carry over from altering the DeadDog list, which could pitch it to mongrels
I'm with JMason on this, I'm not exactly against the format, just pointing out some serious flaws in an attempted counter-argument... I get the pro-argument of "it works nice as an intro to mtg" but most of the pro-arguments are "std pauper should be sanctioned because the people who already like it think its good"... I like prismatic, but I'm not going to say wizards should make it a thing
I used to play STD Pauper all the time. The main reason I got frustrated was the fact of not having a STD Pauper filter in the client to use while making games. Nothing sucks more than to try to test out a STD Pauper deck to find out your opponent did not read the description and is playing with a Tier 1 Classic Pauper deck. I still from time to time try to get back into the format and come across the same issues and I do not want to play in events with untested decks.
I guess what I am saying is that I would love to see STD Pauper become an official format, it would defiantly make me want to get back into the format knowing that I could play without worry of playing against decks that I know I have no chance against.
From experience over the years that I was playing STD Pauper I can say that the events were always packed full of players, most of the time 30 or more players making 4 or 5 rounds of swiss followed by a Top 8.
New recruits are going to try out the inexpensive formats, so of course will be highly represented in std pre, but many quit anyway.
I'm just saying you can't inflate demand for the format by including everyone who has ever tried it briefly (just like I can't claim 120 clan members when I know only 40 are active).
Not surprisingly I didn't take the time to manually check all 450 users. However, even if only a fraction of those are still online, the number is still indicative of lots of interest in the format. New players are finding the PRE and participating, and that trend is likely to continue.
I don't enjoy all the formats in Magic, but I welcome any format that might draw more people to the game.
I do enjoy Standard Pauper, and I appreciate the efforts of Gwyned and others who host and support the format.
I'd like to see WOTC embrace Standard Pauper as an entry level vehicle. The small card pool and "easy" complexity of the cards seem to make it appropriate for newer players. The low start up costs for players might make it attractive for people who were otherwise scared away by the $796 Standard decks. We all know how easy it is to become "hooked" on Magic - imagine getting hooked for $6.99?
If it were to be embraced as an entry level format, the events would have to be set up appropriately. I envision something similar to the Swiss Draft event format. The cost/prize structure would be a fine dance for WOTC, as they would have to balance the attractiveness of the events between serious players and newer players to round up enough interest.
I've been playing Magic since Revised. For years I tried the serious side of the game....PTQ's, GranPrix's, but with little success. I just don't take the game seriously enough to compete at high levels (ie: I'm a srub!) I do love the game though, and play it regularly in less serious environments (Pauper!) I guess that puts me in the casual camp, and that's fine by me. My money is still good, and I'd spend more of it on Magic if there were casual events to spend it on. (Okay the whole idea of a tournement event is moving away from casual, but I think a Swiss Standard Pauper with low prize supports is more casual than an online Premier Events. Right?)
MTGO has plenty of events to make money from serious players. It lacks events to make money from less serious players. Standard Pauper could be it.
while I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other I feel there were a few things that were, at the very least, overlooked...
RE Point 1: I think participation numbers are well and good, but you have to keep in mind a few things... first is that these are free to play events... not all players are willing to put up tickets to join events and will rather join PREs not to mention the current time of those PREs might be more favorable to players than whatever block is assigned via the DE schedule... next you have to consider that you're looking at two events and not taking into account how many individuals are playing both events, which makes the graphs a little misleading
RE Point 3: I think this is a valid point by the anti-side of things and yet I feel you didn't actually address it... I read those paragraphs and find they really don't tell me why you think it wouldn't divide the playerbase... there is a comment about an outcry from the community of points why it wouldn't but in order to get some idea of the reason (since you didn't sum it up) I had to read through forum responses which had one maybe two valid points and a bunch of std players saying "i prefer std to classic"... well of course you do.. that's why you're on a STD pauper forum... of course std people are going to for it, but that's not exactly an unbiased opinion
While 450 unique players in a year sounds like a good thing, have you checked the last log in date for each of those users? When I did this for my clan I discovered that if a player has not logged in for 2 weeks then they have likely quit mtgo. So 76 of our 124 members at that time had quit mtgo (61%). If the same ratio holds true for your 450 players, then only 174 will have been retained as potential sources of income to wotc.
I'm hoping to get into it soon, but I'm assuming there'll be a list revision shortly after M13 if I understand the process correctly, so I'm waiting until then before getting my first deck.
I have a provisional list written, but so many cards are on the borderline of being removed from the format so I don't want to risk it.
I can't recommend Heirloom enough to people who want to get a lot of magic for very little cash on MTGO, with both free Standard and free Classic events firing every week it's certainly worth keeping in mind. (prizes by MTGOtraders makes going infinite infinitely doable as well)
The decks look like fun, except for the use of Vorinclex. However, I gotta agree with the other people that Craterhoof Behemoth definitely warrants inclusion. If you're playing a 10 mana sorcery, you pretty much want to say "I win!" after you cast it. Other things to include are haste enablers, such as Urabrask (which you have) or Fires of Yavimaya.
I also think that Eternal Witness, Anarchist and/or Izzet Chronarch (and the new Archaeomancer) deserve a shot. Why? So that you can play tutors and make the deck slightly more consistent. Even if it's just for Demonic Tutor and Diabolic Tutor, you'll be able to get Primal Surge off more consistently, then get it back to cast it again. Additionally, ramp creatures like Yavimaya Dryad, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf are all ways to thin your deck and ramp.
It's essentially a variation of a Warp World deck. Warp decks can get boring, as has been noted, but you get around that by making variations using different color combos. Good stuff.
isn't the new client meant to be able to support any type of format that a player makes up? I'm sure I heard that that was the intention somewhere. If that's the case, then this all becomes moot, unless you're asking for official tournament support which seems highly unlikely given the recent moves away from classic pauper and momir.
MBC is my nemesis at the moment, if it was played more often then it'd probably singlehandedly inspire me to ditch my mono green aggro deck - it's so hard to win that mathchup! I can't count the number of times I've lost the game after getting my opponent down to like 2 life but having my board cleared and just never having a hope of doing those final points of damage.
The aggro list looks interesting, the sac creatures I guess are its equivalent of all of the green pump spells (but slower, and with no possibility of getting that surprise blowout). It doesn't have the evasion and trample that mono green lists have, but I guess essence harvest helps out there. However, given that you don't have any real pump spells, beyond muta, it doesn't have the ability to do the really quick +4/+4 enhahced beatdowns that mono green can do, so you're opponent will probably be able to stabilise on a higher life total which makes burning them out with harvest tougher. Still, I like aggro so I might give it a shot :).
I also tweeted both of these articles at them. Doing my best to get the word out about it.
I already sent it, but feel free to do also.
The more they hear from us the community the better.
:)
in your argument is advertising and that people will hear about and continue to try the format, whether they be new players who eventually quit or old player who love it or are looking for something new....I have never heard of you or your clan, so it's really apples to oranges with your numbers
PS. I'm not trying to discredit your points, just stating I don't think the correlation is relevant
JMason, I didn't mean to suggest you were arguing against the format. I'm sorry it seemed that way. I had re-read comments at gwyneds previous article prior to posting here, and some of comments over there influenced my post. I agree with a more recent poster who says it's only fair to hear both sides of the issue.
Great article I'm really impressed with how you've been running this column so far. Keep up the good work!
Wow.. I'm e-mailing THIS to WOTC.. Hands down the most comprehensive list of data concerning Standard Pauper. I'm glad you took the time to do this b/c I knew in my gut all along that the data was in favor of sanctioning Standard Pauper.
One thing HAS come to pass already in the sneak preview. You can construct Standard Pauper decks with a proper filter now. (Of course the v4 editor has some serious flaws but hopefully those will be fixed.) I am admittedly neutral to the idea of a Standard Pauper SE/PE since I generally do not participate in those, but I think the dedication of those who are fighting for it is noteworthy to say the least.
Good job gwyned.
Keep them coming.
I would also say that dont hate the posters who are negative or just seem to be negative.
We have to hear both sides of this.
When wotc reads these articles and comments, and yes I can say that I know they do because I point them here to read these to make sure they are very aware of it, they need to see what us the community as a whole thinks, not the just those of us who are 110% for this.
I feel that those posters out there who has comment against this happening are not saying they dont want to see it happen.
Jmason is only pointing out what others might , atleast hes being constructive and not just negative in a bad way. I can see where hes comeing from and I dont want anyone to feel they can voice concerns or just want to point out the pros and cons.
Im sure he wants this to happen as much as anyone.
So please keep commenting guys and lets keep showing wotc we notonly want this but need it.
I've given the deck shown as "???" above a name:
Clown Car
:) Because all those multi-colored things keep piling out of it. I submitted it as such to Mike FLores for "Top Decks", as well.
since I don't link this to FB I'll make my reply here to the tortured lol no I have not played it, but I did lose against it, thought it was cool to see in monoB, and asked for the list.. I do see your point now that I look at it more closely that's probably a carry over from altering the DeadDog list, which could pitch it to mongrels
I'm with JMason on this, I'm not exactly against the format, just pointing out some serious flaws in an attempted counter-argument... I get the pro-argument of "it works nice as an intro to mtg" but most of the pro-arguments are "std pauper should be sanctioned because the people who already like it think its good"... I like prismatic, but I'm not going to say wizards should make it a thing
I used to play STD Pauper all the time. The main reason I got frustrated was the fact of not having a STD Pauper filter in the client to use while making games. Nothing sucks more than to try to test out a STD Pauper deck to find out your opponent did not read the description and is playing with a Tier 1 Classic Pauper deck. I still from time to time try to get back into the format and come across the same issues and I do not want to play in events with untested decks.
I guess what I am saying is that I would love to see STD Pauper become an official format, it would defiantly make me want to get back into the format knowing that I could play without worry of playing against decks that I know I have no chance against.
From experience over the years that I was playing STD Pauper I can say that the events were always packed full of players, most of the time 30 or more players making 4 or 5 rounds of swiss followed by a Top 8.
New recruits are going to try out the inexpensive formats, so of course will be highly represented in std pre, but many quit anyway.
I'm just saying you can't inflate demand for the format by including everyone who has ever tried it briefly (just like I can't claim 120 clan members when I know only 40 are active).
I'm not arguing against the format, I'm simply pointing out suspect reasoning that might damage the outcome of the campaign.
Not surprisingly I didn't take the time to manually check all 450 users. However, even if only a fraction of those are still online, the number is still indicative of lots of interest in the format. New players are finding the PRE and participating, and that trend is likely to continue.
Wow, still seeing arguments against the format.
I don't enjoy all the formats in Magic, but I welcome any format that might draw more people to the game.
I do enjoy Standard Pauper, and I appreciate the efforts of Gwyned and others who host and support the format.
I'd like to see WOTC embrace Standard Pauper as an entry level vehicle. The small card pool and "easy" complexity of the cards seem to make it appropriate for newer players. The low start up costs for players might make it attractive for people who were otherwise scared away by the $796 Standard decks. We all know how easy it is to become "hooked" on Magic - imagine getting hooked for $6.99?
If it were to be embraced as an entry level format, the events would have to be set up appropriately. I envision something similar to the Swiss Draft event format. The cost/prize structure would be a fine dance for WOTC, as they would have to balance the attractiveness of the events between serious players and newer players to round up enough interest.
I've been playing Magic since Revised. For years I tried the serious side of the game....PTQ's, GranPrix's, but with little success. I just don't take the game seriously enough to compete at high levels (ie: I'm a srub!) I do love the game though, and play it regularly in less serious environments (Pauper!) I guess that puts me in the casual camp, and that's fine by me. My money is still good, and I'd spend more of it on Magic if there were casual events to spend it on. (Okay the whole idea of a tournement event is moving away from casual, but I think a Swiss Standard Pauper with low prize supports is more casual than an online Premier Events. Right?)
MTGO has plenty of events to make money from serious players. It lacks events to make money from less serious players. Standard Pauper could be it.
while I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other I feel there were a few things that were, at the very least, overlooked...
RE Point 1: I think participation numbers are well and good, but you have to keep in mind a few things... first is that these are free to play events... not all players are willing to put up tickets to join events and will rather join PREs not to mention the current time of those PREs might be more favorable to players than whatever block is assigned via the DE schedule... next you have to consider that you're looking at two events and not taking into account how many individuals are playing both events, which makes the graphs a little misleading
RE Point 3: I think this is a valid point by the anti-side of things and yet I feel you didn't actually address it... I read those paragraphs and find they really don't tell me why you think it wouldn't divide the playerbase... there is a comment about an outcry from the community of points why it wouldn't but in order to get some idea of the reason (since you didn't sum it up) I had to read through forum responses which had one maybe two valid points and a bunch of std players saying "i prefer std to classic"... well of course you do.. that's why you're on a STD pauper forum... of course std people are going to for it, but that's not exactly an unbiased opinion
While 450 unique players in a year sounds like a good thing, have you checked the last log in date for each of those users? When I did this for my clan I discovered that if a player has not logged in for 2 weeks then they have likely quit mtgo. So 76 of our 124 members at that time had quit mtgo (61%). If the same ratio holds true for your 450 players, then only 174 will have been retained as potential sources of income to wotc.
I'm hoping to get into it soon, but I'm assuming there'll be a list revision shortly after M13 if I understand the process correctly, so I'm waiting until then before getting my first deck.
I have a provisional list written, but so many cards are on the borderline of being removed from the format so I don't want to risk it.
I can't recommend Heirloom enough to people who want to get a lot of magic for very little cash on MTGO, with both free Standard and free Classic events firing every week it's certainly worth keeping in mind. (prizes by MTGOtraders makes going infinite infinitely doable as well)
For the "I win now" condition, I made a Vorosh deck that had Laboratory Maniac and Jace Beleren in it. Fun times. :)
The decks look like fun, except for the use of Vorinclex. However, I gotta agree with the other people that Craterhoof Behemoth definitely warrants inclusion. If you're playing a 10 mana sorcery, you pretty much want to say "I win!" after you cast it. Other things to include are haste enablers, such as Urabrask (which you have) or Fires of Yavimaya.
I also think that Eternal Witness, Anarchist and/or Izzet Chronarch (and the new Archaeomancer) deserve a shot. Why? So that you can play tutors and make the deck slightly more consistent. Even if it's just for Demonic Tutor and Diabolic Tutor, you'll be able to get Primal Surge off more consistently, then get it back to cast it again. Additionally, ramp creatures like Yavimaya Dryad, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf are all ways to thin your deck and ramp.
It's essentially a variation of a Warp World deck. Warp decks can get boring, as has been noted, but you get around that by making variations using different color combos. Good stuff.