Yep, we discussed Entomb at some point. :)
I think my case was that, like I said here, the T9 were designed as generic useful cards, mostly removal, not linked to specific strategies. Also, they were originally the most played nonland noncreature cards – except Dark Ritual, because black didn't have any card at the top of that list, and I did want to "punish" it a bit, too. Of course, now that we've had a good numbers of Pure events, the T9 may have lost their statistical status (not sure actually, since they had a good margin and they're still massively played elsewhere). Singleton, too, creates statistical anomalies.
Uhm, how did you manage to enter a list half a hour later? Gatherling stops accepting lists 10 seconds later. In fact, you don't even get the link to register in the event as soon as it's the established starting time. Just curious to know what you exactly did. :)
I 100% agree that entomb is not overpowered in Tribal Legacy, however if cards were to be banned at the very least Vial which was already banned would need to join Entomb.
Kumagoro, does show up for more than the win, though. He is running the event, and his goal is not merely to win but to have fun doing so and have others have fun as well. If they win fairly then that's good too. Fun is the key goal, I believe, for Kuma.
I wouldn't ban Entomb for its power; many other legal card combos are more powerful. In fact, I predicted the best Angel Entomb deck I could make would get beat by Merfolk (with Vial, counterspells, speed, and islandwalk concerns, and showing in higher numbers due to having won the previous week). Maybe I could get a Platinum in time there, but it felt chancey. Some formats, I would feel more confident in scoring the tournament win. But if I were banning several power cards, I would certainly axe Entomb. Your theory seems to be only to ban power cards that are often abused; you'll have to make the judgment call regarding frequency, of course, but I hope there is an objective measuring stick.
I wouldn't feel cheesy about it. This is a format with several legacy-legal combos that aren't banned that are more powerful than the tribes that define the format. Also, there are no sideboards to help counteract the combos. You show up to win. If you deny yourself these powerful cards, anyone else can show up with them (I'm "guilty"), and then you will feel frustrated for the loss of your fair deck. I'm going to keep bringing combos (but not the same ones) until they get banned. :) Otherwise, I don't know how far the envelope can be pushed, and it's just recriminations (at self or others) to the point of unfunness. So I'll just bring them as it suits me, and let a third party (you) do something about them when you decide it's a problem. I'll respect your decision to ban them happily.
I have thought for quite some time that Entomb had become black's signature card in tribal wars, or black's "most abused" card as the T9 criteria designates. I may have actually suggested this change at some point myself, so I obviously approve :-) Entomb makes the reanimator strategies much more consistent, getting the exact fattie you need in the yard given the present board state, and without the need to draw into a fattie first and find a looting effect. It was banned in Legacy until a few years ago.
You get a QP for winning a swiss.
Also, you get three different opponents for a swiss. You can get the same player twice (or all three times) if you chain three 2-mans.
I was planning on playing Reanimator Angels (basically same list as yours) for a bit last week until I audibled since the Merfolk lists scared me. Unfortunately, I got the time wrong and entered a decklist a half-hour late, even though I was on MTGO when it started.
There is a ton of value to be had in triple saga, triple tempest, masques block, and triple mirage. I really hope they bring this in. While some of those formats have bad reputations, I found triple saga and masque blocks to actually be pretty fun. They are quite a bit different from modern draft formats, which all feel pretty similar to me. It's definitely worth noting that these drafts are now available in swiss and 8-4 instead of 4-3-2-2, which is a major upgrade. Swiss is especially attractive for unfamiliar formats.
I think the product +3 / 15 ticket price point is the same as what they charged before they started linking old set drafts to cube. For a while they were nix tix, but then they shifted to this price point. Then when they linked them to cube they changed the price again. I suspect this is just more incompetence in that they just went back to whatever they charged before and didn't really think about how players would feel about a perceived price gouge.
Also, I think you are spot on about Wizard's woeful communication and PR abilities. The marketing that you suggest -- having articles each week about the old set draft -- is perfect. Wizards will never do it.
Wizards could be saving themselves so many customers by being more generous now and by being transparent about their intentions. Magic has been able to coast for a long time without any serious competition, and as a result they have been able to try to build whatever business model they want. I suspect that will not remain true forever. With Hearthstone (and other competitors) on the horizon, Wizards is going to need to actually start thinking about the market. Increasing profits through price increases and prize cuts rather than by focusing on attracting and retaining players will only work if there isn't an alternative that is offering a cheaper product.
I'm glad you are enjoying them too! I think one of the key features for me is that these queues aren't really geared toward absolute grinders either. Because the payout is relatively flat you don't actually get as much benefit from being an extremely high level player. That makes these queues much more friendly to players that are perhaps not at quite a high skill level.
I like the point you made about these events being great for getting better at magic. One of the really intimidating factors about MTGO about a lot of players is that the level of competition is quite high, so less skilled limited players shy away from tournaments because they are afraid of losing. Of course, you need to lose and struggle some in order to get better just like you said. These queues offer a less painful way to do that while still building a collection (unlike phantom events).
Qualifier Point Only Phantom Cube Draft 8-4 Single Elimination
START TIMES Fire on demand, beginning 12:00 AM PST November 27, running through December 4, 2013.
LOCATION Limited queues.
ENTRY OPTIONS 15 Season 12 Qualifier Points
SIZE Eight players.
DURATION Three rounds, up to 50 minutes single-elimination (play ends on first match loss), plus 10 minutes deck construction. Each round begins two minutes after all matches in the previous round have completed.
Prizes
1st 8 Theros booster packs, 1 premium foil Land Tax
2nd 4 Theros booster packs, 1 standard, non-foil Land Tax
3rd - 4th 1 standard, non-foil Land Tax
Two or three years ago when they regularly had the weekly rotating Out of Print Drafts, they published the schedule of formats for each week a month or more ahead.
I really like your ideas of articles on the formats to promote them. I can't see them having the time to do videos though.
I really don't understand their communication problem. They have mtgo.com and it's in a blog format. Every single thing they say about MTGO should go on there. Done.
WOTC needs a PR department for WOTC, and they need to make sure they are trained on Issues and Crisis Management, because I've yet to see a good response from them, or anything other than worth being the scapegoat.
Wizards has no idea how to properly communicate with its player-base. They view their own forums as an outlet for market research, and to a lesser extent, public relations. Wizards will not address the legitimate concerns raised via forums. Do not expect clear communication. Expect random relevant answers on page 150 of a 185 page thread with no other links. Good luck finding those. Do not expect any post which criticizes the company (even indirectly) to survive more than a few hours before deletion.
It didn't used to be that way, but they had a clear policy change about three years ago. I could not post on their forums asking for help with MTGO issues, because every time I did, the posts were deleted because they made the program 'look bad'. I'm serious. I wish I wasn't.
This is what I think happened -- someone pushed for a new version of the client, which was designed by an intern or new fresh-from-college hire (who is no longer employed). The new version used up an incredible amount of programmer-hours (their programmers are excellent at rules stuff, but not so much at interfaces) and there's nothing to show for it. That same someone says 'we've spent $$$ on this new version, we gotta show something for it'. So they roll out the simul-client set-up. The bad new client somehow takes down their entire revenue stream. People panic. They try putting up super-bad events that no one wants because they never communicated with their playerbase before, so why start now? They give an 'appearance of communication' for PR, but they don't actually take any player suggestions. They don't run the game right. It's like setting a money-tree on fire. (It makes the part of me that is for Full-Value cry inside.)
Unless someone gets a clue, MTGO will not make any money without events. I think management finally did something thousands of addicted players never did -- they hit themselves hard in the revenue stream, so hard, that they much make drastic changes or face very real consequences. I'm sitting this one out. My larger monitor died and my smaller monitor can't even display the cards well at normal 1024x780 resolution. I won't get a new monitor until next year. I hope MTGO is still around for me then.
I was a bit surprised at how much you devoted to making videos for flashback drafts. I'm not saying these are bad ideas, far from it, but considering the current situation, I'd think WotC have far more pressing matters. I also thought you were rather soft on what WotC can do to reward players who stick with MODO. For one thing, they have to understand they can't expect to protect their revenue stream while their product is partially disabled. It seems crazy that we would have to ask for this, but I would seriously expect them to make the existing events as attractive financially as can be. I mean, it's not as if they still had a chance at getting those end-of-year bonuses...
On a side note, I know lack of communication is a bit of a tradition for WotC, but seriously? With prices coming down and a non-trivial number of players claiming to have sold their collection, would it not be nice if they tried to restore some confidence? A paragraph, a blurb, SOMETHING? The silence is just baffling. That and having Worths complain that people won't talk about anything else. *sigh*
I was thinking about writing something like this myself but I was too busy playing too many of these events! Happy to see this PSA. The current 6 booster sealed has brought back the grinder heaven that was the 4 pack sealed of yonder days.
Great EV is more than just value. It means playing in a less stressful event. Less pressure to perform extremely well means not only less negative experience but also more flexibility to have fun and enjoy your time instead of cursing every opponent's topdeck.
It also provides a place for scrubs to transform themselves into good players without bleeding so much money as you would in the 8-4s, and on top of the value it is swiss, so you get your whole 3 rounds every time barring dropped players. If 4 pack sealed never existed I would never have made the transition from terrible to sort of ok, and I hope newer players come to know that joy through these queues.
You confused me for a minute when you said you bought your Revised Black Lotus. I was thinking: I was playing during Revised, why the heck didn't I ever get a Lotus!!! But my guess is that you meant Unlimited. Just before my time :(
Yep, we discussed Entomb at some point. :)
I think my case was that, like I said here, the T9 were designed as generic useful cards, mostly removal, not linked to specific strategies. Also, they were originally the most played nonland noncreature cards – except Dark Ritual, because black didn't have any card at the top of that list, and I did want to "punish" it a bit, too. Of course, now that we've had a good numbers of Pure events, the T9 may have lost their statistical status (not sure actually, since they had a good margin and they're still massively played elsewhere). Singleton, too, creates statistical anomalies.
Uhm, how did you manage to enter a list half a hour later? Gatherling stops accepting lists 10 seconds later. In fact, you don't even get the link to register in the event as soon as it's the established starting time. Just curious to know what you exactly did. :)
I 100% agree that entomb is not overpowered in Tribal Legacy, however if cards were to be banned at the very least Vial which was already banned would need to join Entomb.
Kumagoro, does show up for more than the win, though. He is running the event, and his goal is not merely to win but to have fun doing so and have others have fun as well. If they win fairly then that's good too. Fun is the key goal, I believe, for Kuma.
Good to see you playing again BoB.
I wouldn't ban Entomb for its power; many other legal card combos are more powerful. In fact, I predicted the best Angel Entomb deck I could make would get beat by Merfolk (with Vial, counterspells, speed, and islandwalk concerns, and showing in higher numbers due to having won the previous week). Maybe I could get a Platinum in time there, but it felt chancey. Some formats, I would feel more confident in scoring the tournament win. But if I were banning several power cards, I would certainly axe Entomb. Your theory seems to be only to ban power cards that are often abused; you'll have to make the judgment call regarding frequency, of course, but I hope there is an objective measuring stick.
I wouldn't feel cheesy about it. This is a format with several legacy-legal combos that aren't banned that are more powerful than the tribes that define the format. Also, there are no sideboards to help counteract the combos. You show up to win. If you deny yourself these powerful cards, anyone else can show up with them (I'm "guilty"), and then you will feel frustrated for the loss of your fair deck. I'm going to keep bringing combos (but not the same ones) until they get banned. :) Otherwise, I don't know how far the envelope can be pushed, and it's just recriminations (at self or others) to the point of unfunness. So I'll just bring them as it suits me, and let a third party (you) do something about them when you decide it's a problem. I'll respect your decision to ban them happily.
almost forgot, I kinda love the idea of random pack drafts. It would probably suck, but I'd play it at least once or twice.
I have thought for quite some time that Entomb had become black's signature card in tribal wars, or black's "most abused" card as the T9 criteria designates. I may have actually suggested this change at some point myself, so I obviously approve :-) Entomb makes the reanimator strategies much more consistent, getting the exact fattie you need in the yard given the present board state, and without the need to draw into a fattie first and find a looting effect. It was banned in Legacy until a few years ago.
Ideally it should be 2 packs of each all at once. :)
You get a QP for winning a swiss.
Also, you get three different opponents for a swiss. You can get the same player twice (or all three times) if you chain three 2-mans.
I was planning on playing Reanimator Angels (basically same list as yours) for a bit last week until I audibled since the Merfolk lists scared me. Unfortunately, I got the time wrong and entered a decklist a half-hour late, even though I was on MTGO when it started.
There is a ton of value to be had in triple saga, triple tempest, masques block, and triple mirage. I really hope they bring this in. While some of those formats have bad reputations, I found triple saga and masque blocks to actually be pretty fun. They are quite a bit different from modern draft formats, which all feel pretty similar to me. It's definitely worth noting that these drafts are now available in swiss and 8-4 instead of 4-3-2-2, which is a major upgrade. Swiss is especially attractive for unfamiliar formats.
I think the product +3 / 15 ticket price point is the same as what they charged before they started linking old set drafts to cube. For a while they were nix tix, but then they shifted to this price point. Then when they linked them to cube they changed the price again. I suspect this is just more incompetence in that they just went back to whatever they charged before and didn't really think about how players would feel about a perceived price gouge.
Also, I think you are spot on about Wizard's woeful communication and PR abilities. The marketing that you suggest -- having articles each week about the old set draft -- is perfect. Wizards will never do it.
Wizards could be saving themselves so many customers by being more generous now and by being transparent about their intentions. Magic has been able to coast for a long time without any serious competition, and as a result they have been able to try to build whatever business model they want. I suspect that will not remain true forever. With Hearthstone (and other competitors) on the horizon, Wizards is going to need to actually start thinking about the market. Increasing profits through price increases and prize cuts rather than by focusing on attracting and retaining players will only work if there isn't an alternative that is offering a cheaper product.
I'm glad you are enjoying them too! I think one of the key features for me is that these queues aren't really geared toward absolute grinders either. Because the payout is relatively flat you don't actually get as much benefit from being an extremely high level player. That makes these queues much more friendly to players that are perhaps not at quite a high skill level.
I like the point you made about these events being great for getting better at magic. One of the really intimidating factors about MTGO about a lot of players is that the level of competition is quite high, so less skilled limited players shy away from tournaments because they are afraid of losing. Of course, you need to lose and struggle some in order to get better just like you said. These queues offer a less painful way to do that while still building a collection (unlike phantom events).
I shall endeavor to scrounge a slug deck. I want to play. I haven't in so long....
Qualifier Point Only Phantom Cube Draft 8-4 Single Elimination
START TIMES Fire on demand, beginning 12:00 AM PST November 27, running through December 4, 2013.
LOCATION Limited queues.
ENTRY OPTIONS 15 Season 12 Qualifier Points
SIZE Eight players.
DURATION Three rounds, up to 50 minutes single-elimination (play ends on first match loss), plus 10 minutes deck construction. Each round begins two minutes after all matches in the previous round have completed.
Prizes
1st 8 Theros booster packs, 1 premium foil Land Tax
2nd 4 Theros booster packs, 1 standard, non-foil Land Tax
3rd - 4th 1 standard, non-foil Land Tax
Hmm so I am confused. What exactly do you mean you can use your MOCS for draft queues? Instead of tickets and packs? I never heard of that...
I never saw the point of the Swiss queues. You pay 6 tickets, and get 3 matches, each one you win gets you one pack.
That's the same as just playing three 2 man queues, only you pay up front for all three and have to play them all back to back.
Two or three years ago when they regularly had the weekly rotating Out of Print Drafts, they published the schedule of formats for each week a month or more ahead.
I really like your ideas of articles on the formats to promote them. I can't see them having the time to do videos though.
I really don't understand their communication problem. They have mtgo.com and it's in a blog format. Every single thing they say about MTGO should go on there. Done.
Has to be unlimited, there where no Black Lotus nor Moxen in Revised
WOTC needs a PR department for WOTC, and they need to make sure they are trained on Issues and Crisis Management, because I've yet to see a good response from them, or anything other than worth being the scapegoat.
Wizards has no idea how to properly communicate with its player-base. They view their own forums as an outlet for market research, and to a lesser extent, public relations. Wizards will not address the legitimate concerns raised via forums. Do not expect clear communication. Expect random relevant answers on page 150 of a 185 page thread with no other links. Good luck finding those. Do not expect any post which criticizes the company (even indirectly) to survive more than a few hours before deletion.
It didn't used to be that way, but they had a clear policy change about three years ago. I could not post on their forums asking for help with MTGO issues, because every time I did, the posts were deleted because they made the program 'look bad'. I'm serious. I wish I wasn't.
This is what I think happened -- someone pushed for a new version of the client, which was designed by an intern or new fresh-from-college hire (who is no longer employed). The new version used up an incredible amount of programmer-hours (their programmers are excellent at rules stuff, but not so much at interfaces) and there's nothing to show for it. That same someone says 'we've spent $$$ on this new version, we gotta show something for it'. So they roll out the simul-client set-up. The bad new client somehow takes down their entire revenue stream. People panic. They try putting up super-bad events that no one wants because they never communicated with their playerbase before, so why start now? They give an 'appearance of communication' for PR, but they don't actually take any player suggestions. They don't run the game right. It's like setting a money-tree on fire. (It makes the part of me that is for Full-Value cry inside.)
Unless someone gets a clue, MTGO will not make any money without events. I think management finally did something thousands of addicted players never did -- they hit themselves hard in the revenue stream, so hard, that they much make drastic changes or face very real consequences. I'm sitting this one out. My larger monitor died and my smaller monitor can't even display the cards well at normal 1024x780 resolution. I won't get a new monitor until next year. I hope MTGO is still around for me then.
Thanks for the kind words. :)
MTGO is still sending a montly summary, I received my last one on 17OCT13.
Thanks for your article, as always.
I was a bit surprised at how much you devoted to making videos for flashback drafts. I'm not saying these are bad ideas, far from it, but considering the current situation, I'd think WotC have far more pressing matters. I also thought you were rather soft on what WotC can do to reward players who stick with MODO. For one thing, they have to understand they can't expect to protect their revenue stream while their product is partially disabled. It seems crazy that we would have to ask for this, but I would seriously expect them to make the existing events as attractive financially as can be. I mean, it's not as if they still had a chance at getting those end-of-year bonuses...
On a side note, I know lack of communication is a bit of a tradition for WotC, but seriously? With prices coming down and a non-trivial number of players claiming to have sold their collection, would it not be nice if they tried to restore some confidence? A paragraph, a blurb, SOMETHING? The silence is just baffling. That and having Worths complain that people won't talk about anything else. *sigh*
I was thinking about writing something like this myself but I was too busy playing too many of these events! Happy to see this PSA. The current 6 booster sealed has brought back the grinder heaven that was the 4 pack sealed of yonder days.
Great EV is more than just value. It means playing in a less stressful event. Less pressure to perform extremely well means not only less negative experience but also more flexibility to have fun and enjoy your time instead of cursing every opponent's topdeck.
It also provides a place for scrubs to transform themselves into good players without bleeding so much money as you would in the 8-4s, and on top of the value it is swiss, so you get your whole 3 rounds every time barring dropped players. If 4 pack sealed never existed I would never have made the transition from terrible to sort of ok, and I hope newer players come to know that joy through these queues.
You confused me for a minute when you said you bought your Revised Black Lotus. I was thinking: I was playing during Revised, why the heck didn't I ever get a Lotus!!! But my guess is that you meant Unlimited. Just before my time :(
Keep up the good work!
No problem shaffa my man. Also I am not against appearing on a podcast again.