The problem I have with curse is that in my opinion, CoP:Black just helps you so much more by stopping corrupt hitting you. Eventually you will run them out of cards while your stilling drawing a bunch. I can see an argument for it vs MBC but I don't think its better than CoP:Black, but I am willing to be wrong.
I am liking Curse against MBC actually; you lay one and you "only" have to gain enough life to survive Corrupt and/or Gary, but they usually die with mostly card advantage + removal in their hands.
I thought the same thing when I thought about using the curse and I've played a few games and felt that way about it too, but everyone is using them, I thought I was missing something. Also I see what you mean about counterspell being a strain on the mana, but its hard to replace it. Thanks for the reply.
Curse is a crutch IMO. If you play a solid control game you shouldn't need it and it'll often kill you against decks like Delver where all you actually needed was a Lone Missionary or something that way to survive, something you probably boarded out to bring in Curse. It's a classic win-more I think. I do like some countermagic in the main, although I think to be easy on the mana it should be a 1U spell.
Nice article ! This Izzet Spellheart Chimera deck is what I'm currently building in T2.
I'm not so sure about Steam Augury too.
I tried 4 Frostburn Weird to slowdown aggro, it works well. Anger do the job and the weird can do the first damages.
What d'you think about Jace M14 ?
"+1" do the drawing et "0" can mill down your opponent OR yourself if you have the chimera in play.
That's a third victory condition (after chimera & aetherling)
Haven't tested it yet but it could be effective.
I like Curse of the Swine too, with Anger it works very well.
But I'm very affraid of the miscutter hydra, almost game when in play !
No, because Merfolk is already good enough. Tribal-legal or near tribal legal merfolk decklists have won/t8ed legacy events up to and including the SCG open.
I confirm what Bazaar of Baghdad said. Nobody even got annoyed by Dark Ritual, which hasn't even been played that much. In the monthly Pure Tribal events, where you can't have off-tribe creatures, we also ban the most popular/abused noncreature nonland cards, which we call "Tribal 9" (or T9), and when I compiled that list based on statistics of use, black had no cards at all, so I wanted to include a black one too, and Dark Ritual seemed fitting enough, but it's not really that overpowered or overused. So now I decided to switch it with Entomb, despite the T9 not being usually focused on a specific strategy.
In fact, they are: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, Counterspell, Brainstorm, Green Sun's Zenith, and now Entomb.
Tx- and you hit the nail: an unhealthy love for t1 hypnotics :-) This was a great opener in the first german championship. The one and only competetive paper card event I was in and had to learn very fast that there was level beside the kitchen table. What a mess - the winner played only counters and won with opponents creatures taken by 'control magic'
Tribal has four usual sub-formats rotating once-a-month: Regular, Pure, Singleton, and Underdog. Dark Ritual, I believe, was banned only from the weekly Pure events. If I'm also not mistaken, the director of this series has already unilaterally (with participant input) taken Dark Ritual off the Pure ban list and replaced it with Entomb. You should be ready to lay those turn one Specters now.
Ups, unfortunately I Never found time for the tourney but enjoy to play some Games
in the casual room or reads the report here, but when playing Black at least out of nostalgy I would have rituals in it. Would
have never guessed they might had banned. So, sy if that annoyed someone. I Hope this Format stays and will grow- especially
As it seems my Big Love (100 Singleton) is already in the coffin.
I'd be delighted seeing vial added to the T10. The thing with Ogres is most of their strength is at higher casting costs, whereas the vial is at its best with multiple good lower casting costs. If it becomes active the turn after you play it, so much the better. However, the tribes which stand to benefit most from that, being good and cheap, are mostly the big shots themselves.
Owing to its nature, vial is not a good fit for more expensive tribes, and thus usually doesn't see play with them. It can't really help the ones you want it to help, and is limited to making the tribes that don't need the help even stronger. The net effect is the strong get stronger, the weak get weaker, and what you want can't happen.
That's all I meant by "enter"; I had my decklist loaded in notepad, went to Gatherling, and quite confusedly saw the Apocalypse in the ongoing events section. :/
@Bazaar:
Yes, I don't ban based on power. At least, not ONLY on power. First of all, power is weirdly subjective. And in general, there's too many powerful cards in Legacy. If you start to make a list of "powerful stuff", then you have to check for similar power levels, and then, what, ban them all? There's madness at the end of that road.
And, like Winter said, I'm not a regular player. I've a responsibility. I'm like a circus ringleader: I need to ensure that people keep coming to the show, and to do that, their experience needs to be satisfying.
This gives me the occasion to point out that a PRE like TribAp (or any PRE, really) isn't about making people win prizes. It's about making people have fun. It can't be for Spikes only, because it's not only frequented by Spikes, just like the game itself at large (which doesn't mean, of course, that it's not ALSO for Spikes).
Back to my responsibility, I can't play whatever. You can, I can't. I can't be "that guy". If the ringleader is the guy who prevents people from having fun, then we're in trouble.
I'll never get tired to repeat that I don't care about power combos that show up once per year (or twice, or 5 times), because their impact is essentially non-existent. So the argument of the power level is a non-argument to me. You know which card has a power level way higher than Entomb? Lightning Bolt. And it appears about 1000 times more frequently (by the way, we had a statistic page compiled by Vantar6697, you can find the link in the main Google sheet somewhere. I'm pushing for having a similar automatic statistics on Gatherling). Should we ban Lightning Bolt then? Of course not.
As for Entomb – and Show and Tell, let's not forget it – my position for ban consideration is that reanimator and cheat-into-play are popular enough, frequent enough, and linked to the tribal concept enough, since they're at least partially creature-based strategies.
And just like we still have strong Elves combo builds, but we don't allow for Glimpse of Nature (or Beck/Call) builds, because those start way too early and way too consistently, I'm now wondering if we should take out Entomb and Show and Tell too, so that reanimator and cheat-into-play builds will be still feasible and strong with other cards, but just a bit slower.
Entomb Reanimator is far from the most powerful deck out there (even with Angel), but it can lead to very meaningless, unfunny games, even when it loses – I know that because I played it enough, not just last week. If your build is super-dedicated, then when you lose, it's because you didn't draw into any enabler, or mulled too much in search of one, so you just stand there and watch your opponent kill you.
And it doesn't happen once per year, so it's not irrelevant.
I endorsed the Entomb/Exhume/Iona trick to punish mono-colored builds in the past (mostly Goblin, Elf, Merfolk), but I question the sense of this idea, that has also the unpleasant implication of punishing budget builds, which seems unfair and counterproductive.
@Winter:
I think Aether Vial isn't being played the way I'd want to (it's used "for evil and not for good"). It only shows up with Merfolk, but that's not an issue. The Merfolk are strong regardless, and they will soon be Big Shot, so they will be banned in the more protected events. I want to see Aether Vial help minor tribes, like, say, Ogre. That's why I brought it back.
I've considered to add it to the T9 (making them T10) as the colorless card of the bunch. But once Merfolk are out of the Pure events, taking Vial away with them defies the purpose or having it help Ogres and co.
Good stuff. Now I'm reconsidering which sphinxes I should have put in my Commander deck...
The problem I have with curse is that in my opinion, CoP:Black just helps you so much more by stopping corrupt hitting you. Eventually you will run them out of cards while your stilling drawing a bunch. I can see an argument for it vs MBC but I don't think its better than CoP:Black, but I am willing to be wrong.
I am liking Curse against MBC actually; you lay one and you "only" have to gain enough life to survive Corrupt and/or Gary, but they usually die with mostly card advantage + removal in their hands.
Mill Jace is an interesting choice, I like it. I don't really like curse of the swine, but that may just be a personal preference.
I thought the same thing when I thought about using the curse and I've played a few games and felt that way about it too, but everyone is using them, I thought I was missing something. Also I see what you mean about counterspell being a strain on the mana, but its hard to replace it. Thanks for the reply.
Curse is a crutch IMO. If you play a solid control game you shouldn't need it and it'll often kill you against decks like Delver where all you actually needed was a Lone Missionary or something that way to survive, something you probably boarded out to bring in Curse. It's a classic win-more I think. I do like some countermagic in the main, although I think to be easy on the mana it should be a 1U spell.
Nice article ! This Izzet Spellheart Chimera deck is what I'm currently building in T2.
I'm not so sure about Steam Augury too.
I tried 4 Frostburn Weird to slowdown aggro, it works well. Anger do the job and the weird can do the first damages.
What d'you think about Jace M14 ?
"+1" do the drawing et "0" can mill down your opponent OR yourself if you have the chimera in play.
That's a third victory condition (after chimera & aetherling)
Haven't tested it yet but it could be effective.
I like Curse of the Swine too, with Anger it works very well.
But I'm very affraid of the miscutter hydra, almost game when in play !
Nice to see some Standard on the channel, Chris!
As a sidenote, Sanovin also played a very similar deck here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EFGqjViohI
Funny I picture most goblins to be green skinned... :p
Thanks for the comment and correction mate, glad you enjoy the deck.
Thanx a lot for the clarification - very valuable for me to got it sorted out that way! Highly appreciated!
No, because Merfolk is already good enough. Tribal-legal or near tribal legal merfolk decklists have won/t8ed legacy events up to and including the SCG open.
"Can we experiment with putting Vial on the list, at the very least until Merfolk are out of Pure contention?"
I can do that, but isn't it going to slow down the process of getting Merfolk out of the way?
I get this is ironic, but it's beyond my pay grade: I didn't ban Jitte, WotC did.
No, and while we're at it - let Merfolk only have access to Jitte. Then we can get rid of them faster from the Pure events.
Can we experiment with putting Vial on the list, at the very least until Merfolk are out of Pure contention?
@Bazaar:
Yep, I'll announce the Dark Ritual/Entomb switcheroo on the next article.
And I'm not a director, I'm a ringleader. :)
I confirm what Bazaar of Baghdad said. Nobody even got annoyed by Dark Ritual, which hasn't even been played that much. In the monthly Pure Tribal events, where you can't have off-tribe creatures, we also ban the most popular/abused noncreature nonland cards, which we call "Tribal 9" (or T9), and when I compiled that list based on statistics of use, black had no cards at all, so I wanted to include a black one too, and Dark Ritual seemed fitting enough, but it's not really that overpowered or overused. So now I decided to switch it with Entomb, despite the T9 not being usually focused on a specific strategy.
In fact, they are: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, Counterspell, Brainstorm, Green Sun's Zenith, and now Entomb.
Tx- and you hit the nail: an unhealthy love for t1 hypnotics :-) This was a great opener in the first german championship. The one and only competetive paper card event I was in and had to learn very fast that there was level beside the kitchen table. What a mess - the winner played only counters and won with opponents creatures taken by 'control magic'
Tribal has four usual sub-formats rotating once-a-month: Regular, Pure, Singleton, and Underdog. Dark Ritual, I believe, was banned only from the weekly Pure events. If I'm also not mistaken, the director of this series has already unilaterally (with participant input) taken Dark Ritual off the Pure ban list and replaced it with Entomb. You should be ready to lay those turn one Specters now.
Ups, unfortunately I Never found time for the tourney but enjoy to play some Games
in the casual room or reads the report here, but when playing Black at least out of nostalgy I would have rituals in it. Would
have never guessed they might had banned. So, sy if that annoyed someone. I Hope this Format stays and will grow- especially
As it seems my Big Love (100 Singleton) is already in the coffin.
I'd be delighted seeing vial added to the T10. The thing with Ogres is most of their strength is at higher casting costs, whereas the vial is at its best with multiple good lower casting costs. If it becomes active the turn after you play it, so much the better. However, the tribes which stand to benefit most from that, being good and cheap, are mostly the big shots themselves.
Owing to its nature, vial is not a good fit for more expensive tribes, and thus usually doesn't see play with them. It can't really help the ones you want it to help, and is limited to making the tribes that don't need the help even stronger. The net effect is the strong get stronger, the weak get weaker, and what you want can't happen.
That's all I meant by "enter"; I had my decklist loaded in notepad, went to Gatherling, and quite confusedly saw the Apocalypse in the ongoing events section. :/
See now you are making me want to play Ogre vial lol.
@Bazaar:
Yes, I don't ban based on power. At least, not ONLY on power. First of all, power is weirdly subjective. And in general, there's too many powerful cards in Legacy. If you start to make a list of "powerful stuff", then you have to check for similar power levels, and then, what, ban them all? There's madness at the end of that road.
And, like Winter said, I'm not a regular player. I've a responsibility. I'm like a circus ringleader: I need to ensure that people keep coming to the show, and to do that, their experience needs to be satisfying.
This gives me the occasion to point out that a PRE like TribAp (or any PRE, really) isn't about making people win prizes. It's about making people have fun. It can't be for Spikes only, because it's not only frequented by Spikes, just like the game itself at large (which doesn't mean, of course, that it's not ALSO for Spikes).
Back to my responsibility, I can't play whatever. You can, I can't. I can't be "that guy". If the ringleader is the guy who prevents people from having fun, then we're in trouble.
I'll never get tired to repeat that I don't care about power combos that show up once per year (or twice, or 5 times), because their impact is essentially non-existent. So the argument of the power level is a non-argument to me. You know which card has a power level way higher than Entomb? Lightning Bolt. And it appears about 1000 times more frequently (by the way, we had a statistic page compiled by Vantar6697, you can find the link in the main Google sheet somewhere. I'm pushing for having a similar automatic statistics on Gatherling). Should we ban Lightning Bolt then? Of course not.
As for Entomb – and Show and Tell, let's not forget it – my position for ban consideration is that reanimator and cheat-into-play are popular enough, frequent enough, and linked to the tribal concept enough, since they're at least partially creature-based strategies.
And just like we still have strong Elves combo builds, but we don't allow for Glimpse of Nature (or Beck/Call) builds, because those start way too early and way too consistently, I'm now wondering if we should take out Entomb and Show and Tell too, so that reanimator and cheat-into-play builds will be still feasible and strong with other cards, but just a bit slower.
Entomb Reanimator is far from the most powerful deck out there (even with Angel), but it can lead to very meaningless, unfunny games, even when it loses – I know that because I played it enough, not just last week. If your build is super-dedicated, then when you lose, it's because you didn't draw into any enabler, or mulled too much in search of one, so you just stand there and watch your opponent kill you.
And it doesn't happen once per year, so it's not irrelevant.
I endorsed the Entomb/Exhume/Iona trick to punish mono-colored builds in the past (mostly Goblin, Elf, Merfolk), but I question the sense of this idea, that has also the unpleasant implication of punishing budget builds, which seems unfair and counterproductive.
@Winter:
I think Aether Vial isn't being played the way I'd want to (it's used "for evil and not for good"). It only shows up with Merfolk, but that's not an issue. The Merfolk are strong regardless, and they will soon be Big Shot, so they will be banned in the more protected events. I want to see Aether Vial help minor tribes, like, say, Ogre. That's why I brought it back.
I've considered to add it to the T9 (making them T10) as the colorless card of the bunch. But once Merfolk are out of the Pure events, taking Vial away with them defies the purpose or having it help Ogres and co.