In general, I agree that bans are best kept at a minimum. In specific, however, I'm against someone new to the event getting blown away by offtribe extras which are just there because they're good cards. It doesn't give a good representation of what makes the format enjoyable, and would likely lead to poor retention of new blood. The swords are the epitome of unfun, uninteractive experiences, sour memories and ill feeling. If you try to use an interesting monocoloured tribe and your opponent drops the right colour of sword on turn two or three, what are your options? There are answers, but finding answers that you can fit in your deck without detracting from its ability to do what it does and fight off everyone else is a substantial problem. If swords are legal, then why not Moat? A well placed sword can prevent attacking just as well and more besides.
There is considerable precedent for kicking out too-powerful equipment, with the elimination of Jitte and Skullclamp from the field by Wizards themselves. Given that creatures are mandatory and sideboards proscribed, this is a format where the benefits of running equipment are higher than ever. With that in mind, what equipment did people run? Any diversity or variance, or did those who would put in dominating off-tribe cards merely because they dominate choose the swords first and foremost?
Thank you to Alison for posting that. Naturally, it was posted in a place I don't visit anymore, so I'll reply the same way. Someone can pass it on or point it out to her if they like. :)
Hi, Alison!
It's wonderful to see all the different ways and websites laid out like that. I also think it'd be wonderful to simply say "Go to whatever . com and click on 'news'" instead of saying "check these three places, but there's more out there".
I realize that this would require a total top down revamp of the current process, including LIMITING how MANAGEMENT COMMUNICATES to the PUBLIC AT LARGE, and the powers that be are set in their ways, and it ain't gonna happen.
Re: the Wide Beta. I used to think Shiny sucked hairy donkey balls. Now I think "it doesn't suck". That is a significant improvement, and I am well pleased with Shiny progress. I can (and do) use it to play, even though it still does not log me off when I exit, and the chat implementation makes running events unpalatable.
Smawatts deck was brutal vs my myr (never draw a 2 cost myr while it mattered, never drew perilous myr at all,). I got nothing off the ground both games because of his fast turn 1 dark ritual start. That said I do think he took a great risk since I am one of those known to play mass removal. I didn't have any in my deck in that match because it was a deck concept being worked on (Tangle Wire + Myr) but probably would eventually have had at least BSZ if not Massacre/Mutilation. So kudos to him for a single loss in the event.
As you can see it was a post deck with swamps. Not actually a mono black deck as it appeared. The idea was slap down turn 1 locus turn 2 locus tangle wire and then proceed to get Gibbering Descent out to give myself a onesided eon hub effect. Unfortunately that idea needs a bit more tuning and hyper aggro vampires is just one reason the idea (like many in the format) doesn't work so well. Vs a slower deck it might have been reasonable.
I am torn on the swords.
On the one hand I hate bans of this nature. (They slow new blood into the format because of confusing and seemingly (informal) arbitrary rules. And they cause contention amongst those with limited collections which hurts the event further.) In my opinion banning cards makes the event hostile not friendly as intended.
On the other hand... Batterskull in particular is a heinous out of tribe creature that doesn't die as long as you are familiar with how it works. The swords can be annoying when someone plays a sub par tribe and shores that up with "protection from your whole tribe" items. I am of mixed feeling on that too.
So I am abstaining from voting for now. (I may change that later given persuasive argument.)
I vote yes to unbanning swords of x/y. I also think Batterskull is completely innocuous in an environment with no SFM, it's just a nice one-of for control or big mana artifact decks.
Aggro vamps actually are among the worst performing decks in tribal wars history. When we used to track these things, Vampire Lacerator had the lowest win % of any popular card.
Once again, another informative article. Well done! I'm already thrilled about your preview articles ;), these are even more exiting than the spoilers themselves.
Thanks for your article. And in another reality, Hearthstone got released on iOS and Android, got it's first single-player expansion and is working rather well. Hex is garnering more players, and Stoneforge also released it's first expansion without breaking its everything. Yes, yes, yes, Magic is the better game and it's more complex and blahblahblah, but AT SOME POINT, someone, somewhere (possibly in summertime) at Hasbro or Wizards is going to realize that Shiny is already 10 years behind. What will happen then is anyone's guess (my bet is a blog entry by Worth telling us they are striving to make a world class product...).
No on the Swords. It's a creature based format, good equipment is disproportionately powerful. The swords themselves generate too many 'oops I win' game states. One event a month with them in is one too many.
Thanks - I've been sitting across from Artisan of Forms and watched it be terrible several times as well. Don't think it's a first pick, but sure worked in this deck.
Actually, Atlas has always been the bearer of heavens. To think he was holding a planet is a common misconception because he's typically represented with a big globe on his back, but that was meant to represent the celestial sphere back in ancient times.
Excellent! Quite the twist of fate for the Dredge deck, which at one time was regarded as having no bad matchups, and now it seems like everything is. In my limited experience, I have not had a lot of trouble against the Esper Control deck, but the Mono Black, and especially the B/W decks, have been very tough. When you side in the spot removal I feel like you kind of just have to get lucky and not have it all go into the bin. I'll still be playing the Dredge deck until the next set comes out, but I don't see too many easy matchups.
I didn't discuss it as directly, but I think there are several reasons M15 is highly unlikely
1. Under the assumption they want ONS duals added to Modern, it would take up 10 slots in the core set which is quite a lot.
2. Core sets are not printed or opened nearly as much as blocks, so the number added would be less.
3. The 3 months on fetch-shockland would likely be too much. Don't forgot that Deathrite Shaman is still legal in standard.
4. Paying life to use a land is something that new players - which is what a core set is supposed to be about - do no like. That was why the painlands stopped being used.
Those all add up to make it seem pretty unlikely. The only ways I see it happening is if either the ONS or the ZEN fetches are reprinted in M15 and then all 10 in Huey block.
Google Docs is having coniption fits, and won't allow me to properly scale the meta charts. If/when Google Docs clams down, scales will return to "normal", whatever that may be.
I agree that there should be a democratically determined decision if you can't simply make one but it seemed like 30 was a high number to seek. 10 days from your proposal? How come I remember this discussion from last month? (Don't say "because you're insane, Paul" because while that could be true it isn't relevant here. :p
Meanwhile it seems you found a way to reach people so yay for that.
I almost find it had to believe that they *won't* be in standard within the next year. The only question for me is whether it's in M15 or Huey, on the model of core set duals set a few years ago I would have said M15 which also minimises any development/power level concerns other than one sweet three month period when standard has mana almost as good as modern. but the RTR method with shocklands also seems to have worked really well, so that seems probably more likely at the moment.
I forgot to mention (it seemed obvious) that as soon as one side hits 50%+1 of the quorum, that ends the voting. So with the recent influx of votes from the newsletter (people who don't read these articles and weren't in the room the last 2 weeks, but who do count in our community), we're 1 vote short for Kaleidoscope to ratify.
In general, I agree that bans are best kept at a minimum. In specific, however, I'm against someone new to the event getting blown away by offtribe extras which are just there because they're good cards. It doesn't give a good representation of what makes the format enjoyable, and would likely lead to poor retention of new blood. The swords are the epitome of unfun, uninteractive experiences, sour memories and ill feeling. If you try to use an interesting monocoloured tribe and your opponent drops the right colour of sword on turn two or three, what are your options? There are answers, but finding answers that you can fit in your deck without detracting from its ability to do what it does and fight off everyone else is a substantial problem. If swords are legal, then why not Moat? A well placed sword can prevent attacking just as well and more besides.
There is considerable precedent for kicking out too-powerful equipment, with the elimination of Jitte and Skullclamp from the field by Wizards themselves. Given that creatures are mandatory and sideboards proscribed, this is a format where the benefits of running equipment are higher than ever. With that in mind, what equipment did people run? Any diversity or variance, or did those who would put in dominating off-tribe cards merely because they dominate choose the swords first and foremost?
Thank you to Alison for posting that. Naturally, it was posted in a place I don't visit anymore, so I'll reply the same way. Someone can pass it on or point it out to her if they like. :)
Hi, Alison!
It's wonderful to see all the different ways and websites laid out like that. I also think it'd be wonderful to simply say "Go to whatever . com and click on 'news'" instead of saying "check these three places, but there's more out there".
I realize that this would require a total top down revamp of the current process, including LIMITING how MANAGEMENT COMMUNICATES to the PUBLIC AT LARGE, and the powers that be are set in their ways, and it ain't gonna happen.
Re: the Wide Beta. I used to think Shiny sucked hairy donkey balls. Now I think "it doesn't suck". That is a significant improvement, and I am well pleased with Shiny progress. I can (and do) use it to play, even though it still does not log me off when I exit, and the chat implementation makes running events unpalatable.
Smawatts deck was brutal vs my myr (never draw a 2 cost myr while it mattered, never drew perilous myr at all,). I got nothing off the ground both games because of his fast turn 1 dark ritual start. That said I do think he took a great risk since I am one of those known to play mass removal. I didn't have any in my deck in that match because it was a deck concept being worked on (Tangle Wire + Myr) but probably would eventually have had at least BSZ if not Massacre/Mutilation. So kudos to him for a single loss in the event.
my list at that event:
2 Myr Galvanizer
2 Masticore
1 Myr Sire
3 Gibbering Descent
8 Swamp
4 Tangle Wire
1 Myr Turbine
1 Shimmer Myr
3 Palladium Myr
1 Trading Post
2 Throne of Geth
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Myr Retriever
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Perilous Myr
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Eon Hub
3 Ichor Wellspring
4 Leaden Myr
1 Myr Propagator
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Myr Reservoir
4 Glimmerpost
As you can see it was a post deck with swamps. Not actually a mono black deck as it appeared. The idea was slap down turn 1 locus turn 2 locus tangle wire and then proceed to get Gibbering Descent out to give myself a onesided eon hub effect. Unfortunately that idea needs a bit more tuning and hyper aggro vampires is just one reason the idea (like many in the format) doesn't work so well. Vs a slower deck it might have been reasonable.
I am torn on the swords.
On the one hand I hate bans of this nature. (They slow new blood into the format because of confusing and seemingly (informal) arbitrary rules. And they cause contention amongst those with limited collections which hurts the event further.) In my opinion banning cards makes the event hostile not friendly as intended.
On the other hand... Batterskull in particular is a heinous out of tribe creature that doesn't die as long as you are familiar with how it works. The swords can be annoying when someone plays a sub par tribe and shores that up with "protection from your whole tribe" items. I am of mixed feeling on that too.
So I am abstaining from voting for now. (I may change that later given persuasive argument.)
I vote yes to unbanning swords of x/y. I also think Batterskull is completely innocuous in an environment with no SFM, it's just a nice one-of for control or big mana artifact decks.
Aggro vamps actually are among the worst performing decks in tribal wars history. When we used to track these things, Vampire Lacerator had the lowest win % of any popular card.
Once again, another informative article. Well done! I'm already thrilled about your preview articles ;), these are even more exiting than the spoilers themselves.
I vote for the unbanning of the Swords.
Thanks for your article. And in another reality, Hearthstone got released on iOS and Android, got it's first single-player expansion and is working rather well. Hex is garnering more players, and Stoneforge also released it's first expansion without breaking its everything. Yes, yes, yes, Magic is the better game and it's more complex and blahblahblah, but AT SOME POINT, someone, somewhere (possibly in summertime) at Hasbro or Wizards is going to realize that Shiny is already 10 years behind. What will happen then is anyone's guess (my bet is a blog entry by Worth telling us they are striving to make a world class product...).
I guess, the Swords poll will pass by majority. But, my thoughts about them for Tribal games is still same. So, No for the Swords...
No on the Swords. It's a creature based format, good equipment is disproportionately powerful. The swords themselves generate too many 'oops I win' game states. One event a month with them in is one too many.
Also, there was a Leech in Time Spiral.
Thanks - I've been sitting across from Artisan of Forms and watched it be terrible several times as well. Don't think it's a first pick, but sure worked in this deck.
Actually, Atlas has always been the bearer of heavens. To think he was holding a planet is a common misconception because he's typically represented with a big globe on his back, but that was meant to represent the celestial sphere back in ancient times.
Tough to get a seat in these things!
UPDATE
Pro-Kaleidoscope: romellos, Gq1rf7, mihahitlor, AJ_Impy, justcanceled, RexDart, Winter.Wolf, brettmemphis1989, smawatts, ChNidox, endless_nameless, BlippyTheSlug, Bazaar of Baghdad, SBena, Leys7
TOTAL: 15
Pro-Singleton: MisterMojoRising, Dawwy, ML_Berlin, Gonzzy, longtimegone, arcbounddaylabor, Robin88, Deonmag
TOTAL: 8
Abstained: Lord Erman
TOTAL: 1
TOTAL VOTES: 24 of 30
Last update: April 17, 21:00 GMT
Excellent! Quite the twist of fate for the Dredge deck, which at one time was regarded as having no bad matchups, and now it seems like everything is. In my limited experience, I have not had a lot of trouble against the Esper Control deck, but the Mono Black, and especially the B/W decks, have been very tough. When you side in the spot removal I feel like you kind of just have to get lucky and not have it all go into the bin. I'll still be playing the Dredge deck until the next set comes out, but I don't see too many easy matchups.
I didn't discuss it as directly, but I think there are several reasons M15 is highly unlikely
1. Under the assumption they want ONS duals added to Modern, it would take up 10 slots in the core set which is quite a lot.
2. Core sets are not printed or opened nearly as much as blocks, so the number added would be less.
3. The 3 months on fetch-shockland would likely be too much. Don't forgot that Deathrite Shaman is still legal in standard.
4. Paying life to use a land is something that new players - which is what a core set is supposed to be about - do no like. That was why the painlands stopped being used.
Those all add up to make it seem pretty unlikely. The only ways I see it happening is if either the ONS or the ZEN fetches are reprinted in M15 and then all 10 in Huey block.
Google Docs is having coniption fits, and won't allow me to properly scale the meta charts. If/when Google Docs clams down, scales will return to "normal", whatever that may be.
It's probably because I did propose the idea at the end of the K-scope event on March 22, but I didn't ask to vote until April 5.
By the way, the new article is going up tomorrow, on Friday.
I agree that there should be a democratically determined decision if you can't simply make one but it seemed like 30 was a high number to seek. 10 days from your proposal? How come I remember this discussion from last month? (Don't say "because you're insane, Paul" because while that could be true it isn't relevant here. :p
Meanwhile it seems you found a way to reach people so yay for that.
I almost find it had to believe that they *won't* be in standard within the next year. The only question for me is whether it's in M15 or Huey, on the model of core set duals set a few years ago I would have said M15 which also minimises any development/power level concerns other than one sweet three month period when standard has mana almost as good as modern. but the RTR method with shocklands also seems to have worked really well, so that seems probably more likely at the moment.
Ah, ok, that's reasonable. So it's essentially a best of 30. Objections withdrawn.
I forgot to mention (it seemed obvious) that as soon as one side hits 50%+1 of the quorum, that ends the voting. So with the recent influx of votes from the newsletter (people who don't read these articles and weren't in the room the last 2 weeks, but who do count in our community), we're 1 vote short for Kaleidoscope to ratify.
that's pretty reasonable - I just get a little turned off by relying on it too much, but your article was a pretty solid argument.
Good article. Unique insight on some cards that nobody is talking about. I'll add you on mtgo, Id love to playtest Standard with you.
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback, and thank you for reading!
Good Read. Very good advice as well.