No changeling, no off-tribe creatures. Banned cards, I still have to decide if there are any relevant (of course there's Grave Bramble, but that's part of the point of the event, since it's the card MaRo designed as a homage to the videogame Plants vs. Zombies).
Edited to add: after some thinking, it'll be no off-tribe creatures for Zombies, but the Plants will be allowed to have off-tribe green Elementals (mostly to allow for Avenger of Zendikar), Treefolk and Fungus (because they're their cousins).
FoW and duals don’t need to be in VMA. Duals are more important in Legacy than in Vintage. If they need more FoWs in the system they can use the MOCS. FoW was at $120 when they announced it as a MOCS promo, then it dropped to $90 and now it is at $73. That is a huge price impact and WotC has no problems reprinting promos. If you look at the price impact of MMA it was almost 0 for the mythic cards. So mythic in MMA did very little to the supply of these cards. FoW and duals will not be the bottleneck, it will be the P9. P9 are essential for every Vintage deck and as mythics in VMA they will be in very very limited supply and it will take a long time to fill the system with P9 using promos.
I don't think they will burn 10 rare slots on duals when they can get good numbers of them into the system through MED2-3-4 drafts AND they are MOCS promos. I think if they are going to burn 10 slots on lands (which I don't think they will), it will be much more likely they use it on saclands instead (since there isn't really a good way to get the ONS ones into the system since nobody will draft that set as a flashback).
The free tournaments were posted shortly after 2 PM PST. They were filled inside of 5 minutes.
As for Vintage Masters, I really think FoW and the duals are likely to be included. If you go over MMA rares that are useless or near useless you have at least 14 (others you didn't mention: Academy Ruins, Dragonstorm, Bridge from Below). It just seems like a situation ripe for turmoil if VMA is released and heralds the beginning of Vintage online only for there to be extreme prices and shortages of pillars of the format. As for FoW specifically, ME1x3 was just awful to draft. A 4 or 6 pack sealed with all 4 is still pretty awful and doesn't introduce enough FoW. It just seems like the best solution is putting FoW and duals in VMA.
You sir, just put a Starfish in a chariot and gave it a bow to shoot people. I will remember this every time I equip a non-humanoid creature with some sword or a piece of armor. I have been enlightened :p.
Easy. Put starfish in hood. put hood in boot. Put boot in chariot. Attach cleaver to chariot axle. Mount longbow on a pintel at the front of the chariot, gravity-feed arrows from the quiver as needed.
Lol AJ, that was easy because it's Standard! In Modern for example you have to imagine it wearing an Executioner's Hood and Trailblazer's Boots, while killing its enemies with an Ogre's Cleaver (that thing looks quite heavy for a starfish, no?). All those while it rides a Warmonger's Chariot of course.
Extra "imagination points" to you, if you can also imagine it riding that Warmonger's Chariot and taking arrows from its Wolfhunter's Quiver and shooting people with its Viridian Longbow.
Oh and people, we're talking about Sigiled Starfish here :p.
"Okay now someone please explain me how this one will be carrying an Accorder's Shield together with Civic Saber, while wearing a Haunted Plate Mail... I have a big imagination but this is even beyond me!"
It has five limbs, curling one around the shield handle and one around the saber is no problem. As for the haunted armour, it's haunted. It just poltergiests the starfish safely inside.
Also, I didn't see the Gideon easter egg until you pointed it out. This means all three monowhite planeswalkers are referenced in the same set for the first time.
Each player brings two decks, one plant deck, one zombie deck. (There are enough Plant Zombies to run the same deck for both if you like.)
The person who makes the table gets one tribe, their opponent gets the other. Knowing what tribe your opponent is running is a powerful weapon in the right hands, but so can knowing that your opponent knows. Versus weeks are fun events that only come around a couple of times a year, so make the most of them.
Yeah Peasant cube tends to be very creature centric, and sweeping is so limited, that most decks will usually have few guys on the board at most times. The only time Hour will be bad is if you are under a lot of pressure and you have had to chump block or trade a lot to stay alive.
Just to recap.
They are NOT banned in Regular events (anymore).
They were NEVER banned in Singleton.
They were NEVER payable in Kaleidoscope.
So what we're voting about here it's just Underdog and Pure. They're banned now in both, so the question is whether unban them or keep them banned IN THOSE TWO FORMATS.
I was considering the idea of leave them banned only in Pure (which is the format where cards are banned) but not in Underdog (which is the format where tribes are banned). If the voting will result in about a draw, I think I might do just that.
On the one hand, I think it benefits me to unban the swords. They're super slow, don't do anything until late in the game, and open you up to a massive tempo loss if your opponent has removal for your creature. So I really want to play against people with swords in their decks. I don't think they should be banned out of power level concerns. On the other hand, some people seem to hate them.
If you have to ban them, ban them in Pure events only. That's where you ban things. If you don't have Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, or Aether Vial banned in an event, you definitely shouldn't have the swords banned in that event either. Regular events are degenerate enough already, Underdog events are where you're limited by creatures only, and singleton's already a mess. So I think the best compromise would be to add them to the large list of cards banned in the Pure format and leave them alone everywhere else.
Well, BNG only had 1 pack so not having any cards make your deck isn't a surprise. The JOU cards are more playable anyway, so I could see the same happening in JBT Sealed.
Would love to see a UR or URW deck. I really enjoy the one that you wrote about toward the end of Triple Theros. If one is viable, I would likely switch to it.
Thanks for the comment as always. Good point re Ajani, junk dredge seems perfect. Turn your Wayfinders, Coursers and harpy tokens into huge threats. And comes down a turn earlier than Elspeth. Yeah, that seems perfect, and gives the deck another way to work if its graveyard is removed.
I'm way less convinced on Eidolon. It's too slow to be of use against aggro. Voice is kind of similar in that respect but that was only good because it came on turn 2 and also immediately impacted the board after blocking without you having to spend more mana. A turn 4 2/2 value-blocker is just irrelevant when you're under pressure. And I agree that it's theoretically great value against control, but I don't think it's better than Ephara and Ephara doesn't get played. You need to go way under or way over the top against the control decks in this format, not play 2/2s for 4 that draw you cards, hopefully. And it's not always a 2-for-1, annul and dissolve stop it from drawing you a card quite effectively.
Idk, I hope you're right because it would be nice to see something new shake things up, but I'll have to see it to believe it. I also note that I would have been MUCH higher on eidolon if there was even one enchantment land in the set.
The swords are multiplicative rather than additive: every creature that can carry a sword is potentially bigger, protected and with additional abilities. So, a power 1 deck * the power 5 swords nets you power 5 total. a power 5 deck * power 5 swords nets you power 25, to use your numbers.
Playing games with numbers, to me, is not particularly relevant to either side of this argument.
I'd be more convinced as to your arguments as to what investing in niche tribes cost if there was evidence of you having done so. I see humans, shamen, Kor, Rebels, spirits, and faeries from you this season. Can you back up your assertions on what it costs to invest in a niche tribe with evidence?
For example. I ran Volvers at the beginning of the month. The entire tribe, consisting of 20 Apocalypse rares? Under a ticket. In terms of tribal base, running that nets you a profit even if all you get is the underdog payout, which winning even one match for will usually be sufficient given the utter paucity of competition for it.
AJ: Think of it like this, if slugs are power level "1" and swords give the deck "+5", then the slug + sword deck is "6"
If Kor is power level "5" and swords give it +"5", then the kor + sword deck is "10" power deck.
So with the ban in place, there is power 1 vs power 5 deck, which is a 500% difference.
But with swords, the difference is only 166% (think 10/6)
so what I saying is sure, absolute level, kors + swords might be the strongest deck. But on a relative level, decks with swords are more even and the difference might even be minimal.
Regarding financial level, all you need is 1-2 swords, which cost around 6 tix*2 = 12 tix for a lifetime.
But think about if you make and bring a new tribe everytime, you have to invest probably 3 tix every week for each new tribe. So in the long run you have a bunch of these niche tribal members that doesn't even work for other formats like Commander, Modern, etc. I.e. I have a pile of junk that i can't use for other PREs or other casual formats.
I'm sure for the new players, it is important to buy robust cards that can be flexible and useful for a variety of formats.
I like Ajani's Presence because it can be used as a cheap answer to cheap removal, which my Pauper and Peasant cubes both have tons of. I like that flexibility. Swift Justice is great against more aggressive decks, which is also highly prevalent especially in Pauper, so it's really a matter of preference here.
You might be right about Sigiled Starfish. I find the 0/3 body underwhelming, but you get a free Scry each turn, and most 2-drops only have 2 power anyway so it could potentially do alright. I added it to the list for the next article and I'll test it out.
You make a good case for Hour of Need. I'll give it a shot as well. My main concern is that it's not good without sac'ing 2+ creatures, so it's a bit conditional, but having 2+ durdly creatures late game is pretty common. Plus it does look fun to play with!
The week has been pretty eventful. They will have to get involved with it. - Mission Maids
I will be down. Holler when it is time.
Tombstalker 6BB
You may exile any number of cards as you cast this. Concede the game if you cast the spell in this way.
No changeling, no off-tribe creatures. Banned cards, I still have to decide if there are any relevant (of course there's Grave Bramble, but that's part of the point of the event, since it's the card MaRo designed as a homage to the videogame Plants vs. Zombies).
Edited to add: after some thinking, it'll be no off-tribe creatures for Zombies, but the Plants will be allowed to have off-tribe green Elementals (mostly to allow for Avenger of Zendikar), Treefolk and Fungus (because they're their cousins).
*PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST*
Current tally:
YES, unban the Swords: mihahitlor, RexDart, Lord Erman, ML_Berlin, Robin88, endless_nameless, fliebana
TOTAL: 7
NO, keep the Swords banned: Ben Bentrup (Bazaar of Baghdad), Kenny Fromm Jr (CruelHellraiser?), Denis Bokach (Deonmag?), AJ_Impy, romellos, ScionOfJustice, ChNidox, justcanceled, brettmemphis1989, Edison_88luckyplayer, Gq1rf7
TOTAL: 11
Abstained: Winter.Wolf
TOTAL: 1
TOTAL VOTES: 19
FoW and duals don’t need to be in VMA. Duals are more important in Legacy than in Vintage. If they need more FoWs in the system they can use the MOCS. FoW was at $120 when they announced it as a MOCS promo, then it dropped to $90 and now it is at $73. That is a huge price impact and WotC has no problems reprinting promos. If you look at the price impact of MMA it was almost 0 for the mythic cards. So mythic in MMA did very little to the supply of these cards. FoW and duals will not be the bottleneck, it will be the P9. P9 are essential for every Vintage deck and as mythics in VMA they will be in very very limited supply and it will take a long time to fill the system with P9 using promos.
I don't think they will burn 10 rare slots on duals when they can get good numbers of them into the system through MED2-3-4 drafts AND they are MOCS promos. I think if they are going to burn 10 slots on lands (which I don't think they will), it will be much more likely they use it on saclands instead (since there isn't really a good way to get the ONS ones into the system since nobody will draft that set as a flashback).
The free tournaments were posted shortly after 2 PM PST. They were filled inside of 5 minutes.
As for Vintage Masters, I really think FoW and the duals are likely to be included. If you go over MMA rares that are useless or near useless you have at least 14 (others you didn't mention: Academy Ruins, Dragonstorm, Bridge from Below). It just seems like a situation ripe for turmoil if VMA is released and heralds the beginning of Vintage online only for there to be extreme prices and shortages of pillars of the format. As for FoW specifically, ME1x3 was just awful to draft. A 4 or 6 pack sealed with all 4 is still pretty awful and doesn't introduce enough FoW. It just seems like the best solution is putting FoW and duals in VMA.
You sir, just put a Starfish in a chariot and gave it a bow to shoot people. I will remember this every time I equip a non-humanoid creature with some sword or a piece of armor. I have been enlightened :p.
Easy. Put starfish in hood. put hood in boot. Put boot in chariot. Attach cleaver to chariot axle. Mount longbow on a pintel at the front of the chariot, gravity-feed arrows from the quiver as needed.
Lol AJ, that was easy because it's Standard! In Modern for example you have to imagine it wearing an Executioner's Hood and Trailblazer's Boots, while killing its enemies with an Ogre's Cleaver (that thing looks quite heavy for a starfish, no?). All those while it rides a Warmonger's Chariot of course.
Extra "imagination points" to you, if you can also imagine it riding that Warmonger's Chariot and taking arrows from its Wolfhunter's Quiver and shooting people with its Viridian Longbow.
Oh and people, we're talking about Sigiled Starfish here :p.
Are other creatures allowed in the Plants vs. Zombies decks? Are any cards banned? Do Changelings count?
"Okay now someone please explain me how this one will be carrying an Accorder's Shield together with Civic Saber, while wearing a Haunted Plate Mail... I have a big imagination but this is even beyond me!"
It has five limbs, curling one around the shield handle and one around the saber is no problem. As for the haunted armour, it's haunted. It just poltergiests the starfish safely inside.
Also, I didn't see the Gideon easter egg until you pointed it out. This means all three monowhite planeswalkers are referenced in the same set for the first time.
Each player brings two decks, one plant deck, one zombie deck. (There are enough Plant Zombies to run the same deck for both if you like.)
The person who makes the table gets one tribe, their opponent gets the other. Knowing what tribe your opponent is running is a powerful weapon in the right hands, but so can knowing that your opponent knows. Versus weeks are fun events that only come around a couple of times a year, so make the most of them.
It's sad that I got cleric's best creature banned by playing humans.
What's the Plants vs. Zombies format? Do I need two decks? How does that work?
Yeah Peasant cube tends to be very creature centric, and sweeping is so limited, that most decks will usually have few guys on the board at most times. The only time Hour will be bad is if you are under a lot of pressure and you have had to chump block or trade a lot to stay alive.
Just to recap.
They are NOT banned in Regular events (anymore).
They were NEVER banned in Singleton.
They were NEVER payable in Kaleidoscope.
So what we're voting about here it's just Underdog and Pure. They're banned now in both, so the question is whether unban them or keep them banned IN THOSE TWO FORMATS.
I was considering the idea of leave them banned only in Pure (which is the format where cards are banned) but not in Underdog (which is the format where tribes are banned). If the voting will result in about a draw, I think I might do just that.
On the one hand, I think it benefits me to unban the swords. They're super slow, don't do anything until late in the game, and open you up to a massive tempo loss if your opponent has removal for your creature. So I really want to play against people with swords in their decks. I don't think they should be banned out of power level concerns. On the other hand, some people seem to hate them.
If you have to ban them, ban them in Pure events only. That's where you ban things. If you don't have Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, or Aether Vial banned in an event, you definitely shouldn't have the swords banned in that event either. Regular events are degenerate enough already, Underdog events are where you're limited by creatures only, and singleton's already a mess. So I think the best compromise would be to add them to the large list of cards banned in the Pure format and leave them alone everywhere else.
Well, BNG only had 1 pack so not having any cards make your deck isn't a surprise. The JOU cards are more playable anyway, so I could see the same happening in JBT Sealed.
Would love to see a UR or URW deck. I really enjoy the one that you wrote about toward the end of Triple Theros. If one is viable, I would likely switch to it.
Thanks for the comment as always. Good point re Ajani, junk dredge seems perfect. Turn your Wayfinders, Coursers and harpy tokens into huge threats. And comes down a turn earlier than Elspeth. Yeah, that seems perfect, and gives the deck another way to work if its graveyard is removed.
I'm way less convinced on Eidolon. It's too slow to be of use against aggro. Voice is kind of similar in that respect but that was only good because it came on turn 2 and also immediately impacted the board after blocking without you having to spend more mana. A turn 4 2/2 value-blocker is just irrelevant when you're under pressure. And I agree that it's theoretically great value against control, but I don't think it's better than Ephara and Ephara doesn't get played. You need to go way under or way over the top against the control decks in this format, not play 2/2s for 4 that draw you cards, hopefully. And it's not always a 2-for-1, annul and dissolve stop it from drawing you a card quite effectively.
Idk, I hope you're right because it would be nice to see something new shake things up, but I'll have to see it to believe it. I also note that I would have been MUCH higher on eidolon if there was even one enchantment land in the set.
Keep them banned. Tribal is designed to be based on the creatures, the swords make it based on the equipment.
My vote: No, do not un-ban them.
The swords are multiplicative rather than additive: every creature that can carry a sword is potentially bigger, protected and with additional abilities. So, a power 1 deck * the power 5 swords nets you power 5 total. a power 5 deck * power 5 swords nets you power 25, to use your numbers.
Playing games with numbers, to me, is not particularly relevant to either side of this argument.
I'd be more convinced as to your arguments as to what investing in niche tribes cost if there was evidence of you having done so. I see humans, shamen, Kor, Rebels, spirits, and faeries from you this season. Can you back up your assertions on what it costs to invest in a niche tribe with evidence?
For example. I ran Volvers at the beginning of the month. The entire tribe, consisting of 20 Apocalypse rares? Under a ticket. In terms of tribal base, running that nets you a profit even if all you get is the underdog payout, which winning even one match for will usually be sufficient given the utter paucity of competition for it.
AJ: Think of it like this, if slugs are power level "1" and swords give the deck "+5", then the slug + sword deck is "6"
If Kor is power level "5" and swords give it +"5", then the kor + sword deck is "10" power deck.
So with the ban in place, there is power 1 vs power 5 deck, which is a 500% difference.
But with swords, the difference is only 166% (think 10/6)
so what I saying is sure, absolute level, kors + swords might be the strongest deck. But on a relative level, decks with swords are more even and the difference might even be minimal.
Regarding financial level, all you need is 1-2 swords, which cost around 6 tix*2 = 12 tix for a lifetime.
But think about if you make and bring a new tribe everytime, you have to invest probably 3 tix every week for each new tribe. So in the long run you have a bunch of these niche tribal members that doesn't even work for other formats like Commander, Modern, etc. I.e. I have a pile of junk that i can't use for other PREs or other casual formats.
I'm sure for the new players, it is important to buy robust cards that can be flexible and useful for a variety of formats.
I like Ajani's Presence because it can be used as a cheap answer to cheap removal, which my Pauper and Peasant cubes both have tons of. I like that flexibility. Swift Justice is great against more aggressive decks, which is also highly prevalent especially in Pauper, so it's really a matter of preference here.
You might be right about Sigiled Starfish. I find the 0/3 body underwhelming, but you get a free Scry each turn, and most 2-drops only have 2 power anyway so it could potentially do alright. I added it to the list for the next article and I'll test it out.
You make a good case for Hour of Need. I'll give it a shot as well. My main concern is that it's not good without sac'ing 2+ creatures, so it's a bit conditional, but having 2+ durdly creatures late game is pretty common. Plus it does look fun to play with!