I think we just disagree on the viability of Elves - I just think it is too fragile even with its potential explosiveness. Of course, I loathe combo decks, so I may be jaded (I will note that I have built and played the Elves deck quite a bit, and its potential for explosiveness is pretty much equal to its chances of beign a complete dud in any given game).
Now onto my comment of deck building vs. game playing. First, my comment is not a slight on anyone - I don't really do competitive play any more, but I have played a number of games at a competitive level in the past (GenCon, regional tournaments, etc.).
In a metagame that is clearly established and the majority of decks are known and the quantities of those decks likely to appear in a tournament (i.e., the Pauper PE), a player has two choices - go with the metagame or go rogue. Since most people go with the metagame, the decks are well known and already built (less challenge for deck building). However, the sameness of the games played make it more important that the game play decisions are perfect in order to win consistently.
In a metagame that fluctuats greater, building a deck that can compete a wider range of decks requires more projection of a decks weaknesses and establishing control measures in the deck itself. With the wider range of decks among your opponents, some of those games are just going to be unbalanced versions of Rock crushing Scissors.
My comment was based on the metagames of the PEs and PREs, not on what the events themselves are. If the metagame of the PEs opens up, I would shift my thoughts on the importance of deck building veruss game play.
It is a sliding scale for any given environment, but rarely is the importance of deck building and game play equal.
BTW, this argument did not originate with me. I have heard it from some pro players of MTG and other games (Versus, Legend of the Five Rings, etc.) and from some game designers/developers.
Slivers, Allies, Soldiers, Humans, and Rats are all viable. Each of these tribes has a successful Pauper deck that is easily adaptable for Tribal Pauper.
White Weenie, the deck with the best track record in Pauper since I have been monitoring the PE and PREs, can be twisted into humans, soldiers, or clerics. One reason why is that it typically runs 31 creatures, so the deck can choose the best options in tribe and still have space to run the best of the rest (Aven Riftwatcher, Kor Skyfisher, Shade of Trokair, Razor Golem, etc.).
The bigger question is how the lack of a sideboard will translate to tribal classic.
Faeries may be viable on a Mono-Blue Control shell. There is at least one version that I have seen that already runs 12 Faeries, splashing for white and Momentary Blink.
I like the idea of a badge system. There are lots of details that would need to be solved, but I think it would be good for the target audience: people that don't want/care/are good enough to get involved in tournament, but that would appreciate some kind of incentive or challenge.
Their primary objective shouldn't be as something to brag about but as something that tells a player that he was able to do task X or to achieve situation X.
Newbies would surely like getting a badge saying "You won 5 games".
People that like building weird decks would appreciate getting a badge saying "You were able to win with ".
People that like big creatures would love getting a badge with "You were able to win with a 10/10 creature".
Even tournament people would probably like a "You won 5 drafts" badge.
But I think there should be no prizes (avatars, cards, special animations on cards, etc) attached to this badges. The only prize should be the badge itself, so that the badge "value" would basically correspond to the effort the player made to get it.
This way, concerns about people playing against themselves/friends in order to get the achievement badges wouldn't matter much. A badge would be like a pat-in-the-back. If you deserve it, the pat-in-the-back-feeling is strong and you will probably keep on trying to get other badges. If you don't deserve it really (you "cheated"), the pat-in-the-back-feeling is weak and you will probably stop trying to get other badges.
Getting the leagues back should be a priority but a system of this kind would also be nice.
So some interesting evolutions have occurred within pauper as of late. My WW build started playing even with Teachings/Control! This was a surprise for me, as I usually had about a 60% advantage over the 'untargeted/rats' version of it. Brian E - a player as good as any, is an excellent pilot of any Black/Blue strategy. His recent creations..copied numerous times, focuses more on targeted removal and answers. Thus because of the popularity of Teachings/Control....My sideboard for the month of April is looking a bit like this:
not yet I normally post the upcoming week on the PRE forums on sundy-monday now. Though currently goblins and elves are not allowed. A decision on slivers is forthcoming.
Okay I knew Squee's was high and I haven't had access to Modo to check the Angel avatar. That would have been the nuts though.
Never ventured into Vanguard since I had access to my old MODO account, back when Momir was free and Momir Basic was the hottest vanguard format around. Only one I had except the base avatars...I miss that avatar. I never knew some of these Vanguard cards were so cheap...might actually grab one of them now. Ashling looks fun with the persist creatures.
Kylix is sometimes written as cylix, would some people might mis-pronounce as sylix, which is then just inches away from sylex. I could totally see Wizards thinking they had put the right name on that card.
You should see my old laptop keyboard. It got so bad I bought a new one for 20 bucks mailorder and figured out how to put it in. It promptly lost the Page Up key, but I pried that off the old one to stick on there.
I'm going to take the "R" key that came off it and give it to the Captain of the "Booty Pirates", a good friend of mine who I'm sure will appreciate it.
Glad you enjoyed the joke! I'll make a notch on my belt to indicate another keyboard shot down in flames. As soon as I get a belt.
if anyone's lookin to play test some pauper tribal decks I've got several I want to test as well so if I'm on an not already in a game i'm up for testing some pauper ones
I think you have Lion's Eye Diamond confused with Mox Diamond, unless of course I am missing something. I'm pretty sure the only LED we're getting is from Mirage sadly to say.
I used grave shell scarab to help provide inevitability and a little card draw in my old insect deck. That version was more controlling though. Geopede is scary. Fun article
I like the concept. Reminds me of the "badges" people pursue on Pogo.
Instead of, "Win 8 hands of Spider Solitaire this week" we could have challenges like, "Win 8 games of Prismatic Singleton this week."
Varied challenges encourages players to try different formats, which should generally be good for the game as a whole.
Who cares if some players play against buddies to complete the challenges? My wife played Scrabble against a bot on Pogo to earn a badge. It's about creating interest in formats other than the serious tournament formats. Yes, the serious tournament side of things is important for the game, but lower level goodies can help attract and retain players who are not drawn to the serious competitive level.
I think the success of some Player Run Events (PDC comes to mind) illustrates the appetite people have for affordable alternatives to the serious tournament scene. Yes, WOTC is here to make money, and that means we have to pay for things. Promoting the game at the grass roots level can lead to more players, and that can lead to more sales for WOTC.
Happy us, happy them,
Happy us, happy them.
The circle of gaming economics.
Thoughts:
1. Few casual deckbuilders start with a blank page, but instead work with a combo or mechanic or card interaction in mind. I think a lot of casual deckbuilders would relish being challenged by specific Achievement criteria.
2. If you don’t want to build an Unspeakable deck, then don’t. Nobody’s forcing you to do the achievements. Do the ones you want.
Interesting take on Allies. I am not sure if I want to actually play them but as a test deck you may be right that card drawing is more important. In which case the deck list definitely needs a redesign.
Nihilism ftw? I have to say I don't miss untimed games. People walking away from their keyboards without a word...That said, that requirement is silly. The card should not trigger that clause.
Im not an equipment maven but Warmonger's Chariot!!! check that out. Walls that attack out of nowhere. :/ (the 2 cost 3/3 red guy fits this criteria) Could make life in limited interesting. As in 'may you live in interesting times.'
Devastating Summons + Armageddon = wow. Not quite the same as Zuran Orb but far more devastating (as per the name). Could be key in eternal to keep those Eldrazi off the table.
RE: Mythics. I don't mind that as long as some mythics end up in the junk bin where they rightfully belong so I can pick them up cheaply.
IS Legacy catching on? I was kind of hoping not because all of those cards that have been rising are insanely overpriced according to my budget. I hope some day they won't be.
I have to say I didn't enjoy the Hellion deck at all. No sir...very quickly it messed me over. Didn't like that much. I do think it is a good idea, I did Phoenices last week but then decided they were a bit too weak for the PRE because while they sweep they don't do so as consistently as I want.
I kind of like playing Coalition. I just wish it had more battlemages.
I think we just disagree on the viability of Elves - I just think it is too fragile even with its potential explosiveness. Of course, I loathe combo decks, so I may be jaded (I will note that I have built and played the Elves deck quite a bit, and its potential for explosiveness is pretty much equal to its chances of beign a complete dud in any given game).
Now onto my comment of deck building vs. game playing. First, my comment is not a slight on anyone - I don't really do competitive play any more, but I have played a number of games at a competitive level in the past (GenCon, regional tournaments, etc.).
In a metagame that is clearly established and the majority of decks are known and the quantities of those decks likely to appear in a tournament (i.e., the Pauper PE), a player has two choices - go with the metagame or go rogue. Since most people go with the metagame, the decks are well known and already built (less challenge for deck building). However, the sameness of the games played make it more important that the game play decisions are perfect in order to win consistently.
In a metagame that fluctuats greater, building a deck that can compete a wider range of decks requires more projection of a decks weaknesses and establishing control measures in the deck itself. With the wider range of decks among your opponents, some of those games are just going to be unbalanced versions of Rock crushing Scissors.
My comment was based on the metagames of the PEs and PREs, not on what the events themselves are. If the metagame of the PEs opens up, I would shift my thoughts on the importance of deck building veruss game play.
It is a sliding scale for any given environment, but rarely is the importance of deck building and game play equal.
BTW, this argument did not originate with me. I have heard it from some pro players of MTG and other games (Versus, Legend of the Five Rings, etc.) and from some game designers/developers.
Slivers, Allies, Soldiers, Humans, and Rats are all viable. Each of these tribes has a successful Pauper deck that is easily adaptable for Tribal Pauper.
White Weenie, the deck with the best track record in Pauper since I have been monitoring the PE and PREs, can be twisted into humans, soldiers, or clerics. One reason why is that it typically runs 31 creatures, so the deck can choose the best options in tribe and still have space to run the best of the rest (Aven Riftwatcher, Kor Skyfisher, Shade of Trokair, Razor Golem, etc.).
The bigger question is how the lack of a sideboard will translate to tribal classic.
Faeries may be viable on a Mono-Blue Control shell. There is at least one version that I have seen that already runs 12 Faeries, splashing for white and Momentary Blink.
Good stuff. I am looking forward to the event.
I like the idea of a badge system. There are lots of details that would need to be solved, but I think it would be good for the target audience: people that don't want/care/are good enough to get involved in tournament, but that would appreciate some kind of incentive or challenge.
Their primary objective shouldn't be as something to brag about but as something that tells a player that he was able to do task X or to achieve situation X.
Newbies would surely like getting a badge saying "You won 5 games".
People that like building weird decks would appreciate getting a badge saying "You were able to win with ".
People that like big creatures would love getting a badge with "You were able to win with a 10/10 creature".
Even tournament people would probably like a "You won 5 drafts" badge.
But I think there should be no prizes (avatars, cards, special animations on cards, etc) attached to this badges. The only prize should be the badge itself, so that the badge "value" would basically correspond to the effort the player made to get it.
This way, concerns about people playing against themselves/friends in order to get the achievement badges wouldn't matter much. A badge would be like a pat-in-the-back. If you deserve it, the pat-in-the-back-feeling is strong and you will probably keep on trying to get other badges. If you don't deserve it really (you "cheated"), the pat-in-the-back-feeling is weak and you will probably stop trying to get other badges.
Getting the leagues back should be a priority but a system of this kind would also be nice.
So some interesting evolutions have occurred within pauper as of late. My WW build started playing even with Teachings/Control! This was a surprise for me, as I usually had about a 60% advantage over the 'untargeted/rats' version of it. Brian E - a player as good as any, is an excellent pilot of any Black/Blue strategy. His recent creations..copied numerous times, focuses more on targeted removal and answers. Thus because of the popularity of Teachings/Control....My sideboard for the month of April is looking a bit like this:
3 Benevolent Unicorn
3 Prismatic Strands
3 Holy Light
3 Obsidian Acolyte
3 Kor Sanctifiers
Be sure to check back every few weeks/months, as this is where I post my WW tech, unless a ton more is avail, then that will warrant an article again.
Pretty fun read with that soundtrack, 80's nostalgia :)
not yet I normally post the upcoming week on the PRE forums on sundy-monday now. Though currently goblins and elves are not allowed. A decision on slivers is forthcoming.
Okay I knew Squee's was high and I haven't had access to Modo to check the Angel avatar. That would have been the nuts though.
Never ventured into Vanguard since I had access to my old MODO account, back when Momir was free and Momir Basic was the hottest vanguard format around. Only one I had except the base avatars...I miss that avatar. I never knew some of these Vanguard cards were so cheap...might actually grab one of them now. Ashling looks fun with the persist creatures.
Interesting, a tribal pauper tourney....is there a link for the official in's/out's? I may be interested!
I think you maybe refering to this:
http://jamuraa.com/pure/deck_new.php
The pictures/decklist were all done via photoshop and a few glasses of wine :)
Kylix is sometimes written as cylix, would some people might mis-pronounce as sylix, which is then just inches away from sylex. I could totally see Wizards thinking they had put the right name on that card.
You should see my old laptop keyboard. It got so bad I bought a new one for 20 bucks mailorder and figured out how to put it in. It promptly lost the Page Up key, but I pried that off the old one to stick on there.
I'm going to take the "R" key that came off it and give it to the Captain of the "Booty Pirates", a good friend of mine who I'm sure will appreciate it.
Glad you enjoyed the joke! I'll make a notch on my belt to indicate another keyboard shot down in flames. As soon as I get a belt.
if anyone's lookin to play test some pauper tribal decks I've got several I want to test as well so if I'm on an not already in a game i'm up for testing some pauper ones
I think you have Lion's Eye Diamond confused with Mox Diamond, unless of course I am missing something. I'm pretty sure the only LED we're getting is from Mirage sadly to say.
I used grave shell scarab to help provide inevitability and a little card draw in my old insect deck. That version was more controlling though. Geopede is scary. Fun article
The sphinges (seriously?) look like a ton of fun. And I'm going to have to try the angels. Good article.
Sure don't want people playing with themselves....
I like the concept. Reminds me of the "badges" people pursue on Pogo.
Instead of, "Win 8 hands of Spider Solitaire this week" we could have challenges like, "Win 8 games of Prismatic Singleton this week."
Varied challenges encourages players to try different formats, which should generally be good for the game as a whole.
Who cares if some players play against buddies to complete the challenges? My wife played Scrabble against a bot on Pogo to earn a badge. It's about creating interest in formats other than the serious tournament formats. Yes, the serious tournament side of things is important for the game, but lower level goodies can help attract and retain players who are not drawn to the serious competitive level.
I think the success of some Player Run Events (PDC comes to mind) illustrates the appetite people have for affordable alternatives to the serious tournament scene. Yes, WOTC is here to make money, and that means we have to pay for things. Promoting the game at the grass roots level can lead to more players, and that can lead to more sales for WOTC.
Happy us, happy them,
Happy us, happy them.
The circle of gaming economics.
The pauper ally deck that I stole is BUw and is really fun to play, in fact its so fun I haven't tested any of my other pauper builds.
actually this article has made think about building an Unspeakable deck anyways. Now the only question is do I build it U/R or something else?
Thoughts:
1. Few casual deckbuilders start with a blank page, but instead work with a combo or mechanic or card interaction in mind. I think a lot of casual deckbuilders would relish being challenged by specific Achievement criteria.
2. If you don’t want to build an Unspeakable deck, then don’t. Nobody’s forcing you to do the achievements. Do the ones you want.
Ha, actually a card image typo. The real avatar has (I think, without checking) a +1 handsize. No avatar has more than +3 (Squee).
Those are definently two decks I don't want to play against. The pictures were very cool. Also how do you make the decklist like that again?
Interesting take on Allies. I am not sure if I want to actually play them but as a test deck you may be right that card drawing is more important. In which case the deck list definitely needs a redesign.
Nihilism ftw? I have to say I don't miss untimed games. People walking away from their keyboards without a word...That said, that requirement is silly. The card should not trigger that clause.
Im not an equipment maven but Warmonger's Chariot!!! check that out. Walls that attack out of nowhere. :/ (the 2 cost 3/3 red guy fits this criteria) Could make life in limited interesting. As in 'may you live in interesting times.'
Devastating Summons + Armageddon = wow. Not quite the same as Zuran Orb but far more devastating (as per the name). Could be key in eternal to keep those Eldrazi off the table.
RE: Mythics. I don't mind that as long as some mythics end up in the junk bin where they rightfully belong so I can pick them up cheaply.
IS Legacy catching on? I was kind of hoping not because all of those cards that have been rising are insanely overpriced according to my budget. I hope some day they won't be.
I have to say I didn't enjoy the Hellion deck at all. No sir...very quickly it messed me over. Didn't like that much. I do think it is a good idea, I did Phoenices last week but then decided they were a bit too weak for the PRE because while they sweep they don't do so as consistently as I want.
I kind of like playing Coalition. I just wish it had more battlemages.
Fun cast guys as per usual.