You're always mentioning that, on average, the pack payout is worse for 4-3-2-2 than for the other two. That got me wondering how the pack win rates differ by skill level, so I whipped up a spreadsheet.
No matter the skill level, there's a format that has a higher payout rate than 4-3-2-2, though it does become better than swiss if you're some kind of god who wins over 62% of his matches. If you're going to win over half your matches, 8-4 has a (much!) higher payout than swiss, and vice-versa.
That doesn't account for the difference in skill between players playing 8-4 and Swiss, but it does give a general idea of why 4-3-2-2 shouldn't really be played by anyone.
This just like so many other topics people always focus in on one part of the problem and it's usually the wrong part. In this case the eldrazi themselves while yes they're abusive are typically not AS evil and nasty unless cheated into play early.
On their own the eldrazi are too slow to be a real threat so any well built deck.
Also i always hafta giggle every time i see someone compare anything to standard pre-ban affinity guys get a grip and realize that pre=ban affinty was strong enough as a standard legal deck to actually compete in ext and legacy!! No.... stop really.... quit trying to think about it... NOTHING will ever compare to that!
Two Isperia lists and zero mention of Karmic Guide? That can't be good.
Another good one that didn't get mentioned was Glen Elendra Archmage.
I would probably cut Hoofprints of the Stag and Luminarch Ascension to make room. The Ascension in particular will draw a lot of hate from other people, and you said that your deck needs time to get setup.
Keep it up, Thursday is the highlight of this site :)
Agree with everything you said on swiss. I find it especially good when I'm getting to grips with a format, so I can make sure I get the most play possible out of my deck and learn common interactions and tricks in the format. Very curious to give the Fiend deck a spin.
Really liked the final section you added on important cards in the deck! Could you do that for other RoE archetypes as well? Maybe incorporate it in next week's walkthrough with a different deck type?
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
That's all i hear.
Reanimator is *so* much less expensive in paper too :rolleyes:
You shouldn't have gone into RW as you don't often see it work, because there aren't that many synergies in the two colours (except for walls, but that's bad either way). You really don't see the pros drafting it either, that's one thing we should take into account. And even if you were planing on RW Kiln Fiend, that's just loose, because Distortion Strike is better for this deck than any other spell in the format. Also spells that dig through your deck (for more Fiends) should be picked higher than usual.
Generally settling into an archetype as soon as possible is the best you can do in this format, you failed to do that with the first pack. You also made some iffy picks, like Makindi Griffin over Instincts and Knight of Cliffhaven over Heat Ray.
And I absolutely agree that Kilnfiend.dec falls apart when they handle your Fiends, but it's not as bas as you make it sound. Then you just play for the Bores, which you had 2-of in the deck. It also helps to have a bomb like Sphinx of Magosi or Conquering Manticore, just makes things easier :P
Now that I have this info (I'm too stupid to do basic math and also lack the ability to detect which number is the larger by myself), I can finally build my awesome Zodiac Dragon, Juzam Djinn, Force Field deck! Who needs Goyf and FoW when you can play with that kind of power.
The PE was crazy, I lost 1 game in my first 7 rounds and got a nutty turn 3 kill vs Storm in the top 8.
But then I ran into the eventual winner Dolmir and didn't have much vs him either game (although one game I think I was ok except I didn't anticipate bounce since certain mono-u players (ahem Dr Anime!) advice against using it.
Anyway, sorry this article is basically slapped together, I messed up and submitted it unintentionally and then kind of forgot about it. This was the first one I've every made for PureMTGO. I was going to try and figure out all of the fancy features the other writers use, but it was sort of a time sensitive article since it revolved around a tournament report and like I said, I forgot and assumed the editor would just reject it.
And sorry about the "humor" at the beginning, it wasn't really meant for public consumption as I considered this just a very rough first draft.
TheBizzar, I own 4x Careful Study's so don't allow me the budget excuse (If I can afford a set of Seas, c'mon, surely I can afford a set of Study). Zero Studies and 4 Researchers may well be incorrect. Would you care to explain the logic of your preferred Reanimator list - I'd appreciate any tips.
I have been working on a Thopter deck as well, but I'm playing full Esper colours. Not only do I prefer some of the black removal from the respective blocks, but despite loving Ancestral Vision in some decks, I for one aren't too keen on it here. With a single tutorable Assassin's Capsule and the addition of Academy Ruins you also get a nice little recursion engine, and both cards are decent in the deck anyway.
In game 2, the turn you played Kozilek's predator, you could have instead played growth spasm, setting up the next turn where you could drop the predator and bushwhacker in the same turn. It seems like that would be a much better play, setting up more surprise damage.
H conceded after I attacked him with Pathrazer, which isn't uncommon when hit with an Eldrazi that early in the game. I didn't want to attack Intet because I wanted to keep the Eldrazi as long as possible.
I don't disagree. I also love free stuff, however I would rather know that they are working and nearing completion on the next client version over what is going to happen with my lifetime points.
Yeah I don't think adding another color is the way to go; nor is Soul Warden a particular good way to abuse the numerous tokens. Violent Outburst does work pretty well; I've seen it in similar builds, and might be a good addition. I actually don't think Brood Birthing is all that great.
Like any deck I suppose, it's draw-dependent. You have to be quite aggressive. Burn away any opposing creatures, swing in with your creatures each turn, and look for an opportunity to Alpha Strike with the Goblin Bushwhacker. Mysteries does a great job of refilling your hand and giving you enough resources to finish your opponent off before he/she is able to stabilize.
I don't care what it is, if it's free, I want it. My wife is always complaining about me bringing home stuff we don't need or use. Someone once gave me a huge box full of pens from a gynocological clinic that went out of business. I still have some laying around.
I actually didn't think about that particular combo, but good to know it's out there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make it any faster than turn 3 in Standard Pauper.
I built the deck, played the deck, and here is what I thought. It's missing something.
With the original build, I often found myself making guys and not being able to do anything because I never drew the Raid Bombardment or the Ulamog's Crusher in time. My opponant would establish his board and then take over.
I tried to take the deck into a different direction by adding Soul Wardens. The object was to build a buffer and then go for an all out slaughter. That didn't quite work out so well either.
My current version of the deck has me removing the Ulamog's Crusher and Growth Spasm and changing them out for 3 Violent Outburst and 3 Brood Birthing. This makes the deck more of an agro deck which I like better. I am even contemplating whether or not i want to take out the Mysteries of the Deep and add something like Sigil Blessing or Might of Masses.
Hi... you say Hand of Emrakul can come in as early as turn 3... it can actually come in on turn 2:
Turn 1: Island, Mothdust Changeling
Turn 2: Mountain, Brood Birthing, sac Mothdust Changeling and all Eldrazi Spawn tokens to play Hand
No mana accelerators or crazy multiple Lotus Petal hands required.
You're always mentioning that, on average, the pack payout is worse for 4-3-2-2 than for the other two. That got me wondering how the pack win rates differ by skill level, so I whipped up a spreadsheet.
No matter the skill level, there's a format that has a higher payout rate than 4-3-2-2, though it does become better than swiss if you're some kind of god who wins over 62% of his matches. If you're going to win over half your matches, 8-4 has a (much!) higher payout than swiss, and vice-versa.
That doesn't account for the difference in skill between players playing 8-4 and Swiss, but it does give a general idea of why 4-3-2-2 shouldn't really be played by anyone.
This just like so many other topics people always focus in on one part of the problem and it's usually the wrong part. In this case the eldrazi themselves while yes they're abusive are typically not AS evil and nasty unless cheated into play early.
On their own the eldrazi are too slow to be a real threat so any well built deck.
Also i always hafta giggle every time i see someone compare anything to standard pre-ban affinity guys get a grip and realize that pre=ban affinty was strong enough as a standard legal deck to actually compete in ext and legacy!! No.... stop really.... quit trying to think about it... NOTHING will ever compare to that!
Two Isperia lists and zero mention of Karmic Guide? That can't be good.
Another good one that didn't get mentioned was Glen Elendra Archmage.
I would probably cut Hoofprints of the Stag and Luminarch Ascension to make room. The Ascension in particular will draw a lot of hate from other people, and you said that your deck needs time to get setup.
Keep it up, Thursday is the highlight of this site :)
Agree with everything you said on swiss. I find it especially good when I'm getting to grips with a format, so I can make sure I get the most play possible out of my deck and learn common interactions and tricks in the format. Very curious to give the Fiend deck a spin.
Really liked the final section you added on important cards in the deck! Could you do that for other RoE archetypes as well? Maybe incorporate it in next week's walkthrough with a different deck type?
Cheers
Maybe I should run 4x Bazaar of Bag - wait - nobody runs that.
Well then 4x Mana Drain... no sorry - Mana Drain decks aren't played anywhere in paper.
Perhaps you might want to use Tabernacle of Pendr... nah.... that would be a stupid deck.
Well I could maybe just slip a Loyal Retainers in to my Surv... nah - no one will do that..
See how fun it is when you pick and choose cards to make your point. I can do it too...
Bottom line - Force of Will decks online are more expensive. Non-FOW decks aren't.
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
ZOMG! I can't play Legacy online because FOW is so expensive!
That's all i hear.
Reanimator is *so* much less expensive in paper too :rolleyes:
You shouldn't have gone into RW as you don't often see it work, because there aren't that many synergies in the two colours (except for walls, but that's bad either way). You really don't see the pros drafting it either, that's one thing we should take into account. And even if you were planing on RW Kiln Fiend, that's just loose, because Distortion Strike is better for this deck than any other spell in the format. Also spells that dig through your deck (for more Fiends) should be picked higher than usual.
Generally settling into an archetype as soon as possible is the best you can do in this format, you failed to do that with the first pack. You also made some iffy picks, like Makindi Griffin over Instincts and Knight of Cliffhaven over Heat Ray.
And I absolutely agree that Kilnfiend.dec falls apart when they handle your Fiends, but it's not as bas as you make it sound. Then you just play for the Bores, which you had 2-of in the deck. It also helps to have a bomb like Sphinx of Magosi or Conquering Manticore, just makes things easier :P
Now that I have this info (I'm too stupid to do basic math and also lack the ability to detect which number is the larger by myself), I can finally build my awesome Zodiac Dragon, Juzam Djinn, Force Field deck! Who needs Goyf and FoW when you can play with that kind of power.
Bad memory and bad math on my part
The PE was crazy, I lost 1 game in my first 7 rounds and got a nutty turn 3 kill vs Storm in the top 8.
But then I ran into the eventual winner Dolmir and didn't have much vs him either game (although one game I think I was ok except I didn't anticipate bounce since certain mono-u players (ahem Dr Anime!) advice against using it.
Anyway, sorry this article is basically slapped together, I messed up and submitted it unintentionally and then kind of forgot about it. This was the first one I've every made for PureMTGO. I was going to try and figure out all of the fancy features the other writers use, but it was sort of a time sensitive article since it revolved around a tournament report and like I said, I forgot and assumed the editor would just reject it.
And sorry about the "humor" at the beginning, it wasn't really meant for public consumption as I considered this just a very rough first draft.
TheBizzar, I own 4x Careful Study's so don't allow me the budget excuse (If I can afford a set of Seas, c'mon, surely I can afford a set of Study). Zero Studies and 4 Researchers may well be incorrect. Would you care to explain the logic of your preferred Reanimator list - I'd appreciate any tips.
5/5 as usual.
I have been working on a Thopter deck as well, but I'm playing full Esper colours. Not only do I prefer some of the black removal from the respective blocks, but despite loving Ancestral Vision in some decks, I for one aren't too keen on it here. With a single tutorable Assassin's Capsule and the addition of Academy Ruins you also get a nice little recursion engine, and both cards are decent in the deck anyway.
Keep up the good work, LE.
In game 2, the turn you played Kozilek's predator, you could have instead played growth spasm, setting up the next turn where you could drop the predator and bushwhacker in the same turn. It seems like that would be a much better play, setting up more surprise damage.
Adding Prince of Thralls is the icing on the cake. I hope you turned him into a Frog at least once.
H conceded after I attacked him with Pathrazer, which isn't uncommon when hit with an Eldrazi that early in the game. I didn't want to attack Intet because I wanted to keep the Eldrazi as long as possible.
I know. Isn't it awesome! Ravage 2099, so bad, lol.
The only way that picture of superman could represent the nineties more is if he was beating up Ravage 2099.
:D
Wait what happened to H? Or did he drop after the cataclysm?
I don't disagree. I also love free stuff, however I would rather know that they are working and nearing completion on the next client version over what is going to happen with my lifetime points.
Yeah I don't think adding another color is the way to go; nor is Soul Warden a particular good way to abuse the numerous tokens. Violent Outburst does work pretty well; I've seen it in similar builds, and might be a good addition. I actually don't think Brood Birthing is all that great.
Like any deck I suppose, it's draw-dependent. You have to be quite aggressive. Burn away any opposing creatures, swing in with your creatures each turn, and look for an opportunity to Alpha Strike with the Goblin Bushwhacker. Mysteries does a great job of refilling your hand and giving you enough resources to finish your opponent off before he/she is able to stabilize.
I don't care what it is, if it's free, I want it. My wife is always complaining about me bringing home stuff we don't need or use. Someone once gave me a huge box full of pens from a gynocological clinic that went out of business. I still have some laying around.
I actually didn't think about that particular combo, but good to know it's out there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make it any faster than turn 3 in Standard Pauper.
I built the deck, played the deck, and here is what I thought. It's missing something.
With the original build, I often found myself making guys and not being able to do anything because I never drew the Raid Bombardment or the Ulamog's Crusher in time. My opponant would establish his board and then take over.
I tried to take the deck into a different direction by adding Soul Wardens. The object was to build a buffer and then go for an all out slaughter. That didn't quite work out so well either.
My current version of the deck has me removing the Ulamog's Crusher and Growth Spasm and changing them out for 3 Violent Outburst and 3 Brood Birthing. This makes the deck more of an agro deck which I like better. I am even contemplating whether or not i want to take out the Mysteries of the Deep and add something like Sigil Blessing or Might of Masses.
Hi... you say Hand of Emrakul can come in as early as turn 3... it can actually come in on turn 2:
Turn 1: Island, Mothdust Changeling
Turn 2: Mountain, Brood Birthing, sac Mothdust Changeling and all Eldrazi Spawn tokens to play Hand
No mana accelerators or crazy multiple Lotus Petal hands required.
i wish i had anchormans points, that cat is wacked out on mtgo. alas i think i have 1% of his points.
and for the record EVERYONE likes free stuff