Gonna have to disagree on this one. Mindslaver is one of my all time favorite cards, as it leaves a lot of room for good players to maximize or minimize it's impact.
Playing around a mindslaver can lead to players making decisions they might not normally make (using removal early, not dropping all their lands, etc.) to avoid it being a blowout. The fact that it costs a total of 10 is also in line with the effect's power. Something that costs 10 mana SHOULD basically win you the game. Also, the fact that it is an artifact is really irrelevant, because we all know mindslaver is blue.
I really like this series. After you finish the angels are you thinking of another iconic creature type? Dragons might all be too similar but I'm sure there is something else out there.
extended has become more varied a format than i expected. I am pretty unimpressed by most of these decks though. The white weenie deck is just horrible, its a total metagame deck, and if you are at all prepared its very easy to beat. The summoners trap deck looks fun though, some interesting choices in it-no removal, 4 nest invader.
I agree 100%. Mindslaver is among my top 5 least fun cards. Its right there with mind twist/armageddon/hymn to tourach/counterbalance. It is a card I would NEVER EVER play unless I was in a tournament.
It's actually 6 mana. The spellbomb costs 1 to cast, 1 to activate and (C) to draw a card off of it dying.
Chimeric Mass is the strongest card to tutor up with the mage, very excited for Trinket Mage in constructed, but will also run spellbombs for sure.
I a play tournament magic, my reference to the Kitchen table players is made to illustrate a major market not influenced by mythics, magic players tend to speak on mythics as if it hits everyone, when clearly it does not. I don't have any numbers but I suspect it is very likely that more packs are sold to casual players then to tourny players.
Your argument about DVD's, movies, beer, and video games is not an accurate comparison, because the cost of a pack of cards has not gone up. This to me is not about sides, it is simply a business being a business, and since business is about making money where it can exploit a need in the market, it's hard for me to rally against it.
Considering the way it was done and the portion of players affected I think it was actually pretty risky by wizards to pin its hopes on mythics to sell packs, if that is infact true. I also do not blame wizards for the cost of cards on the secondary market, I know who is to blame for that, the unfortunate answer is me, you, and anyone else who plays at the competitive level. Star City Games also has a cross to bare in this, I think as a major retailer of secondary market cards most places fall in line with however they price cards. Think back to the first mythics Like Elspeth and Ajani, Star City priced them like other good cards and then found out through sales date that they could price cards like that much higher, why was Elspeth never 50 dollars presale? Gideon was and he is worse card in the same color. So why? Baneslayer is the short answer, Star City learned that the market would respond to a $50 mythic, but baneslayer was the perfect storm, an angel for casual players, powerful in a good color for competitive levels. The market got use to its high cost and when star city and other retailers placed jace at $50 it sold out. This is very much like the cost of gas per gallon, we all complain its 3 dollars, then 4, then 5 and after coming down to 4 and 3 we just stop yelling about it though 3 is pretty high, its a 200% increase from when I began driving in 1996.
Hopefully this better illuminates my stance, again as I said before I am not a fan of the cost but I know I am partially to blame, I have paid that cost for cards I could have just as easily said no to.
first my post was actually before both of those above me I thought my post added a post of view that wasn't discussed and brought up some points about FNM and sealed product, a major way to play FNM and to clarify our FNM takes place in draft format. I am Not sure how those other posts ended up above mine double checks time stamp???. Secondly I said I'd like to bury "lets Bury It" I never told anyone to shut up, I think maybe you are reading what you want to see not what I said.
Unless the movie you saw was Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Then you have no right to complain about, well, anything. Hell, you should have paid double. /fanboy
Also I agree. The competitive environment is what it is, and seeing it on paper often makes me happy I play online. $5 fetches vs $15 fetches? Yes please! As for kitchen table Magic, as an above poster said it hasn't really changed. I play a $15 Dredge deck every week with my friends. It's casual and fun and I don't need to shell out for Mythics.
I meant that Mox Opal was the third in the series of "nostalgia mythics", not "utility mythics". I actually tried hard not to define how many utility mythics we've seen so far because people disagree about them so much.
Well its a personal choice. If you choose to be competitive then you accept all that comes with it. Good and bad. It's obvious right now playing competitively is expensive. To know this, decide to play competitively, and still complain is crap. It's like deciding to buy a Jaguar then complaining when the maintainence required is more expensive than your friends Kia. You chose to play Magic in the expensive environment. After making that choice you really have no right to complain about prices. Same thing with your movie example. If you choose to go watch it in theaters then you shouldnt whine about paying 20-30 dollars for two tickets and drinks. Cheaper options were/are available.
While you do hold forth in an intelligent and respectful manner, your reasoning is flawed or at least somewhat dishonest. If one follows through with your arguments, it basically means WotC can print anything they damn well please at mythic. Take for instance the Baneslayer example. It's mythic because it's uniquely powerful. That means this card is fine too: Lotus Goyf - 6/6 trample - 1G. If that's your opinion, I'm fine with that, but it's very veiled in this article.
Also (not directed at the author), if you're just a kitchen table player who aren't affected by mythics, why even get involved in the discussion? Many tournament players are hobbled by the inflated prices of these cards, of course they're pissed, they should be. WotC are squeesing these players' wallets hard. I honestely can't see how you can be on the company's side and against your fellow gamers. Of course they're allowed to make money, but when a company takes a shit on their consumers like that, you don't thank them and rise to their defense when other consumers complain. What if game developers decided that games for your shiny PS3 will be twice as expensive from now own? Or the breweries that beer should be three times as expensive? An even more apt example would be a community of movie lovers. One half go the movie theater, one half watch DVDs in their homes. Suddenly the theater decides to take an extra 40% in admission fee. The mythic apologists are basically the DVD crowd going: "Sucks to be you lol. You can just watch on DVD like me. (But really go to the theater and spend lots of money so the studioes will make more movies for us to enjoy XD.)". I don't understand that stance and I never will.
Mindslaver is among the least fun cards I've ever experienced. It's even worse than Mind Twist, and I played with and against that one plenty back when you could play four of them. To each his own, I suppose.
And if the new set of spellbombs are any good Trinket Mage will be that much better. For 5 mana you'll get a 2/2, some small utility effect, and a card. Sadly, as a Pauper and casual player I'm looking forward to the spellbombs being spoiled most of all.
Trinket Mage is certainly going to be huge. The fact that it can fetch Opal Mox, Basilisk Collar, and Brittle Effigy means that it pretty much trumps Stoneforge Mystic.
I would expect to a lot of players trying out Red and Blue decks after Scars for Trinket Mage/Cunning Sparkmage and Jace.
It also has the effect of making FNM level events actually have non-netdecks appearing. I can show up at FNM with my random W/B concoction and am likely to play at least 2-3 rounds against other peoples random concoctions, just because they can't afford the ridiculous tournament decks. I don't really know whether this is a good thing for magic in general, but I quite enjoy it.
I hardly own any mythics to be honest. I have a set of grave titans that I bought on pre-order for cheap, and some chandras and sorins, but I wouldn't even consider some of the prices I see cards at now. It's a shame, because Abyssal persecutor and venser both really appeal to me.
Remember that we're going to get another two sets of scars block. It's going to see play in something sooner or later. I imagine it'll show up in legacy affinity, if scars boosts that deck back to playable as well.
Also, we know trinket mage is back, so I guess it might show up as a 1-of in various lists that way.
I'm not sure I'm keen on the logic that we can have it as a utility mythic as long as it has a flavour-evoking name. I mean, what's to stop them printing dual-lands under the name "baron sengirs mountain retreat" or something? Obviously, this seems far-fetched but it's the same logic.
You are more than welcome to not participate. But it seems to me that telling people to shut up is just asking for an explosion. In fact it is probably unintentional on your part but what you ended with could be taken as provocation for further discussion not less. If you truly wish the whole thing tabled, stay out of it. :p Also note that much of what you said about prices and tourney players was echoed by other posts above, so it wasn't critical to add anything more.
"Personally I've disliked mythics since their release. Some of the best staples in the game are getting printed at mythic and that's just making magic unaffordable to a lot of players"
I dont fully agree with that, or to be more accurate, I would say that it is one point of view but there are also others to consider. In fact, in my opinion (I didnt have done a real empirical survey, so consider that as feelings only), Mythic rarity increased the tournament decks average price for sure (a lot). But simultaneously, it seems also that the rare cards average price decreased. So in a way, you could also consider that mtg players could get an easier access to theses cards (rare) than it was before. It seems that it enlarged the hole between competitive and casual : it doesnt necessarly mean that it is making "mtg less affodable", but it mostly makes "competitive mtg less affordable". Is that better or worse than before ? What is the impact on mtg player recruitment ? an easier access to casual and harder access to competitive is it healthly regarding the number of player ? I dont know at the moment, but theses details should take part in the reasonning imho.
I liked the article, it was a well balanced look at the subject.
Mythics have not made magic too expensive to play. I am sure many of you disagree with me already, but hear me out. Mythic rarity has increased the cost to play tournament magic. If you are a kitchen table player and not a tourny player then the cost of magic hasn't changed. A draft is still 10-15 dollars, the cost of starters haven't varied much, and boosters are still 3.99 in the US. This may seem like splitting hairs but it is really a very important distinction to make. This is not an argument for mythic rarity, more of a clarification because I hear complaints about it pretty often at my shop. I feel like Wizards knew what they were doing when they announced mythics, and they knew who would bare the greatest coast of this new rarity, the tourny players, tournament players know you have to pay to play, kitchen table players mostly wouldn't pay for a $300 competitive deck, so the mythics bumping that cost up to $500 doesn't really matter. I don't love mythics, I surely don't love shelling out tons of cash for play-sets, but whats done is done and lets bury this conversations it's nearly 2 years-old
Momir is a great version of magic on the rare occasion you can find an opponent to play. I do find that it seems to have a lot of quitters, as soon as you hit something nutty, but that's more a critique of the casual room than the format itself.
We know the market will bear just about anything given the nature of spikes and tourney play. Spikes drive the market with their must have this card to win mentality and as long as that is true mythic power will reign supreme. Jace is just one example, Vengevine and Baneslayer are two more (though now it seems Baneslayer has been powercrept by Primeval Titan.)
What this means is that the vote is always going to be heavily weighted against those who are not driving the market. Which means there will always be mythic hate and complaints as the mythic cards rule the game BUT. And it is a big but I think. The game is not solely about tournament play. Or rather about official tournament play. People can play what they want when they want as long as they have someone else to play with. So if you hate the mythics, don't allow them in your games, don't play with them and enjoy the rest of the game.
Gonna have to disagree on this one. Mindslaver is one of my all time favorite cards, as it leaves a lot of room for good players to maximize or minimize it's impact.
Playing around a mindslaver can lead to players making decisions they might not normally make (using removal early, not dropping all their lands, etc.) to avoid it being a blowout. The fact that it costs a total of 10 is also in line with the effect's power. Something that costs 10 mana SHOULD basically win you the game. Also, the fact that it is an artifact is really irrelevant, because we all know mindslaver is blue.
I really like this series. After you finish the angels are you thinking of another iconic creature type? Dragons might all be too similar but I'm sure there is something else out there.
extended has become more varied a format than i expected. I am pretty unimpressed by most of these decks though. The white weenie deck is just horrible, its a total metagame deck, and if you are at all prepared its very easy to beat. The summoners trap deck looks fun though, some interesting choices in it-no removal, 4 nest invader.
I agree 100%. Mindslaver is among my top 5 least fun cards. Its right there with mind twist/armageddon/hymn to tourach/counterbalance. It is a card I would NEVER EVER play unless I was in a tournament.
Hey guys,
The Heirloom raw legal card list has been posted here http://puremtgo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2008&p=7552&sid=960e4f4ad.... I will have an easier to navigate list up as soon as possible. Thanks everyone for the games and being a part of Heirloom with me.
Xaoslegend-
It's actually 6 mana. The spellbomb costs 1 to cast, 1 to activate and (C) to draw a card off of it dying.
Chimeric Mass is the strongest card to tutor up with the mage, very excited for Trinket Mage in constructed, but will also run spellbombs for sure.
Oh dear she wont be happy with me.
Twilight Shepherd wants a word with you about Shadowmoor. Aside from that, nicely comprehensive.
I a play tournament magic, my reference to the Kitchen table players is made to illustrate a major market not influenced by mythics, magic players tend to speak on mythics as if it hits everyone, when clearly it does not. I don't have any numbers but I suspect it is very likely that more packs are sold to casual players then to tourny players.
Your argument about DVD's, movies, beer, and video games is not an accurate comparison, because the cost of a pack of cards has not gone up. This to me is not about sides, it is simply a business being a business, and since business is about making money where it can exploit a need in the market, it's hard for me to rally against it.
Considering the way it was done and the portion of players affected I think it was actually pretty risky by wizards to pin its hopes on mythics to sell packs, if that is infact true. I also do not blame wizards for the cost of cards on the secondary market, I know who is to blame for that, the unfortunate answer is me, you, and anyone else who plays at the competitive level. Star City Games also has a cross to bare in this, I think as a major retailer of secondary market cards most places fall in line with however they price cards. Think back to the first mythics Like Elspeth and Ajani, Star City priced them like other good cards and then found out through sales date that they could price cards like that much higher, why was Elspeth never 50 dollars presale? Gideon was and he is worse card in the same color. So why? Baneslayer is the short answer, Star City learned that the market would respond to a $50 mythic, but baneslayer was the perfect storm, an angel for casual players, powerful in a good color for competitive levels. The market got use to its high cost and when star city and other retailers placed jace at $50 it sold out. This is very much like the cost of gas per gallon, we all complain its 3 dollars, then 4, then 5 and after coming down to 4 and 3 we just stop yelling about it though 3 is pretty high, its a 200% increase from when I began driving in 1996.
Hopefully this better illuminates my stance, again as I said before I am not a fan of the cost but I know I am partially to blame, I have paid that cost for cards I could have just as easily said no to.
first my post was actually before both of those above me I thought my post added a post of view that wasn't discussed and brought up some points about FNM and sealed product, a major way to play FNM and to clarify our FNM takes place in draft format. I am Not sure how those other posts ended up above mine double checks time stamp???. Secondly I said I'd like to bury "lets Bury It" I never told anyone to shut up, I think maybe you are reading what you want to see not what I said.
Unless the movie you saw was Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Then you have no right to complain about, well, anything. Hell, you should have paid double. /fanboy
Also I agree. The competitive environment is what it is, and seeing it on paper often makes me happy I play online. $5 fetches vs $15 fetches? Yes please! As for kitchen table Magic, as an above poster said it hasn't really changed. I play a $15 Dredge deck every week with my friends. It's casual and fun and I don't need to shell out for Mythics.
I meant that Mox Opal was the third in the series of "nostalgia mythics", not "utility mythics". I actually tried hard not to define how many utility mythics we've seen so far because people disagree about them so much.
Well its a personal choice. If you choose to be competitive then you accept all that comes with it. Good and bad. It's obvious right now playing competitively is expensive. To know this, decide to play competitively, and still complain is crap. It's like deciding to buy a Jaguar then complaining when the maintainence required is more expensive than your friends Kia. You chose to play Magic in the expensive environment. After making that choice you really have no right to complain about prices. Same thing with your movie example. If you choose to go watch it in theaters then you shouldnt whine about paying 20-30 dollars for two tickets and drinks. Cheaper options were/are available.
See that's just it. I'm opposed to them printing utility mythics as well, flavor be damned. I just don't consider this a utility mythic.
While you do hold forth in an intelligent and respectful manner, your reasoning is flawed or at least somewhat dishonest. If one follows through with your arguments, it basically means WotC can print anything they damn well please at mythic. Take for instance the Baneslayer example. It's mythic because it's uniquely powerful. That means this card is fine too: Lotus Goyf - 6/6 trample - 1G. If that's your opinion, I'm fine with that, but it's very veiled in this article.
Also (not directed at the author), if you're just a kitchen table player who aren't affected by mythics, why even get involved in the discussion? Many tournament players are hobbled by the inflated prices of these cards, of course they're pissed, they should be. WotC are squeesing these players' wallets hard. I honestely can't see how you can be on the company's side and against your fellow gamers. Of course they're allowed to make money, but when a company takes a shit on their consumers like that, you don't thank them and rise to their defense when other consumers complain. What if game developers decided that games for your shiny PS3 will be twice as expensive from now own? Or the breweries that beer should be three times as expensive? An even more apt example would be a community of movie lovers. One half go the movie theater, one half watch DVDs in their homes. Suddenly the theater decides to take an extra 40% in admission fee. The mythic apologists are basically the DVD crowd going: "Sucks to be you lol. You can just watch on DVD like me. (But really go to the theater and spend lots of money so the studioes will make more movies for us to enjoy XD.)". I don't understand that stance and I never will.
Mindslaver is among the least fun cards I've ever experienced. It's even worse than Mind Twist, and I played with and against that one plenty back when you could play four of them. To each his own, I suppose.
And if the new set of spellbombs are any good Trinket Mage will be that much better. For 5 mana you'll get a 2/2, some small utility effect, and a card. Sadly, as a Pauper and casual player I'm looking forward to the spellbombs being spoiled most of all.
Trinket Mage is certainly going to be huge. The fact that it can fetch Opal Mox, Basilisk Collar, and Brittle Effigy means that it pretty much trumps Stoneforge Mystic.
I would expect to a lot of players trying out Red and Blue decks after Scars for Trinket Mage/Cunning Sparkmage and Jace.
It also has the effect of making FNM level events actually have non-netdecks appearing. I can show up at FNM with my random W/B concoction and am likely to play at least 2-3 rounds against other peoples random concoctions, just because they can't afford the ridiculous tournament decks. I don't really know whether this is a good thing for magic in general, but I quite enjoy it.
I hardly own any mythics to be honest. I have a set of grave titans that I bought on pre-order for cheap, and some chandras and sorins, but I wouldn't even consider some of the prices I see cards at now. It's a shame, because Abyssal persecutor and venser both really appeal to me.
Remember that we're going to get another two sets of scars block. It's going to see play in something sooner or later. I imagine it'll show up in legacy affinity, if scars boosts that deck back to playable as well.
Also, we know trinket mage is back, so I guess it might show up as a 1-of in various lists that way.
I'm not sure I'm keen on the logic that we can have it as a utility mythic as long as it has a flavour-evoking name. I mean, what's to stop them printing dual-lands under the name "baron sengirs mountain retreat" or something? Obviously, this seems far-fetched but it's the same logic.
You are more than welcome to not participate. But it seems to me that telling people to shut up is just asking for an explosion. In fact it is probably unintentional on your part but what you ended with could be taken as provocation for further discussion not less. If you truly wish the whole thing tabled, stay out of it. :p Also note that much of what you said about prices and tourney players was echoed by other posts above, so it wasn't critical to add anything more.
"Personally I've disliked mythics since their release. Some of the best staples in the game are getting printed at mythic and that's just making magic unaffordable to a lot of players"
I dont fully agree with that, or to be more accurate, I would say that it is one point of view but there are also others to consider. In fact, in my opinion (I didnt have done a real empirical survey, so consider that as feelings only), Mythic rarity increased the tournament decks average price for sure (a lot). But simultaneously, it seems also that the rare cards average price decreased. So in a way, you could also consider that mtg players could get an easier access to theses cards (rare) than it was before. It seems that it enlarged the hole between competitive and casual : it doesnt necessarly mean that it is making "mtg less affodable", but it mostly makes "competitive mtg less affordable". Is that better or worse than before ? What is the impact on mtg player recruitment ? an easier access to casual and harder access to competitive is it healthly regarding the number of player ? I dont know at the moment, but theses details should take part in the reasonning imho.
I liked the article, it was a well balanced look at the subject.
Mythics have not made magic too expensive to play. I am sure many of you disagree with me already, but hear me out. Mythic rarity has increased the cost to play tournament magic. If you are a kitchen table player and not a tourny player then the cost of magic hasn't changed. A draft is still 10-15 dollars, the cost of starters haven't varied much, and boosters are still 3.99 in the US. This may seem like splitting hairs but it is really a very important distinction to make. This is not an argument for mythic rarity, more of a clarification because I hear complaints about it pretty often at my shop. I feel like Wizards knew what they were doing when they announced mythics, and they knew who would bare the greatest coast of this new rarity, the tourny players, tournament players know you have to pay to play, kitchen table players mostly wouldn't pay for a $300 competitive deck, so the mythics bumping that cost up to $500 doesn't really matter. I don't love mythics, I surely don't love shelling out tons of cash for play-sets, but whats done is done and lets bury this conversations it's nearly 2 years-old
Momir is a great version of magic on the rare occasion you can find an opponent to play. I do find that it seems to have a lot of quitters, as soon as you hit something nutty, but that's more a critique of the casual room than the format itself.
We know the market will bear just about anything given the nature of spikes and tourney play. Spikes drive the market with their must have this card to win mentality and as long as that is true mythic power will reign supreme. Jace is just one example, Vengevine and Baneslayer are two more (though now it seems Baneslayer has been powercrept by Primeval Titan.)
What this means is that the vote is always going to be heavily weighted against those who are not driving the market. Which means there will always be mythic hate and complaints as the mythic cards rule the game BUT. And it is a big but I think. The game is not solely about tournament play. Or rather about official tournament play. People can play what they want when they want as long as they have someone else to play with. So if you hate the mythics, don't allow them in your games, don't play with them and enjoy the rest of the game.