Well my next articles will probably be updated versions of legacy card pricing compared to the last time I wrote on it (Feb or May, can't remember) and the other one will probably be some 2 man results from me playing Valakut Ramp and Mass Polymorph decks for standard. Hopefully neither of these things you plan on writing about lol.
Maybe it is a simple as great minds think alike. ;)
Glad to see important concepts of the game are appreciated/recognised by players. Card Advantage is an age old thing that often get forgotten by people who spend too much time thinking about a single card rather than deck synergy (and how much power overall it can provide).
Look forward to your guys articles. And thanks for the replies.
If I had more time mine would have been submitted by now lol I was actually going to finish it up today (it's two parts) and submit the first part, why does it seem we're always thinking the same thing on articles? lol are you stalking me? reading my mind? either way I'm afraid...
Not writing.......wrote and already submitted lol. Funny thing is, I thought the same thing myself, no one has written about card advantage so maybe it's time for an article.
Mine is in simple terms, I'm sure yours will be just fine to submit as well. You always out do me anyways lol.
I've played both apes and BG zombies and only the BG zombies were strong and got me to at least 2-1, my ape deck needed some work, should revist that one
there is a lot of power in overlooked tribes, but they will still lose to t1 decks like elves/gobos/mer, guess their like t1.5? 2? they are still highly competitive yet not overly powered to win in a format without sideboards.. that's what i think the level of the tourny should be
I came back 2 months ago after a 2 year hiatus too, and I was also surprised at how much everything changed. It is quite sad that the Auction room is quieter these days, I also miss the /trivia guys, but that says a lot about how the mass of bots has meant that there are very low margins to be arbitraged, and that's hardly a bad thing.
One thing you missed out was the phenomenon of Commander: 2 years ago, FFA was the sweetheart format in multiplayer after 2HG, and now it is practically a dead format with the introduction of Commander. Sheldon's EDH has just an incredible casual player appeal and even the old Chaos PRE has switched to that format. I think there are also more PREs nowadays too, especially in Pauper, since more vendors are happy to sponsor them. Happy days! :D
Now I had the time to read the scars primer and I couldn't agree more with you when you say: "However I have to say that for the first time in a while I'm just not quite as excited about the newest set as I have been in the past."
I was beginning to think I was alone there... I can't exactly explain how I feel about it, I just think it lacks... something. I will participate in the Coalition League Season 3 going full scars and I'll probably try out a couple of 4-booster sealed if Wizards will give us the possibility (going probably to play in the TNM) but if my impressions get confirmed I'll probably go back to M11, a set I've come to terms with lately.
When I was looking at Pack 1 Pick 5 I thought, "Oh, nice golem." But you explained really well how you wanted to "resolved to learn how to best use it." I really respect that approach to bettering your overall play. Thanks for that perspective.
I completely understand the whole dilemma about how much effort to sink into an article. Some of the efforts on this site are top-notch in which the author obviously sunk a ton of time into. And then others, well, they leave a lot to be desired. They almost reek of "hey I'm just writing this real quick to get some free credits. peace."
I'd agree that a full-on, comprehensive draft article would be exhausting. Godot was the the first/best person I've seen to approach a draft in this way, beating out almost every other "premium" draft article on other websites.
Anyway, keep up the good work. And take down your evaluation of Assassinate a bit. It's kind of... not good. =)
I started this debate trying to be on the Anti-banning side of things by offering a compromise.
"Don't ban merfolk or any other tribes, just ban the cards that are annoying and make that deck broken."
and I ended up on the Pro-Banning side of things.
"Ban AEther Vial and Force of Will because they are causing problems."
@endless - For the record, I don't mind keeping Force of Will legal, AEther Vial has always been the number one problem, and I basically agree with Whiffy on almost all of his points. I basically just disagree with you saying that Force of Will is terrible. I think it's reasonably strong in Merfolk, and it's an expensive part of a classic net-deck which is basically disliked because of creative and budget reasons more than power level reasons.
If you look back to my earlier walkthroughs on this site, I used to do extensive "under the microscope" analysis of specific turns, "Would you mull this" at the beginning of each game, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier walkthrough, I stopped doing this for a few reasons.
1) I had learned a lot of what there was for me to learn by analyzing my plays in such exhaustive detail. Though not all, of course, as Magic players we always have more to learn!
2) More importantly, it was taking so long to write reports at that level of detail that I was posting less articles, and even drafting less drafts. The time to do one writeup was as long as it would take me to play maybe two more drafts! They were useful articles, but I could only do that so often.
3) I felt the pick analysis is what a lot of players value the most in draft articles. I know I do whenever there's a new format I'm trying to learn, and the game walkthroughs are more "entertainment" than learning important things (though there's a little of that too).
With my time getting scarcer 'cause of more work to do as well, I decided I'd rather be able to get more articles posted than I could with full game walkthroughs, screenshots, etc. Also being able to squeeze in more drafts, though I haven't managed that much so far. Did take down a paper Scars prerelease & qualify for one of my local stores' monthly tournament, made top 8 and won my first cash prize at Magic. But I still am not getting many MTGO drafts in lately.
When Scars comes out, I promise I'll get some drafts in early and try and help people get a handle on what cards are good while everybody's still learning the format. So far in paper I'm 12-15 on matches, including a 3-0 in my one draft. It's a fun format, and I'm looking forward to drafting it again at FNM this week!
FoW will not be banned as it’s a good deterrent for combo decks and speaking of combo decks in tribal it's my speciality, I've just been holding back lately.
Without combo decks? Dredge wants a word with you as does zombie bidding and any number of other combos. Oh wait you meant without "turn 1 I win!" combos...yeah not so much. I think people understand card advantage...None of the participants in this discussion here are newbs. In fact I think they understand all too well they just disagree with us about it being a deterrent to wanting to play FOW in tribal. Which is silly because generally speaking FOW is as you point out best vs the fast combo engines and in the counter war scenario which is very very rare in TWC, though I have seen Illusions vs Wizards go at it a few times. It still does not suck to counter a sweeper or something that makes your fish cry (Moat? No...by force of will! oh and take 8!) but as you and Whiffy point out it has a cost associated with it that makes that play the exception not the rule. (Sure I'll take 8, good thing I always keep a spare...Moat? gg.)
Yea, it was missing the pyromancer ping when I was at 4 life and you had 2 power and a cloak, I remember. The only advice I can give is when using a little bit more complicated card like fling is to read it multiple times to see what you need to target with it. I am glad Harm's way is gone because that is another really complicated card to use on MTGO.
Whiffy: Trying to explain card disadvantage to some people here in a format without combo decks apparently is impossible. If force was good in tribal, quite simply, I'd play it often. I've tested with and without it in blue decks that can support it.
My argument for having it banned is mostly political over its power level. Many players dislike the card, and don't want to see it played against them. They will complain about the format as long as they have to face it. I would rather see it banned and be done with the arguing than to have a divide among the players fighting over whether or not it's fair to use.
Force of Will is the most expensive counterspell ever printed, and it also allows control players to play aggressively when they would normally have to play defensively. It breaks a fundamental rule of magic which is that you can't counter spells if you have no mana available. It often acts as a Time Walk which is well worth the price. It combos with cards like Standstill to create situations that are very unfun to play against. For these reasons many players strongly dislike this card and grumble and complain about it being used against them. Add to the fact that Tribal is a format without sideboards, and you can see why a Standstill lock with Force of Will back-up might not be something that players want to see in the environment.
Is is necessarily better than just playing with Mana Drains or Counterbalance? Possibly, Possibly not.
But I know one thing for sure. It doesn't suck as you suggest it does.
If you argued that it was a necessary card in the format to fight against combo, I would believe you and probably drop the issue.
If you argued that it is not always the best counterspell to use with all blue decks, I would believe you.
But to say that it is a terrible card for the format, should never be used because it's so much worse than other counterspells and we're all poor and ignorant for not believing you. Well, that just makes me want to argue the point even harder with you.
heh,people keep talking about force. Ill throw an expanded two cents in; call it a nickel.
In a setting that is not cut throat, fow does two things for the pilot. It allows them to answer any card but a land, and it allows them to tap out every time. However in a format like tribal you absolutly have to be either mono blue or nearly mono with a small splash. There is no way you can justify playing force otherwise. Did you know that to consistently rely on force of will you need 16 OTHER blue cards? Thats just rediculos. Now I wont say that countering any spell be it a dude or a sweeper is a bad thing, and at the cost of a life its ussally no problem, but the card disadvantage is pretty big. What if you remove a bomby guy, or a removal spell to fow? Now your down 2 cards in a format all about advantages, and you only dealt with one threat. Boom, they untap and you got jack for there next bomb.
I will say that fow in merfolk is about the best you could possibly get in tribal. Its got standstill, and reduntent creatures to throw away to fow. But the problem with merfolk is Aether vial, it allows the deck to do what ever it wants, also its pretty damn good in goblins, especially since lackey is banned.
And i played a little tribal yester day, proving my word to try and be unfair as i posted earlyer. I built a kobold endruring renewal/goblin bombardment deck. I asked aj impy to play the most disgusting thing he had, since i assumed i would be winning on t4 all the time and maybe t3. His elemental deck beat me like 7 times to 0. And some people bitch about merfolk? Peolpe only bitch because they see a tournament deck, and a 70 dollar counterspell. That elemental deck seemed a thousand times better then merfolk.
If i had any control or influence at all i would suggest that flip do two things.
1. ban aether vial. You already banned lackey, and there very similar in what they allow.
2. do a poll of your participants and clearly define the format and its goals and then change or express why your not changing something.
Lastly, why is vampiric tutor not banned but imperial seal is? or is that just an ommission from the mtg site?
@Undeadgod
Dude!!! I saw that Ape deck. It was awesome. It was the first (and unfortunately only) tribal tournie I'd played in and I'd just been smashed by Shardfenix's Elf deck in the first round. I was lamenting the unoriginality of the deck, being as I was generally unimpressed with his deck. The creativity I saw week in week out in the articles was one of the main draws for me to the event. Down in the dumps, I saw your game running and took a peek. You were going toe-to-toe with a fascinating BG zombie deck. It was a pleasure to watch, so much so I can't remember who won and to be honest it does much matter to me.
@everyone else
I hear all the calls for bannings and the shouts of sore loser; I respect both sides I really do. It makes me sad that there is still a divide. I understand that unless you state explicitly that a certain tribe/deck/card is not accepted that you shouldn't complain when it's played and certainly shouldn't publicly denigrate the player for doing so. But I also understand that getting your backside handed to you by an established tier 1 pro-tournie deck when you're playing Oouphes is not going to be fun. 3 rounds is a short number of rounds to stomach that even once. So I can understand when someone needs to vent a little.
I don't have an answer. I have several :) But as they've all been suggested before, and in a number of cases tried, I will let Flippers try and solve it this time around.
For the record here are my requirements for participation in the tournament:
- I enjoy the creativity of the format and the competitiveness of the games and wish this to be encouraged;
- I want close games with lots of interactivity and each player doing their best to win;
- I don't like to play against the same decks every week;
- I also don't want to have to play the same deck each week to be competitive.
If you can managed to meet all my needs then I'll be a happy participant and look forward to joining in, assuming of course the missus gives me a spare evening! :(
That bot is a prophet, I am totally a believer. We must build it an altar!
Well my next articles will probably be updated versions of legacy card pricing compared to the last time I wrote on it (Feb or May, can't remember) and the other one will probably be some 2 man results from me playing Valakut Ramp and Mass Polymorph decks for standard. Hopefully neither of these things you plan on writing about lol.
Maybe it is a simple as great minds think alike. ;)
Glad to see important concepts of the game are appreciated/recognised by players. Card Advantage is an age old thing that often get forgotten by people who spend too much time thinking about a single card rather than deck synergy (and how much power overall it can provide).
Look forward to your guys articles. And thanks for the replies.
If I had more time mine would have been submitted by now lol I was actually going to finish it up today (it's two parts) and submit the first part, why does it seem we're always thinking the same thing on articles? lol are you stalking me? reading my mind? either way I'm afraid...
Not writing.......wrote and already submitted lol. Funny thing is, I thought the same thing myself, no one has written about card advantage so maybe it's time for an article.
Mine is in simple terms, I'm sure yours will be just fine to submit as well. You always out do me anyways lol.
what the crap you're writing an article on card advantage too? think I have a great idea and it gets stolen from me lol
I've played both apes and BG zombies and only the BG zombies were strong and got me to at least 2-1, my ape deck needed some work, should revist that one
there is a lot of power in overlooked tribes, but they will still lose to t1 decks like elves/gobos/mer, guess their like t1.5? 2? they are still highly competitive yet not overly powered to win in a format without sideboards.. that's what i think the level of the tourny should be
I came back 2 months ago after a 2 year hiatus too, and I was also surprised at how much everything changed. It is quite sad that the Auction room is quieter these days, I also miss the /trivia guys, but that says a lot about how the mass of bots has meant that there are very low margins to be arbitraged, and that's hardly a bad thing.
One thing you missed out was the phenomenon of Commander: 2 years ago, FFA was the sweetheart format in multiplayer after 2HG, and now it is practically a dead format with the introduction of Commander. Sheldon's EDH has just an incredible casual player appeal and even the old Chaos PRE has switched to that format. I think there are also more PREs nowadays too, especially in Pauper, since more vendors are happy to sponsor them. Happy days! :D
Now I had the time to read the scars primer and I couldn't agree more with you when you say: "However I have to say that for the first time in a while I'm just not quite as excited about the newest set as I have been in the past."
I was beginning to think I was alone there... I can't exactly explain how I feel about it, I just think it lacks... something. I will participate in the Coalition League Season 3 going full scars and I'll probably try out a couple of 4-booster sealed if Wizards will give us the possibility (going probably to play in the TNM) but if my impressions get confirmed I'll probably go back to M11, a set I've come to terms with lately.
When I was looking at Pack 1 Pick 5 I thought, "Oh, nice golem." But you explained really well how you wanted to "resolved to learn how to best use it." I really respect that approach to bettering your overall play. Thanks for that perspective.
Now THAT would be boring.
I completely understand the whole dilemma about how much effort to sink into an article. Some of the efforts on this site are top-notch in which the author obviously sunk a ton of time into. And then others, well, they leave a lot to be desired. They almost reek of "hey I'm just writing this real quick to get some free credits. peace."
I'd agree that a full-on, comprehensive draft article would be exhausting. Godot was the the first/best person I've seen to approach a draft in this way, beating out almost every other "premium" draft article on other websites.
Anyway, keep up the good work. And take down your evaluation of Assassinate a bit. It's kind of... not good. =)
ban non creature cards.
I started this debate trying to be on the Anti-banning side of things by offering a compromise.
"Don't ban merfolk or any other tribes, just ban the cards that are annoying and make that deck broken."
and I ended up on the Pro-Banning side of things.
"Ban AEther Vial and Force of Will because they are causing problems."
@endless - For the record, I don't mind keeping Force of Will legal, AEther Vial has always been the number one problem, and I basically agree with Whiffy on almost all of his points. I basically just disagree with you saying that Force of Will is terrible. I think it's reasonably strong in Merfolk, and it's an expensive part of a classic net-deck which is basically disliked because of creative and budget reasons more than power level reasons.
you are rating assasinate way over the top. i'd pick child of night over second easily. Also,there is no way i pick call to mind over digger
If you look back to my earlier walkthroughs on this site, I used to do extensive "under the microscope" analysis of specific turns, "Would you mull this" at the beginning of each game, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier walkthrough, I stopped doing this for a few reasons.
1) I had learned a lot of what there was for me to learn by analyzing my plays in such exhaustive detail. Though not all, of course, as Magic players we always have more to learn!
2) More importantly, it was taking so long to write reports at that level of detail that I was posting less articles, and even drafting less drafts. The time to do one writeup was as long as it would take me to play maybe two more drafts! They were useful articles, but I could only do that so often.
3) I felt the pick analysis is what a lot of players value the most in draft articles. I know I do whenever there's a new format I'm trying to learn, and the game walkthroughs are more "entertainment" than learning important things (though there's a little of that too).
With my time getting scarcer 'cause of more work to do as well, I decided I'd rather be able to get more articles posted than I could with full game walkthroughs, screenshots, etc. Also being able to squeeze in more drafts, though I haven't managed that much so far. Did take down a paper Scars prerelease & qualify for one of my local stores' monthly tournament, made top 8 and won my first cash prize at Magic. But I still am not getting many MTGO drafts in lately.
When Scars comes out, I promise I'll get some drafts in early and try and help people get a handle on what cards are good while everybody's still learning the format. So far in paper I'm 12-15 on matches, including a 3-0 in my one draft. It's a fun format, and I'm looking forward to drafting it again at FNM this week!
FoW will not be banned as it’s a good deterrent for combo decks and speaking of combo decks in tribal it's my speciality, I've just been holding back lately.
Whiffy to answer your points,
AEther Vial will be banned after this weekends tournament.
The format will be defined in next weeks article with a lot of extra stuff so everyone is very clear on what to expect going forwards.
"Lastly, why is vampiric tutor not banned but imperial seal is? or is that just an ommission from the mtg site?"
It's an omission from the site, it's banned in the client
Without combo decks? Dredge wants a word with you as does zombie bidding and any number of other combos. Oh wait you meant without "turn 1 I win!" combos...yeah not so much. I think people understand card advantage...None of the participants in this discussion here are newbs. In fact I think they understand all too well they just disagree with us about it being a deterrent to wanting to play FOW in tribal. Which is silly because generally speaking FOW is as you point out best vs the fast combo engines and in the counter war scenario which is very very rare in TWC, though I have seen Illusions vs Wizards go at it a few times. It still does not suck to counter a sweeper or something that makes your fish cry (Moat? No...by force of will! oh and take 8!) but as you and Whiffy point out it has a cost associated with it that makes that play the exception not the rule. (Sure I'll take 8, good thing I always keep a spare...Moat? gg.)
Omission on the site. Pay the site no heed and instead look at the client.
Yea, it was missing the pyromancer ping when I was at 4 life and you had 2 power and a cloak, I remember. The only advice I can give is when using a little bit more complicated card like fling is to read it multiple times to see what you need to target with it. I am glad Harm's way is gone because that is another really complicated card to use on MTGO.
Whiffy: Trying to explain card disadvantage to some people here in a format without combo decks apparently is impossible. If force was good in tribal, quite simply, I'd play it often. I've tested with and without it in blue decks that can support it.
My argument for having it banned is mostly political over its power level. Many players dislike the card, and don't want to see it played against them. They will complain about the format as long as they have to face it. I would rather see it banned and be done with the arguing than to have a divide among the players fighting over whether or not it's fair to use.
Force of Will is the most expensive counterspell ever printed, and it also allows control players to play aggressively when they would normally have to play defensively. It breaks a fundamental rule of magic which is that you can't counter spells if you have no mana available. It often acts as a Time Walk which is well worth the price. It combos with cards like Standstill to create situations that are very unfun to play against. For these reasons many players strongly dislike this card and grumble and complain about it being used against them. Add to the fact that Tribal is a format without sideboards, and you can see why a Standstill lock with Force of Will back-up might not be something that players want to see in the environment.
Is is necessarily better than just playing with Mana Drains or Counterbalance? Possibly, Possibly not.
But I know one thing for sure. It doesn't suck as you suggest it does.
If you argued that it was a necessary card in the format to fight against combo, I would believe you and probably drop the issue.
If you argued that it is not always the best counterspell to use with all blue decks, I would believe you.
But to say that it is a terrible card for the format, should never be used because it's so much worse than other counterspells and we're all poor and ignorant for not believing you. Well, that just makes me want to argue the point even harder with you.
heh,people keep talking about force. Ill throw an expanded two cents in; call it a nickel.
In a setting that is not cut throat, fow does two things for the pilot. It allows them to answer any card but a land, and it allows them to tap out every time. However in a format like tribal you absolutly have to be either mono blue or nearly mono with a small splash. There is no way you can justify playing force otherwise. Did you know that to consistently rely on force of will you need 16 OTHER blue cards? Thats just rediculos. Now I wont say that countering any spell be it a dude or a sweeper is a bad thing, and at the cost of a life its ussally no problem, but the card disadvantage is pretty big. What if you remove a bomby guy, or a removal spell to fow? Now your down 2 cards in a format all about advantages, and you only dealt with one threat. Boom, they untap and you got jack for there next bomb.
I will say that fow in merfolk is about the best you could possibly get in tribal. Its got standstill, and reduntent creatures to throw away to fow. But the problem with merfolk is Aether vial, it allows the deck to do what ever it wants, also its pretty damn good in goblins, especially since lackey is banned.
And i played a little tribal yester day, proving my word to try and be unfair as i posted earlyer. I built a kobold endruring renewal/goblin bombardment deck. I asked aj impy to play the most disgusting thing he had, since i assumed i would be winning on t4 all the time and maybe t3. His elemental deck beat me like 7 times to 0. And some people bitch about merfolk? Peolpe only bitch because they see a tournament deck, and a 70 dollar counterspell. That elemental deck seemed a thousand times better then merfolk.
If i had any control or influence at all i would suggest that flip do two things.
1. ban aether vial. You already banned lackey, and there very similar in what they allow.
2. do a poll of your participants and clearly define the format and its goals and then change or express why your not changing something.
Lastly, why is vampiric tutor not banned but imperial seal is? or is that just an ommission from the mtg site?
@Undeadgod
Dude!!! I saw that Ape deck. It was awesome. It was the first (and unfortunately only) tribal tournie I'd played in and I'd just been smashed by Shardfenix's Elf deck in the first round. I was lamenting the unoriginality of the deck, being as I was generally unimpressed with his deck. The creativity I saw week in week out in the articles was one of the main draws for me to the event. Down in the dumps, I saw your game running and took a peek. You were going toe-to-toe with a fascinating BG zombie deck. It was a pleasure to watch, so much so I can't remember who won and to be honest it does much matter to me.
@everyone else
I hear all the calls for bannings and the shouts of sore loser; I respect both sides I really do. It makes me sad that there is still a divide. I understand that unless you state explicitly that a certain tribe/deck/card is not accepted that you shouldn't complain when it's played and certainly shouldn't publicly denigrate the player for doing so. But I also understand that getting your backside handed to you by an established tier 1 pro-tournie deck when you're playing Oouphes is not going to be fun. 3 rounds is a short number of rounds to stomach that even once. So I can understand when someone needs to vent a little.
I don't have an answer. I have several :) But as they've all been suggested before, and in a number of cases tried, I will let Flippers try and solve it this time around.
For the record here are my requirements for participation in the tournament:
- I enjoy the creativity of the format and the competitiveness of the games and wish this to be encouraged;
- I want close games with lots of interactivity and each player doing their best to win;
- I don't like to play against the same decks every week;
- I also don't want to have to play the same deck each week to be competitive.
If you can managed to meet all my needs then I'll be a happy participant and look forward to joining in, assuming of course the missus gives me a spare evening! :(