In what sense no love for permission?, no good cards?, people ragging on them?, It seems that permission has enough tools in Heirloom to protect combo or defeat combo, probably not enough to stop the aggro decks, those have been pretty absent so far though(a few more lately, still very low relative to most formats I see)
Anyhow glad to hear you're digging it. The next event is Saturday, (Tomorrow 11AM pacific standard time (LA,CA,USA) my time that is that time right now is 9:28 AM) Hope to see you there.
Hammy, you might want to be a little more careful with throwing abreviations around without defining them.
From this article it would be very difficult to understand that ROI stands for "return on investvent" unless you were already familiar with that concept. Even in the refresher article you mention return on investment in one sentence but don't link it the the abreviation ROI, you just start using ROI. This probably would be less of a problem if ROI wasn't similar to a magic set abreviation, Rise of the Eldrazi (ROE).
I'm not even sure if you're using the term correctly. It seems like you are using Return on Investment (ROI) interchangeably with the Expected Value (EV) of tournament winnings. This kind of glosses over the fact that you still have to win tournaments and play reasonably well in order to get any kind of ROI.
as a very aggressive player I appreciate the insight. when I lose it's to people who are patient and concentrate on card advantage, and winning the match not game.
why do permission decks get no love. come on nothing is more fun than saying no to your hated enemy. anyway yea having lots of fun with the format really want to try and make the next event is it on saturday or sunday?
I am torn. I like this article because it provides more examples, but I like Raddman's article because it is all contained in one article. This is Part 1? Oh my! Go card advantage week!
I won't address your point because I simply don't have an answer, but StP being $8 at first isn't quite fair. When it first hit MTGO it was released in a precon rather than as part of a set. I don't expect Gush and Daze to hold their value once they're released as part of a set either.
Seems worth mention that these 2 new decks also have fully built sideboards, which add 4 relic of progenitus, 3 more pyroblast, and 3 more price of progress to the fireslinger deck. Exiler's SB has 4 Kor Firewalkers, and brings most of the other stuff in the deck to 4 of's. On an odd note the 3 Stoneforge Mystic seem well timed to be in a theme deck. I imagine that will help sell it a little. I want the 3 Karakas from it, since I never bothered to get more then one. I think the name "Exiler" seemed odd to me till I saw the 3 Karakas, and 4 Mangara in the maindeck..
Both of these decks look fun to play, actually. Simple, but fun.
I'd say harrow and cultivate give your card adv and tempo. Compulsive research gives you true card advantage which usually leads to some type of a tempo swing as you are drawing more answers than your opponent and later in the game those plays should and usually do effect the game state. If I draw the one answer I need to win the game with research, then who really cares about the tempo loss. I guess that is why this subject has been hashed and rehashed several times lol
And no it's not card advantage week, guess everyone here had similar ideas.
Looks like round one goes to you JustSin, you always out do me lol. Nicely done!
Is it "card advantage week" on puremtgo or something??!!
Anyway, could you elaborate slightly on this 'golden rule'?;
"Games are won through controlling tempo, which is created through card advantage."
In my opinion, the two are often diametrically opposed? e.g. if I unsummon your wurmcoil engine, so that I can swing in with my inferno titan, then I've improved my tempo, but I'm down a card.
On the other hand, if I spend my turn casting compulsive research, I'm up a card, but I've essentially lost tempo, as I've spent a turn not affecting the board.
Obviously, these are two extreme examples at each end. But I can't think of many plays which I think would create tempo through card advantage. Am I just misunderstanding your quote?
You can preview the decklists in the Momir and the Magic Online Deck series by going to your Deck Editor and loading them up from the Theme Decks directory. Cards of note:
Momir contains an alt art Momir Avatar, 12 lands of each colour, one from every set and one which is a Guru promo which is pretty cool. I guess it's expected to retail at $9.99 given how high the Momir Avatar already is worth, and this might be a signal that Wizards is looking to support more Momir events outside of the 2-men queues.
Boltslinger contains 4 Goblin Guides, 4 Fireblast, and 1 Price of Progress. Nothing special to see here, maybe this will drop Fireblast prices a bit for Pauper but I doubt it, this doesn't seem to be very good value for money, unless it retails for like $9.99 too.
Exiler has a lot more valuable cards, check it out for yourself but its value for money depends on how much it retails for I guess. Given that most decks Wizards put out these days are $19.99, I doubt this will see much sales either.
An interesting comment. I wonder if the PTB really care that there IS such a barrier. To my mind they don't. I think they let things take their course pretty much unless there is a huge outcry and even then it's the 3 steps forward 5 steps back approach often enough. Wasteland is a staple only in Eternal formats so I am guessing their thinking is those who want to play those formats will continue to shell out the money as they have for the other staples (FoW, Dual Lands etc.) Because that is what has consistently happened in the past.
I'm really tired of Wasteland constantly inching up. It's a friggin uncommon! Are they just trying to intentionally mirror the paper values? Why has Swords to Plowshares (arguably the most prevalent Legacy creature spot-removal) been "reprinted" over and over, but Wasteland . . . nothing. Just the over-valued Tempest one. It's not like you can avoid needing them for mono-colored aggro decks let alone control. Someone at CQ had said that when StP was first released on MODO it was about $8, and now it's less than a buck. But it's less of a staple than Wasteland, so I really don't understand purposefully establishing these barriers to entry into a format. The trouble is, they let the situation get out of hand. They let some staples get to such a level that they become unreprintable without drawing scorn from all those who bought them at the inflated prices. Grrr. Sorry [/rant]
I am hoping they are not gold bordered, am afraid they might be... advantage of them in paper is that they can be still used as proxies around the kitchen table ... on here no...
but if you look at collection cards owned less than or equal to zero = there are tabs with new cards that are not gold bordered... so hey...
See i though the MODS(deck series) was something that had been mentioned previously. though it could have been for paper only, but they were releasing pre-made decks though that were supposedly good enough for someone to buy, open, and play in a FNM...could these be the same things? or did i just have a random dream one night?
Ah, the age old debate. I have my reasons for not jumping in until now. Heck, I'm not particularily diving into the fray personally, so I'll get Pete Jahn to make my point for me.
OK, this is a little embarrassing, but can someone tell me how to put a decklist in an article, or at least point me in the direction of a document that explains this? Obviously I've been away awhile. I wanted to include a decklist with this article but I couldn't figure out the formatting.
It lets you search for cards by name very quickly, has the whole list as it is atm (make sure you check for updates as this program's list may become outdated) shows a picture of a card when teh card is selected, lets you build a deck (without sideboard distinction atm) and export that deck to forums like so: (Clearly doesnt work in this article response thread lol, works most places though) Decklist:
* 1 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Tradewinds&v=card&s=cname]AEther Tradewinds[/url]
* 4 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Akki+Underling&v=card&s=cname]Akki Underling[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Roar+of+the+Crowd&v=card&s=cname]Roar of the Crowd[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Teferi%27s+Puzzle+Box&v=card&s=cname]Teferi's Puzzle Box[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Zombie+Outlander&v=card&s=cname]Zombie Outlander[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Floodbringer&v=card&s=cname]Floodbringer[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Blazing+Salvo&v=card&s=cname]Blazing Salvo[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Blinding+Beam&v=card&s=cname]Blinding Beam[/url]
* 2 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Mutation&v=card&s=cname]AEther Mutation[/url]
* 2 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Charge&v=card&s=cname]AEther Charge[/url]
It has a funtion to check the legality of an imported list (though I'm unsure atm of how to format that easilty)
All and all the program is very efficient and useful.
Thanks a ton Rincewind, very cool creation for us and very appreciated effort
Oh hey negative,
In what sense no love for permission?, no good cards?, people ragging on them?, It seems that permission has enough tools in Heirloom to protect combo or defeat combo, probably not enough to stop the aggro decks, those have been pretty absent so far though(a few more lately, still very low relative to most formats I see)
Anyhow glad to hear you're digging it. The next event is Saturday, (Tomorrow 11AM pacific standard time (LA,CA,USA) my time that is that time right now is 9:28 AM) Hope to see you there.
X-
Hammy, you might want to be a little more careful with throwing abreviations around without defining them.
From this article it would be very difficult to understand that ROI stands for "return on investvent" unless you were already familiar with that concept. Even in the refresher article you mention return on investment in one sentence but don't link it the the abreviation ROI, you just start using ROI. This probably would be less of a problem if ROI wasn't similar to a magic set abreviation, Rise of the Eldrazi (ROE).
I'm not even sure if you're using the term correctly. It seems like you are using Return on Investment (ROI) interchangeably with the Expected Value (EV) of tournament winnings. This kind of glosses over the fact that you still have to win tournaments and play reasonably well in order to get any kind of ROI.
as a very aggressive player I appreciate the insight. when I lose it's to people who are patient and concentrate on card advantage, and winning the match not game.
why do permission decks get no love. come on nothing is more fun than saying no to your hated enemy. anyway yea having lots of fun with the format really want to try and make the next event is it on saturday or sunday?
I am torn. I like this article because it provides more examples, but I like Raddman's article because it is all contained in one article. This is Part 1? Oh my! Go card advantage week!
I won't address your point because I simply don't have an answer, but StP being $8 at first isn't quite fair. When it first hit MTGO it was released in a precon rather than as part of a set. I don't expect Gush and Daze to hold their value once they're released as part of a set either.
Don't forget that this is also a great boon to 100c singleton and classic which both get significant upgrades to prize packs.
Seems worth mention that these 2 new decks also have fully built sideboards, which add 4 relic of progenitus, 3 more pyroblast, and 3 more price of progress to the fireslinger deck. Exiler's SB has 4 Kor Firewalkers, and brings most of the other stuff in the deck to 4 of's. On an odd note the 3 Stoneforge Mystic seem well timed to be in a theme deck. I imagine that will help sell it a little. I want the 3 Karakas from it, since I never bothered to get more then one. I think the name "Exiler" seemed odd to me till I saw the 3 Karakas, and 4 Mangara in the maindeck..
Both of these decks look fun to play, actually. Simple, but fun.
Here are two examples that I wrote about previously. I'll let you search the mainsite in the tournament result section to find any newer ones.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/two-man-extravaganza
Look towards the bottom of the article
I'd say harrow and cultivate give your card adv and tempo. Compulsive research gives you true card advantage which usually leads to some type of a tempo swing as you are drawing more answers than your opponent and later in the game those plays should and usually do effect the game state. If I draw the one answer I need to win the game with research, then who really cares about the tempo loss. I guess that is why this subject has been hashed and rehashed several times lol
And no it's not card advantage week, guess everyone here had similar ideas.
Looks like round one goes to you JustSin, you always out do me lol. Nicely done!
Good article. Very well done sir
Is it "card advantage week" on puremtgo or something??!!
Anyway, could you elaborate slightly on this 'golden rule'?;
"Games are won through controlling tempo, which is created through card advantage."
In my opinion, the two are often diametrically opposed? e.g. if I unsummon your wurmcoil engine, so that I can swing in with my inferno titan, then I've improved my tempo, but I'm down a card.
On the other hand, if I spend my turn casting compulsive research, I'm up a card, but I've essentially lost tempo, as I've spent a turn not affecting the board.
Obviously, these are two extreme examples at each end. But I can't think of many plays which I think would create tempo through card advantage. Am I just misunderstanding your quote?
i feel like there's a competition going on here with both CA articles up lol nice stuff man
Hello!
I will appeciate giving examples of legacy online rogue decks.
You can preview the decklists in the Momir and the Magic Online Deck series by going to your Deck Editor and loading them up from the Theme Decks directory. Cards of note:
Momir contains an alt art Momir Avatar, 12 lands of each colour, one from every set and one which is a Guru promo which is pretty cool. I guess it's expected to retail at $9.99 given how high the Momir Avatar already is worth, and this might be a signal that Wizards is looking to support more Momir events outside of the 2-men queues.
Boltslinger contains 4 Goblin Guides, 4 Fireblast, and 1 Price of Progress. Nothing special to see here, maybe this will drop Fireblast prices a bit for Pauper but I doubt it, this doesn't seem to be very good value for money, unless it retails for like $9.99 too.
Exiler has a lot more valuable cards, check it out for yourself but its value for money depends on how much it retails for I guess. Given that most decks Wizards put out these days are $19.99, I doubt this will see much sales either.
Agree Paul... I would also suggest, if wasteland was in every cas cas deck, there would be crying that would bring babel to the ground.
http://jamuraa.com/pure/deck_new.php just in case you need the link.
An interesting comment. I wonder if the PTB really care that there IS such a barrier. To my mind they don't. I think they let things take their course pretty much unless there is a huge outcry and even then it's the 3 steps forward 5 steps back approach often enough. Wasteland is a staple only in Eternal formats so I am guessing their thinking is those who want to play those formats will continue to shell out the money as they have for the other staples (FoW, Dual Lands etc.) Because that is what has consistently happened in the past.
I'm really tired of Wasteland constantly inching up. It's a friggin uncommon! Are they just trying to intentionally mirror the paper values? Why has Swords to Plowshares (arguably the most prevalent Legacy creature spot-removal) been "reprinted" over and over, but Wasteland . . . nothing. Just the over-valued Tempest one. It's not like you can avoid needing them for mono-colored aggro decks let alone control. Someone at CQ had said that when StP was first released on MODO it was about $8, and now it's less than a buck. But it's less of a staple than Wasteland, so I really don't understand purposefully establishing these barriers to entry into a format. The trouble is, they let the situation get out of hand. They let some staples get to such a level that they become unreprintable without drawing scorn from all those who bought them at the inflated prices. Grrr. Sorry [/rant]
I am hoping they are not gold bordered, am afraid they might be... advantage of them in paper is that they can be still used as proxies around the kitchen table ... on here no...
but if you look at collection cards owned less than or equal to zero = there are tabs with new cards that are not gold bordered... so hey...
See i though the MODS(deck series) was something that had been mentioned previously. though it could have been for paper only, but they were releasing pre-made decks though that were supposedly good enough for someone to buy, open, and play in a FNM...could these be the same things? or did i just have a random dream one night?
Ah, the age old debate. I have my reasons for not jumping in until now. Heck, I'm not particularily diving into the fray personally, so I'll get Pete Jahn to make my point for me.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/fun-spikes-and-death-formats
The two goals, namely increasing attendance and inviting everyone to play top tier decks, are incompatible in a matured metagame for a fringe format.
Oh, never mind, think I found it in the forums. I'll figure this site out yet :)
Thanks!
OK, this is a little embarrassing, but can someone tell me how to put a decklist in an article, or at least point me in the direction of a document that explains this? Obviously I've been away awhile. I wanted to include a decklist with this article but I couldn't figure out the formatting.
Hey ya'll,
Great program built by Rincewind of Ashurst Mtg( http://ashhurstmtg.rpgwars.org/other-events-f16/) based out of New Zealand can be downloaded here: http://ashhurstmtg.rpgwars.org/other-events-f16/
It lets you search for cards by name very quickly, has the whole list as it is atm (make sure you check for updates as this program's list may become outdated) shows a picture of a card when teh card is selected, lets you build a deck (without sideboard distinction atm) and export that deck to forums like so: (Clearly doesnt work in this article response thread lol, works most places though) Decklist:
* 1 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Tradewinds&v=card&s=cname]AEther Tradewinds[/url]
* 4 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Akki+Underling&v=card&s=cname]Akki Underling[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Roar+of+the+Crowd&v=card&s=cname]Roar of the Crowd[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Teferi%27s+Puzzle+Box&v=card&s=cname]Teferi's Puzzle Box[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Zombie+Outlander&v=card&s=cname]Zombie Outlander[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Floodbringer&v=card&s=cname]Floodbringer[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Blazing+Salvo&v=card&s=cname]Blazing Salvo[/url]
* 3 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Blinding+Beam&v=card&s=cname]Blinding Beam[/url]
* 2 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Mutation&v=card&s=cname]AEther Mutation[/url]
* 2 X [url=http://magiccards.info/query?q=!AEther+Charge&v=card&s=cname]AEther Charge[/url]
It has a funtion to check the legality of an imported list (though I'm unsure atm of how to format that easilty)
All and all the program is very efficient and useful.
Thanks a ton Rincewind, very cool creation for us and very appreciated effort
Check it out
X-