I feel your pain BK. With most people having drafted the bejesus out of ZZW you're at a real disadvantage. Unfortunately I won't have time to fire out a ZZW primer at this time as I have too much on my plate at the moment. Primers take forever and a ZZW primer wouldn't be that heavily desired nowadays.
Lands are almost always 17 - occasionally you'll dip to 16 (but landfall makes this unlikely) and sometimes you'll play 18.
Black is traditionally the most overdrafted (because its the best)
Green is traditionally the most underdrafted (because that's how it is with most sets)
Lots of efficient little white or black creatures paired with removal should start getting you some round wins. It's an aggressive format and WB are very aggressive.
I've found drafting Allies is hit or miss - if you get like 4-6 grow allies, you're in business. If you get some crappy ally theme, you're F'd.
I'm pretty sure Majix was playing goblins, he tried to join an event that didn't fire the previous weekend and we ended up playing a match and that's what he was running.
To be fair I probably don't take Divine Offering over it either but mood depending I would consider it. White seems to be real strong when you're A) Drafting white infect when no one wants it or B) You get a healthy mix of Skyhunters and Glint Hawk Idols. I've had some absurd mono-white decks that just lose.
I can agree with all those (and yes just forgot Anatomist) except Divine Offering. Not sure why, but I'm not very high on that card. I probably just hate white.
I take all those things over Infuser. With his propensity to table I'll take Spread, GFTT, Flesh Eater Imp, Anatomist (you prob just forgot that one), and potentially Burn or even Divine Offering. Other than that I'm fine just taking Infuser first and seeing what happens.
Full of win. Although I never see Infusers 1/3 as often as you do, apparently.
What are some typical high-pick MBS cards you would take VI over? I assume still not over any bomb rare, Flamefiend, Conscience, Mortarpod or Corrupter?
Gilded Drake is much better, especially vs bounce, Llanowan, Cephalid Empress, and removal. Being easier to hard cast and costing less life to reanimate are other bonuses.
If you are going to be abusing the graveyard, and have FOW, Reanimator is a fun choice given the number of directions you can take with it now that Mystical Tutor is banned. Since it never needs to cast a 3 mana spell, it makes much better use of Daze than Intuition/Show and Tell decks, and definitely gets more out of cards like Careful Study than any other deck besides dredge. Being extremely resilient to GY hate other than Leyline of the Void is another plus.
I'm sure you already know most, if not all of that. I'd be playing these decks online myself if Force of Will wasn't obscene. Hopefully it gets reprinted or put in a Duel Deck online.
Oh, and another fantastic article/video feature, keep up the good work!
I should have mentioned Caleb as it was his list that started the forum discussion. This article was in queue before I had access to the UG Madness list from LA or I would have tested it instead.
I hadn't considered Gilded Drake and I do like the upside against SnT decks. However that has to be weighed against the ability to bring in Sower against other creature matchups. If your opponent is bringing in significant graveyard hate you are able to cut Bloodghasts for Sowers.
If your opponent casts SnT you are going to be putting Sower into play even if you couldn't see what their choice was.
Great write-ups on your awesome-looking new format. I don't think I'll be able to resist "splurging" on some uncommons to join up with this event.
Of all the interactions you've revealed in the past couple articles, the Squadron Hawk and Mistveil Plains struck me as the coolest find. How convenient that the Plains is actually a Plains that can be found with the common fetch lands. Interesting "silver bullet" I guess.
The green infect deck is also the most intriguing to me. I wonder, did you consider replacing Distortion Strike with (Prey's Vengeance) to continue the Rebound action? And your sideboard Mortarpods and Overruns seem like they'd go nicely with (Carrion Call) but that seems a little expensive and I think I'm starting to destroy your list :-) Keep 'em coming!
Also any chance you could write or point me in the direction of a good ZZW draft article?
I'm currently stuck drafting nothing but MSS drafts because it's the only format I understand at all (well I kind of know ROE but that's pretty irrelevant since it has so few money cards even though it is a good format for play value). Urza's Saga was about 10 years ago for me and I wasn't drafting at the time and all the blocks from that time period kind of blurred together in my mind and ZEN/WWK predates my return to Magic and I don't have a clue what any of the cards do other than the constructed playables that make me want to money draft the set. I don't know the basic archetypes that work in ZZW, the draft playables that aren't constructed playables or pretty much anything beyond the fact I'd like to draft a set with more money rares but not if I'm going to loose round 1 all the time.
The first decklist, BUGVine is Caleb's list from his last article on CFB. It is only a few cards off from that list. At least tell people where you got the deck.
UG Madness took a top 16 in LA past weekend.
Sower is worse than Gilded for a number of reasons; REB, Bounce, 4 mana over 2, an early SnT would allow you to SnT Fauna in untap use Fauna get Drake 3 mana only.
Show and Tell is still bugged online as it allows the opponent to see the card since it is NOT supposed to reveal the choice until both players have picked. That makes Sower or anything a 50/50 at best if they SnT in Progenitus or Sneak Attack, but not so online. I would advise against playing SnT decks until it is fixed despite my placings with SnT.
Great report, as always. One other thing that jumped out at me when scanning jeffdmk's list: the mana base. There are no fetchlands in sight and no color fixers to speak of. I'm guessing he started off with these, and then cut them when he found that running as few cipt lands as possible (just Depths) gave an extra burst of speed. Even with Groundswell in the list, something that loves to be triggered off a Terramorphic Expanse or Evolving Wilds you've been saving, it seems like a not-so-obvious correct decision. Double-innovation!
Sorry I don't have any but I can tell you this much: If I ever get any mana problems (even the slightest one), I automatically lose. Game 1 is most of the time a loss (though it's not a rule, and I win sometimes (but not always and not frequently)) but game 2 and 3 are much better.
WW in game 1 is almost always a loss (90% of the time) but it gets A LOT better after sideboarding. RDW and Green Infect are not so bad before sideboarding (because Go for the Throat isn't a dead card this time) and a bit better after sideboarding.
At the end it comes down to my ability to draw answers; Black Sun's Zenith being the most important and urgent one. Elspeth and Wurmcoil are other important cards which I have to get out as soon as possible.
But as I said, nothing matters if I have any mana issues. Then I lose no matter what I draw. But as we know, that is the typical problem of Control against Aggro in general.
I alluded to this point in my first post. Does the benefit of being able to draw an extra card sometimes outweigh the strain LoA may put on your manabase. Short answer, if you build your deck incorrectly, yes. Classic doesn't have Moxen or Ancestral (thank you for pointing that out for me) but we do have unrestricted Brainstorm and Gush (right back at ya!) which help both fixing, as well as restocking cards in your hand. There are other options to consider as well, such as simply running a few more colored sources if you plan on running LoA in multiples. Ponder is another unrestricted option to consider, and Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal both see marginal play and could help smooth out color fixing. It's easy to argue LoA can't see play because it hasn't yet, but that certainly doesn't mean it can't/won't see play at some point in time.
SuperDoomMonkey's deck gave me a lot of trouble. Between the 3 Blightnings by turn 5 in game 1, and the counters and burn in game 2, I had a hard time establishing control.
I'm looking forward to see if anything else new pops up this week. Next week sounds interesting.
Can't say I've ever tried that one out. Sounds interesting, and I imagine the cardpools are fairly similar. I'd imagine Clone Magic allows for more powerful commons and uncommons than Heirloom does though.
Watch it if you have time and see the deck against UB Control. To be honest, I never felt so confident against that deck before and I truly enjoyed that feeling :).
Nice job guys, this was the first podcast I had time to really listen to. Oh how I miss Dream Halls!!!!
You guys are gonna make me wanna start playing it again in Legacy.
Just found a different variant of my STD deck. This is a reminder for you to remind me later!!!
I feel your pain BK. With most people having drafted the bejesus out of ZZW you're at a real disadvantage. Unfortunately I won't have time to fire out a ZZW primer at this time as I have too much on my plate at the moment. Primers take forever and a ZZW primer wouldn't be that heavily desired nowadays.
Lands are almost always 17 - occasionally you'll dip to 16 (but landfall makes this unlikely) and sometimes you'll play 18.
Black is traditionally the most overdrafted (because its the best)
Green is traditionally the most underdrafted (because that's how it is with most sets)
Lots of efficient little white or black creatures paired with removal should start getting you some round wins. It's an aggressive format and WB are very aggressive.
I've found drafting Allies is hit or miss - if you get like 4-6 grow allies, you're in business. If you get some crappy ally theme, you're F'd.
You can message me online with other questions.
I'm pretty sure Majix was playing goblins, he tried to join an event that didn't fire the previous weekend and we ended up playing a match and that's what he was running.
To be fair I probably don't take Divine Offering over it either but mood depending I would consider it. White seems to be real strong when you're A) Drafting white infect when no one wants it or B) You get a healthy mix of Skyhunters and Glint Hawk Idols. I've had some absurd mono-white decks that just lose.
I can agree with all those (and yes just forgot Anatomist) except Divine Offering. Not sure why, but I'm not very high on that card. I probably just hate white.
Deck Wizard = Oath
Damping Engine = strange artifact combo that didn't seem to work. No idea what he was running as I countered his Tinker.
But now I will listen to the podcast first :)
April Fools is tomorrow, silly! Not today. Just kidding, nice article. If I had such tech I would never share it with the world. You are a saint.
I take all those things over Infuser. With his propensity to table I'll take Spread, GFTT, Flesh Eater Imp, Anatomist (you prob just forgot that one), and potentially Burn or even Divine Offering. Other than that I'm fine just taking Infuser first and seeing what happens.
Full of win. Although I never see Infusers 1/3 as often as you do, apparently.
What are some typical high-pick MBS cards you would take VI over? I assume still not over any bomb rare, Flamefiend, Conscience, Mortarpod or Corrupter?
Fantastic article as always. Intuition is so badass and versatile.
Gilded Drake is much better, especially vs bounce, Llanowan, Cephalid Empress, and removal. Being easier to hard cast and costing less life to reanimate are other bonuses.
If you are going to be abusing the graveyard, and have FOW, Reanimator is a fun choice given the number of directions you can take with it now that Mystical Tutor is banned. Since it never needs to cast a 3 mana spell, it makes much better use of Daze than Intuition/Show and Tell decks, and definitely gets more out of cards like Careful Study than any other deck besides dredge. Being extremely resilient to GY hate other than Leyline of the Void is another plus.
I'm sure you already know most, if not all of that. I'd be playing these decks online myself if Force of Will wasn't obscene. Hopefully it gets reprinted or put in a Duel Deck online.
Oh, and another fantastic article/video feature, keep up the good work!
I should have mentioned Caleb as it was his list that started the forum discussion. This article was in queue before I had access to the UG Madness list from LA or I would have tested it instead.
I hadn't considered Gilded Drake and I do like the upside against SnT decks. However that has to be weighed against the ability to bring in Sower against other creature matchups. If your opponent is bringing in significant graveyard hate you are able to cut Bloodghasts for Sowers.
If your opponent casts SnT you are going to be putting Sower into play even if you couldn't see what their choice was.
Great write-ups on your awesome-looking new format. I don't think I'll be able to resist "splurging" on some uncommons to join up with this event.
Of all the interactions you've revealed in the past couple articles, the Squadron Hawk and Mistveil Plains struck me as the coolest find. How convenient that the Plains is actually a Plains that can be found with the common fetch lands. Interesting "silver bullet" I guess.
The green infect deck is also the most intriguing to me. I wonder, did you consider replacing Distortion Strike with (Prey's Vengeance) to continue the Rebound action? And your sideboard Mortarpods and Overruns seem like they'd go nicely with (Carrion Call) but that seems a little expensive and I think I'm starting to destroy your list :-) Keep 'em coming!
Also any chance you could write or point me in the direction of a good ZZW draft article?
I'm currently stuck drafting nothing but MSS drafts because it's the only format I understand at all (well I kind of know ROE but that's pretty irrelevant since it has so few money cards even though it is a good format for play value). Urza's Saga was about 10 years ago for me and I wasn't drafting at the time and all the blocks from that time period kind of blurred together in my mind and ZEN/WWK predates my return to Magic and I don't have a clue what any of the cards do other than the constructed playables that make me want to money draft the set. I don't know the basic archetypes that work in ZZW, the draft playables that aren't constructed playables or pretty much anything beyond the fact I'd like to draft a set with more money rares but not if I'm going to loose round 1 all the time.
The first decklist, BUGVine is Caleb's list from his last article on CFB. It is only a few cards off from that list. At least tell people where you got the deck.
UG Madness took a top 16 in LA past weekend.
Sower is worse than Gilded for a number of reasons; REB, Bounce, 4 mana over 2, an early SnT would allow you to SnT Fauna in untap use Fauna get Drake 3 mana only.
Show and Tell is still bugged online as it allows the opponent to see the card since it is NOT supposed to reveal the choice until both players have picked. That makes Sower or anything a 50/50 at best if they SnT in Progenitus or Sneak Attack, but not so online. I would advise against playing SnT decks until it is fixed despite my placings with SnT.
Yeah definitely, Bob is pretty good I hear.
Great report, as always. One other thing that jumped out at me when scanning jeffdmk's list: the mana base. There are no fetchlands in sight and no color fixers to speak of. I'm guessing he started off with these, and then cut them when he found that running as few cipt lands as possible (just Depths) gave an extra burst of speed. Even with Groundswell in the list, something that loves to be triggered off a Terramorphic Expanse or Evolving Wilds you've been saving, it seems like a not-so-obvious correct decision. Double-innovation!
Bob seems the easiest way to keep up card count and use LoAlex.
Sorry I don't have any but I can tell you this much: If I ever get any mana problems (even the slightest one), I automatically lose. Game 1 is most of the time a loss (though it's not a rule, and I win sometimes (but not always and not frequently)) but game 2 and 3 are much better.
WW in game 1 is almost always a loss (90% of the time) but it gets A LOT better after sideboarding. RDW and Green Infect are not so bad before sideboarding (because Go for the Throat isn't a dead card this time) and a bit better after sideboarding.
At the end it comes down to my ability to draw answers; Black Sun's Zenith being the most important and urgent one. Elspeth and Wurmcoil are other important cards which I have to get out as soon as possible.
But as I said, nothing matters if I have any mana issues. Then I lose no matter what I draw. But as we know, that is the typical problem of Control against Aggro in general.
LE
I alluded to this point in my first post. Does the benefit of being able to draw an extra card sometimes outweigh the strain LoA may put on your manabase. Short answer, if you build your deck incorrectly, yes. Classic doesn't have Moxen or Ancestral (thank you for pointing that out for me) but we do have unrestricted Brainstorm and Gush (right back at ya!) which help both fixing, as well as restocking cards in your hand. There are other options to consider as well, such as simply running a few more colored sources if you plan on running LoA in multiples. Ponder is another unrestricted option to consider, and Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal both see marginal play and could help smooth out color fixing. It's easy to argue LoA can't see play because it hasn't yet, but that certainly doesn't mean it can't/won't see play at some point in time.
SuperDoomMonkey's deck gave me a lot of trouble. Between the 3 Blightnings by turn 5 in game 1, and the counters and burn in game 2, I had a hard time establishing control.
I'm looking forward to see if anything else new pops up this week. Next week sounds interesting.
Nice game, do you have any videos showing how it does against an agro deck?
Can't say I've ever tried that one out. Sounds interesting, and I imagine the cardpools are fairly similar. I'd imagine Clone Magic allows for more powerful commons and uncommons than Heirloom does though.
To be honest I don't know where the video is!!! It was right there where it supposed to be when I submitted the article. Strange...
Anyway, the link is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GsHHEBWUtE
Watch it if you have time and see the deck against UB Control. To be honest, I never felt so confident against that deck before and I truly enjoyed that feeling :).
LE