I dont understand why you are running 16 lands in sealed and the even bigger question is why you are running contested war zone. War zone is one of the worst cards you can run in limited. In constructed it can be good because you can make a deck where the opp is unlikely to ever have a chance to go on offense (tempered steel/goblins/kudoltha red) but in limited you are just letting your opp steal your land for minimal gain.
I have yet to lose a limited game where the opp play war zone, its just sooooo bad.
Starke of Rath doesn't work. It is a two part single trigger effect without a "Then" clause. You can cancel (Sundial, Time Stop, etc) the whole effect, but not just the switch allegience portion. Good if you use Starke and they sac in response, but not good enough to destroy something and just keep Starke. For that you need something like Witch, so you can flicker him with the ability on the stack and he's not in play to switch sides when it goes off.
Your description of how the Wasteland/Stripmine combo was vague, so for other readers, you are forcing the sac and preventing the search. Strip/Waste does not kill the land, but the end result is the same as if it had.
Stenchskipper will look for goblins on the Opp's turn too, so that doesn't work (except as a 1 time blocker)
Sneak Attack, corpse Dance and Kiki all have the same "next end step" clause, so they should be able to be canceled once on the stack. But for another way to abuse them, try Teferi's Veil. Attack, phase out, phase in and attack again, rinse and repeat. Also works with Ball Lightning and the like - and the creatures can't be WoGed.
One thing the classification missed above. An effect can check the next end step, or it could give the creature/token/permanent the text of "at the beginning..." and I think there is a slightly different effect between the two. Granted, if the text is being added to a permanent, it shoudl be templated like Ball Lightning and not use the word "next". It'll either be "At the begining of your end step" or "at the beginning of the end step" depending on if it triggers only on your turn or on every turn.
After talking to Prosak , he said he would have def ran more Twisted Image, so that bit was from post tournament discussion.
If i had to make a partial list of what I'm worried against if if I'm JUST playing Ascension.
- Into the Roil
- Any Nature's claim type spell
- O-Ring
- Acidic Slime
Spell Pierce really only takes care of one of those, Dispel takes 2 slots, and I'd have to have a Mana Leak or some sort of hard counter for the Slime.
If I'm running the combo (board or intertwined), I think the counterspell suite could possibly change.
Game day decision is probably the best choice, but I'd still think Pierce is the more popular and correct choice.
Prosaks and Hagers lists had 1 twisted image together, yet your lists both ran 3. What are you trying to exploit here and would you be better served using a few of those slots for a pierce/dispel split?
The reason the Splinter Twin lists run Dispel is that most of the spells that disrupt the combo are instants...Which is true here as well. I am not sure, but I would go with Spell Pierce personally. It is a soft counter that people can play around, but we kill pretty quickly after Ascension gets active.
I would be happy to test. I have RDW and Splinter Twin built for a partial gauntlet.
Anyway, I like this. I won a 4-3-2-2 last night (finally) with a wonky GB infect deck with Throne of Geth, Caress of Phyrexia (killed someone with this), Putrefax, Flesh Eater Imp, Spread the Sickness, and Morbid Plunder.
I do love your continuation of this series. I look forward to it every week, and if there were a "judge hall of fame" you and Ingrid would get my vote.
Mike Flores is a tricky add for me. Osyp actually has the points to back up his play, whereas Mike does not. I think Mike is a great strategist and deck designer, but he has a long way to go in terms of HoF status.
I agree Osyp is on the fringe. At least he never had any scandals (Maher).
Chapin probably deserves it too. I just think that I am averse to voting for him because of the rap album. lol.
Creatures (18)
4 Death's Shadow - o.O/OMG for B
4 Hunted Horror - 7/7 Trample for BB
2 Hunted Lammasu - 5/5 Flier for 2WW
4 Shiekmaw - Doom Blade on 3/2 Fear legs
4 Simian Spirit Guide - Mana acceleration
Other Spells (22)
3 Dark Tutelage - Keep those cards coming! Feed the Shadow!
4 Final Fortune - Put this on a stick.
4 Isochron Scepter - Stick FF on this.
3 Phyrexian Unlife - Cuz sometimes ya just gotta be dead to win.
4 Sign in Blood - More cards, please! Feed the Shadow!
4 Sundial of the Infinite - Tick... tick... tick... tick...
Lands (20)
8 Fetches
4 Godless Shrine
2 Leechridden Swamp - It's land type is Swamp, so it can be searched out w/fetches.
6 Swamp
---
(Scepter/FF) + Sundial = Infinite turns
With "Hunted" or Evoke creatures, simply end the turn before the opponent's creatures, or sacrifice, resolve.
You don't care about fetches & shocklands & signing yourself; once you're below 13 life, Death's Shadow get's bigger. You should be at infinite turns stage by now anyway. Besides, you have Unlife.
The problem with votingfor someone mainly on the basis of their non-play contributions is, how far do you take that? Would you every consider Mike Flores for the HoF? He has been writing since 1995, has been on every website of note, and has some pro points. His play skill is nowhere near good or consistent enough, but his non-lay contributions are insane. He has designed a lot of decks that have won Pro Tours and defined metagames, and written articles like "The Philosohpy of Fire." However, he is not HoF material, unless they create a "special services" award.
I first met Osyp at Worlds in San Fran, and he was an impressive pressence. However, someone like Alex Schvartsman has all the same credentials, but moreso. For that matter, so does Chapin.
I'm not saying I have ruled Osyp out. That slot is still open, and he is a possibilty.
Fair enough - like I said, I was on my hiatus when Osyp came into his own, I think he had just q'd for his first PT when I had my kid so thats why I'm a little unclear on what made him HOF worthy :)
Thanks for reading!! I am already running 4 Mana Leak main in all versions - the question is, what should be the "other" counterspell (in the 2x slot) - spell pierce? dispel? etc? I think in some cases it could be a "game day" decision based on live metagame, who know? :)
He was an innovator during the nightmarish first Mirrodin Ravager-Affinity" block. He won two Block Constructed pro tours during a time when everyone was playing homogeneous Affinity lists, his big innovation was Aether Vial which broke the deck even more. His writing was a constant breath of fresh air during a time when people were quitting en masse. He also has 277 lifetime pro points, which is twice what Pikula has (to be fair, they did increase the amount of points they were giving to participants after his time).
But that is why. Osyp is awesome, and he still does well when he plays.
You demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of each plan. While I may not agree that it "should" be Dispel MD (I would propose Mana Leak- a little more catch-all). I also agree that Burst Lightning Should be a 4-of.
I respect those opinions and thoughts - but look at baseball for instance, there were plenty of great players who brought great charisma to the table, but are they HOF worthy? My personal opinion is that we're going to have too many players in the HOF vs making it the exclusive membership its supposed to be.
Not knowing the full scope, I'd like to know what you consider Osyp's innovations to the game to be? What innovations do you consider to be Hall of Fame worthy?
I can jump on the Pikula wagon though, he was one of the early legends (Team Deadguy) who really brought respect, and great play at a time when the game was still forming like a baby in a mother.
Chris Pikula may not have the record. But he was an early champion of trying to eliminate cheating (although, look where thet got him *cough* Guillame-gate*cough*Saito*). He did have high profile finishes as well.
Osyp brought humor and innovation to the game when it was running a bit stale. He has contributed to raising the bar competitively. Okay, this one is a personal bias. You caught me. He just wrote such funny articles that I have a soft spot for this guy...
Thank you for asking my opinion, sir. Most of the time I just offer it, unsolicited :)
the Chapin wagon...I've read his book, seen him play, talked with him a bit about the game and all signs point to him being HOF quality. Another PT top 8 is in his future, I don't have any doubt about that. Even without it, I think you have to consider percent of the population of all players that know these names as well. Look at the sports HOF's, sure there are many players who even die hard fans don't know or have heard of, but the majority of the people in the HOF in each sport are pretty much household names to fans of that sport.
I have been doing more review and consideration. So far, my lists is:
Shuhei Nakamura
Steve OMS
Anton Jonsson
William Jensen
(undecided)
The people above, plus Pat Chapin. His love of the game is incredible, and his contributions outside the game are impressive. However, I really would have liked to see another PT Top 8 - and a win would be better.
Fortunately, I don't have to send in my ballot until after GenCon.
In all honesty, I'm a big fan of OMS and Huey for the HOF. I've seen Huey play from when he was very young at TJ Collectibles and as he grew up, his grasp of the game, his pure skill was amazing. He was one of few magic players I could watch and actually get better just by watching him play and seeing how his mind works. Granted his career wasnt as long as others, but the HOF is for the best players and he is among them imho.
I dont understand why you are running 16 lands in sealed and the even bigger question is why you are running contested war zone. War zone is one of the worst cards you can run in limited. In constructed it can be good because you can make a deck where the opp is unlikely to ever have a chance to go on offense (tempered steel/goblins/kudoltha red) but in limited you are just letting your opp steal your land for minimal gain.
I have yet to lose a limited game where the opp play war zone, its just sooooo bad.
I agree. The payouts leave little to be desired. And the promo is fringe playable this time. I wish it were the Vengeful Pharaoh.
I say this at every prerelease online -
DONT DO IT! wotc is ripping you off and the only way they will stop is if people stop joining. Take a stand and let wotc know that it is not ok.
Starke of Rath doesn't work. It is a two part single trigger effect without a "Then" clause. You can cancel (Sundial, Time Stop, etc) the whole effect, but not just the switch allegience portion. Good if you use Starke and they sac in response, but not good enough to destroy something and just keep Starke. For that you need something like Witch, so you can flicker him with the ability on the stack and he's not in play to switch sides when it goes off.
Your description of how the Wasteland/Stripmine combo was vague, so for other readers, you are forcing the sac and preventing the search. Strip/Waste does not kill the land, but the end result is the same as if it had.
Stenchskipper will look for goblins on the Opp's turn too, so that doesn't work (except as a 1 time blocker)
Sneak Attack, corpse Dance and Kiki all have the same "next end step" clause, so they should be able to be canceled once on the stack. But for another way to abuse them, try Teferi's Veil. Attack, phase out, phase in and attack again, rinse and repeat. Also works with Ball Lightning and the like - and the creatures can't be WoGed.
One thing the classification missed above. An effect can check the next end step, or it could give the creature/token/permanent the text of "at the beginning..." and I think there is a slightly different effect between the two. Granted, if the text is being added to a permanent, it shoudl be templated like Ball Lightning and not use the word "next". It'll either be "At the begining of your end step" or "at the beginning of the end step" depending on if it triggers only on your turn or on every turn.
All in all a very nice and thorough article.
V/R
HK
After talking to Prosak , he said he would have def ran more Twisted Image, so that bit was from post tournament discussion.
If i had to make a partial list of what I'm worried against if if I'm JUST playing Ascension.
- Into the Roil
- Any Nature's claim type spell
- O-Ring
- Acidic Slime
Spell Pierce really only takes care of one of those, Dispel takes 2 slots, and I'd have to have a Mana Leak or some sort of hard counter for the Slime.
If I'm running the combo (board or intertwined), I think the counterspell suite could possibly change.
It's def requiring some thinking heh :)
Game day decision is probably the best choice, but I'd still think Pierce is the more popular and correct choice.
Prosaks and Hagers lists had 1 twisted image together, yet your lists both ran 3. What are you trying to exploit here and would you be better served using a few of those slots for a pierce/dispel split?
The card is deceptively powerful. Good job, sir.
The reason the Splinter Twin lists run Dispel is that most of the spells that disrupt the combo are instants...Which is true here as well. I am not sure, but I would go with Spell Pierce personally. It is a soft counter that people can play around, but we kill pretty quickly after Ascension gets active.
I would be happy to test. I have RDW and Splinter Twin built for a partial gauntlet.
/add buddy tpup?
Man- you had 3 Grim Afflictions passed to you.
Anyway, I like this. I won a 4-3-2-2 last night (finally) with a wonky GB infect deck with Throne of Geth, Caress of Phyrexia (killed someone with this), Putrefax, Flesh Eater Imp, Spread the Sickness, and Morbid Plunder.
It was awesome, and it ended a bad run for me.
Keep it up, sir.
I do love your continuation of this series. I look forward to it every week, and if there were a "judge hall of fame" you and Ingrid would get my vote.
Mike Flores is a tricky add for me. Osyp actually has the points to back up his play, whereas Mike does not. I think Mike is a great strategist and deck designer, but he has a long way to go in terms of HoF status.
I agree Osyp is on the fringe. At least he never had any scandals (Maher).
Chapin probably deserves it too. I just think that I am averse to voting for him because of the rap album. lol.
Creatures (18)
4 Death's Shadow - o.O/OMG for B
4 Hunted Horror - 7/7 Trample for BB
2 Hunted Lammasu - 5/5 Flier for 2WW
4 Shiekmaw - Doom Blade on 3/2 Fear legs
4 Simian Spirit Guide - Mana acceleration
Other Spells (22)
3 Dark Tutelage - Keep those cards coming! Feed the Shadow!
4 Final Fortune - Put this on a stick.
4 Isochron Scepter - Stick FF on this.
3 Phyrexian Unlife - Cuz sometimes ya just gotta be dead to win.
4 Sign in Blood - More cards, please! Feed the Shadow!
4 Sundial of the Infinite - Tick... tick... tick... tick...
Lands (20)
8 Fetches
4 Godless Shrine
2 Leechridden Swamp - It's land type is Swamp, so it can be searched out w/fetches.
6 Swamp
---
(Scepter/FF) + Sundial = Infinite turns
With "Hunted" or Evoke creatures, simply end the turn before the opponent's creatures, or sacrifice, resolve.
You don't care about fetches & shocklands & signing yourself; once you're below 13 life, Death's Shadow get's bigger. You should be at infinite turns stage by now anyway. Besides, you have Unlife.
The problem with votingfor someone mainly on the basis of their non-play contributions is, how far do you take that? Would you every consider Mike Flores for the HoF? He has been writing since 1995, has been on every website of note, and has some pro points. His play skill is nowhere near good or consistent enough, but his non-lay contributions are insane. He has designed a lot of decks that have won Pro Tours and defined metagames, and written articles like "The Philosohpy of Fire." However, he is not HoF material, unless they create a "special services" award.
I first met Osyp at Worlds in San Fran, and he was an impressive pressence. However, someone like Alex Schvartsman has all the same credentials, but moreso. For that matter, so does Chapin.
I'm not saying I have ruled Osyp out. That slot is still open, and he is a possibilty.
Five votes is not enough!
Fair enough - like I said, I was on my hiatus when Osyp came into his own, I think he had just q'd for his first PT when I had my kid so thats why I'm a little unclear on what made him HOF worthy :)
Thanks for reading!! I am already running 4 Mana Leak main in all versions - the question is, what should be the "other" counterspell (in the 2x slot) - spell pierce? dispel? etc? I think in some cases it could be a "game day" decision based on live metagame, who know? :)
He was an innovator during the nightmarish first Mirrodin Ravager-Affinity" block. He won two Block Constructed pro tours during a time when everyone was playing homogeneous Affinity lists, his big innovation was Aether Vial which broke the deck even more. His writing was a constant breath of fresh air during a time when people were quitting en masse. He also has 277 lifetime pro points, which is twice what Pikula has (to be fair, they did increase the amount of points they were giving to participants after his time).
But that is why. Osyp is awesome, and he still does well when he plays.
That's why.
You demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of each plan. While I may not agree that it "should" be Dispel MD (I would propose Mana Leak- a little more catch-all). I also agree that Burst Lightning Should be a 4-of.
Good Primer.
Apaulogy
I respect those opinions and thoughts - but look at baseball for instance, there were plenty of great players who brought great charisma to the table, but are they HOF worthy? My personal opinion is that we're going to have too many players in the HOF vs making it the exclusive membership its supposed to be.
Not knowing the full scope, I'd like to know what you consider Osyp's innovations to the game to be? What innovations do you consider to be Hall of Fame worthy?
I can jump on the Pikula wagon though, he was one of the early legends (Team Deadguy) who really brought respect, and great play at a time when the game was still forming like a baby in a mother.
Great stuff. A weird parallel to standard magic in a week where a PTQ also had 8 different T8 decks. Did banning JtMS improve pauper's metagame ;-)
Chris a.k.a. Meddling Mage Pikula
Osyp
and its not even close.
Chris Pikula may not have the record. But he was an early champion of trying to eliminate cheating (although, look where thet got him *cough* Guillame-gate*cough*Saito*). He did have high profile finishes as well.
Osyp brought humor and innovation to the game when it was running a bit stale. He has contributed to raising the bar competitively. Okay, this one is a personal bias. You caught me. He just wrote such funny articles that I have a soft spot for this guy...
Thank you for asking my opinion, sir. Most of the time I just offer it, unsolicited :)
the Chapin wagon...I've read his book, seen him play, talked with him a bit about the game and all signs point to him being HOF quality. Another PT top 8 is in his future, I don't have any doubt about that. Even without it, I think you have to consider percent of the population of all players that know these names as well. Look at the sports HOF's, sure there are many players who even die hard fans don't know or have heard of, but the majority of the people in the HOF in each sport are pretty much household names to fans of that sport.
Great article as usual, see you at GENCON!
I have been doing more review and consideration. So far, my lists is:
Shuhei Nakamura
Steve OMS
Anton Jonsson
William Jensen
(undecided)
The people above, plus Pat Chapin. His love of the game is incredible, and his contributions outside the game are impressive. However, I really would have liked to see another PT Top 8 - and a win would be better.
Fortunately, I don't have to send in my ballot until after GenCon.
In all honesty, I'm a big fan of OMS and Huey for the HOF. I've seen Huey play from when he was very young at TJ Collectibles and as he grew up, his grasp of the game, his pure skill was amazing. He was one of few magic players I could watch and actually get better just by watching him play and seeing how his mind works. Granted his career wasnt as long as others, but the HOF is for the best players and he is among them imho.
Thanks!
I have a Tolarian Academy too that I picked up in a trade a few weeks ago. I plan on dumping it as soon as I get to GENCON next week!
Speaking of GENCON, any fellow Pure people going?