Thanks for promoting the Classic League and all the focus you put on Classic as a format, but I just wanted to point out the odd juxtaposition of your comment, "This is pretty nice for players, like me, who don’t have the blocks of time necessary even for DEs", with the previous section of the article where you talk about having completed two sealeds and 3 drafts of M2012. I understand that you can jump in a draft queue whenever, while the DEs are at set times, but I just find it odd because a Classic DE takes 2 to 2.5 hours generally, which is almost always less time than a draft or a sealed unless you lose in the first round.
I don't know... every time I see a looter in an M12 draft I don't feel the same urge to get one; in a format where the curve and aggro matters so much I don't feel like discarding a card is a good thing, unless, of course you're discarding extra lands, dead cards or you're screwed and digging for lands but that is pretty much conditional and in all of those situations I think I'd rather have a ponder or even a divination than a looter.
I found myself in many cases in which you are not willing to part from any card in your hand and even in the case you rip a "better version" of a card you have in hand you'll probably want to run both instead of chosing between the two.
Especially since this is a faster format, doing almost nothing hoping to draw something for more than a couple of turns is likely to be pretty bad for you and unless you get the nut draws afterwards you will most likely be in a very bad shape.
Ponder is SO much better in a fast format than looter is. Best case scenario is like a looter with the draws in the correct order, worst case scenario is a turn worth of looter BUT with the latter you would have spent the first two turns discarding the card you drew with it (the cards you shuffled away).
Yup, agree with most of that list, nothing drags out a game like an endless thopter assembly mirror, especially with Gifts/Academy in the card pool. I don't get the hatred for Ancestral, especially since Bloodbraid Elf into Ancestral seems like a sweet deck, and that card is actually terrible late game outside of control mirrors.
Why can't we have Chrome Mox if DD and Hypergenesis are gone? Those were the two biggest offenders. All in red is annoying and loves that card but it is also terrible, so there's that.
I would have personally liked to have seen Jitte, since lifegain seems pretty relevant in a set where you are going to constantly shock yourself.
What I don't get is how they can pick and choose the powerful format defining 2 drops. Stoneforge and Bitterblossom are bad, but Tarmogoyf and Bob are OK? I agree, it would have been easier to ban Spellstutter Sprite, blossom is useful elsewhere, like token decks.
The only card I somewhat understand that's new on the list is Stoneforge since a ton of decks would just run 4x SFM, 1 Batterskull, Fire and Ice, Feast and Famine, and either no third target or whatever other sword you like. I think it isn't overpowered in a format with cards like O-ring, Pulse, Putrefy and 1 mana 3/3's, but that's me.
@Augur 100 percent agree, the hate on Jace is ridiculous he wasn't even a 4-of in the majority of decks running him in Extended, much less Modern. They banned him because he shows up as a 2-of in Vintage, when Slash Panther is a 4-of in Shops. Guess I should have taken him higher in my NPH drafts.
I think people need to quit trying to compare modern to extended. We've got more then quite a few new tools since the old extended tournaments.
Just to give an example Elf combo is WAY more dangerous then it ever was in ext with the additions of Vengevine and GSZ.
However i agree they went completely overboard with the bannings.
here's a the list and my quick opinion of each.
Ancestral Vision -seriously this was even on the radar at all?
Mental Misstep - once again i get a moment of WTF.
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle - Boys an Girls this isn't EXT get over it. If you get killed by a combo on turn 6 then i guess congrats are in order for your opponent.
However if you really want to ban the combo and not the deck just ban Scapeshift you'd get less people crying foul and leave what some consider a fun but fair deck in the meta.
Bitterblossom - Wow another WTF moment here...guys this isn't the ext season you just went through or the old standard. I'm amazed that this was even on the radar. I'f you wanted fae to be neutered, ban spellstutter not a card which can single handedly produce its own fair, fun, and playable archtype.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor- Honestly between this and the next card on the list I'm just sick of seeing people hate on them so much when yes they're powerful but no not so powerful is such a diverse format that they will wreck it.
Stoneforge Mystic- While undoubtedly powerful and abused in legacy people need to remember that this isn't legacy, this isn't the projected ext season. This format doesn't have FoW to help back up the U/W powerhouse and the format isn't so slow that a turn 3 batterskull turn 4 JTMS equates to gg.
Ancient Den
Great Furnace
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers - Affinity while a powerful mechanic and very linear it's not the boogeyman its made out to be. I don't personally believe I've personally not lost a single match to this while playing zoo. There are just too many ways to wreck a deck that overloads on artifacts. Also if Stoneforge is left in the format you'll find that Affinity and Stoneforge will suffer splashed hate from people focusing on one or the other.
Golgari Grave-Troll
Dread Return - On both of these...*rolls eyes* Just ban Bridge, leave these two alone and be done with it already.
Chrome Mox - I understand the tempo issues this can create but we're talking about a new eternal format here so let's take the kiddy gloves off While this card can be powerful in the right archtypes it's hardly broken.
Umezawa's Jitte- Powerful? Yes absolutely. Overly so in this format? ...very debatable Just look at the data from all the overextended tournaments and you'll see while yes this card has been used it's hardly the back breaker that it's made out to be. I personally feel that this card just suffers more from a bad rep then the level of a threat it poses. Yes i'm VERY aware how this card can take over creature wars but games these days hardly devolve into who has jitte just wins.
Dark Depths - 20/20 flying indestructible possible on turn 2 yeah..... I think we all understand and agree why this got the axe.
Skullclamp - A pretty obvious banning. This card over time can provide silly amounts of incremental advantage but honestly I'd rather face this then the next card.
Glimpse of Nature - If clamp proving 2 cards for mana + sacrificing some board position giving incremental advantage over several turns is silly good then what do we call drawing your entire deck in one turn? O.o
Hypergenesis - Some might try to argue this card as somewhat fair due to it being so fragile but seriously it was just flat unfun to play against unless you were control. Add in Urabrask and now your deck doesn't have to have a god hand to win on turn 3...
Sword of the Meek - gain 1 life + 1 1/1 flier per mana spent? YES please! Seriously though joking aside it's pretty easy to understand why this 4 mana 2 card combo got the ban hammer applied.
Sensei's Divining Top - I HATE the reason it got banned but i happen to understand it. Insane number of draws during swiss rounds skewing possible/probable results and lengthening tournament times is fun for anyone involved.
Online this isn't as much of a problem due to the chess timer but unfortunately they have not adopted that for paper tournaments and will not due to the hassles it would create.
Valakut is kind of bad for us. Oracle really gives us fits. Most versions I have seen are running them over Solemn, which I think is right due to all the blue.
I also find pod to be pretty rough at times, especially when they get slime chains, the multiple copies happening via Metamorphs and Illusions...
I concur. This encapsulates in a nutshell how I feel about tolerance/intolerance. It is a dangerous thing when societies become so rigid that intolerance is more the norm.
i wonder how long will it take people to finally understand that brad is an average player who had a lucky year. comparing him to lsv or paulo is just a joke
No worries it wasn't the only thing I got out of the article, but on the same note while I do understand that the lifestyle is in the minority.
to use your quote "It simply isn't normal, nor should it be. Then again, since when are Magic players normal."
Illustrates my next point perfectly.
While it and magic are both not normal or what most people do, neither activity is illegal, and neither should be looked upon with disdain by others just because it's not what they think is proper.
Valakut should have been banned in standard a long time ago, or been errata'd to Legendary. Hilariously it is now considered too good for Modern, but A-OK in standard, because ??????
For the record, I'm aware it doesn't top 8 an insane amount, but that's only because people hate playing it due to the variance and mirror, it destroys dailies regularly and is one of the toughest matchups for UW/UB control. It used to be sometimes they just didn't have the Titan. Now with GSZ and Summoning Trap, they always have it.
I have seen a good deal of UB control around lately. It was good to see the deck in action from the other side for a change. I join you in the disliking of Valakut. I have always had a tough time with the match up, but seeing someone skilled playing against it, regardless of the outcomes, does help quite a bit. Thanks for the great vids again! Keep them coming.
It's been a few years since I've wander in Columbus as most of my family is near Findlay/Bowling Green areas. Either way, I know what collaring is, I understand the point, but I still disagree with it. I still feel it is disrespectful to parade a woman around like she is some kind of dog on a leash regardless of the fact that she agrees to it and is submissive for it.
It is my opinion and you can't convince me otherwise. Is this really the only thing you took out of the article? I'd hope that the point of my article was about Magic, not to provoke some kind of history/wiki lesson on the ins and outs of this type of behavoir.
I can assure you right or wrong, this type of "lifestyle" is in the minority. It's one thing to do it in your social circle, it's another to do it in public. There were tons of small kids around, try explaining to them why that girl is wearing a leash and why Mommy isn't.
It simply isn't normal, nor should it be. Then again, since when are Magic players normal.
I agree with everything but the Looter: he's very, very good. Especially in UB and if you can get one or two Gravediggers. Otherwise he's good filtering or even just one extra target for your opponent's removal (and that may save your Titan from a Doom Blade, for example).
Very nice videos, thanks for posting them. While your deck doesn't contain anything uber-valuable it seems like it did very good! You've been lucky two or three times, especially with ponder, but that's part of the game. Good job! :-)
Well, if you see my Limited rating you will learn that I'm not the best player to ask for directions as I'm basically writing here to ask for that myself :)
Nonetheless I'm more than willing to share my thoughts on this format I've got so far:
First and foremost, M12 is aggro. Period. You can still build the control deck but it really must be THE NUTS to get there.
Only kinds of control that still work like a charm are counters and tempo but the first most likely has to be aimed at your opponent aggro instead of utility spells (unless you know he has something big like Fireball). I would still counter a shock from times to times if it messes with MY aggro but I wouldn't do it at the speed of light as before.
I would still counter Overrun like there is no tomorrow if given the opportunity.
I personally don't mind having a couple of counters in my deck in case I draft blue.
Tappers are very good, maybe not first pick material but in an aggro format tapping their best beater is usually game-turning. Frost Titan, Frost Breath, Gideon's Lawkeeper and the artifact crown (in that order IMHO) are high pick material (the Titan first pick, of course).
Aether Adept is a powerhouse because is both aggro and tempo, insta-pick if you are in blue unless there are bombs still there.
Removal is still high priority but if you can manage to run an endless stream of creatures it becomes secondary. This does not apply to Chandra's Outrage or the removal on legs (the white Archon).
The same is true for card advantage; it's usually better to play another dude than a Divination and give a time walk to your opponent unless you can do both. Merfolk Looter is a good card but his pick priority in my opinion fell down a little.
This does not apply to the insane sphinx of uthuun but that's kinda obvious.
Bloodthirst: there are far too many enablers out there to worry too much about them; just one word of advice: don't waste removal on the enablers if you're against black (unless you're also running black and your removal is Doom Blade), most of them can be killed by the shock or sorin's thirst you're about to waste on the enabler. Just keep in mind that there is the vampire too and be prepared.
If you're running against red, use removal on the enablers because both of the big bloodthirst guys are bigger than your removal, unless you're running doom blades and oblivion rings in which case scrap that and use them on the big guys.
Hexproof is not that big a deal in a format that relies on trades unless it's paired with evasion (Aven Fleetwing) or it's just absurd like the Dungrove Elder. But then again there is nothing you can do about them, be prepared to deal with them, the first is not impossible to race with but the second has to be chumped/traded as soon as possible.
Ramp is nice if it comes with aggro (Llanowar Elves or Solemn Simulacrum), otherwise is mostly a blank unless you're top heavy like my second draft.
Flying is still a big concern.
Tutors are good if you have more than one bomb, otherwise is mostly a blank but that was true in M11 too.
EDIT: I forgot Gravedigger. He is aggro that returns dead aggro to deck. It's a king in this format; If you ever draft 2 (or more) it's ground-lock time.
I may have said some obvious and some debatable things but that's mostly what it comes to mind to me when I draft; feel free to correct me.
Thanks for promoting the Classic League and all the focus you put on Classic as a format, but I just wanted to point out the odd juxtaposition of your comment, "This is pretty nice for players, like me, who don’t have the blocks of time necessary even for DEs", with the previous section of the article where you talk about having completed two sealeds and 3 drafts of M2012. I understand that you can jump in a draft queue whenever, while the DEs are at set times, but I just find it odd because a Classic DE takes 2 to 2.5 hours generally, which is almost always less time than a draft or a sealed unless you lose in the first round.
I don't know... every time I see a looter in an M12 draft I don't feel the same urge to get one; in a format where the curve and aggro matters so much I don't feel like discarding a card is a good thing, unless, of course you're discarding extra lands, dead cards or you're screwed and digging for lands but that is pretty much conditional and in all of those situations I think I'd rather have a ponder or even a divination than a looter.
I found myself in many cases in which you are not willing to part from any card in your hand and even in the case you rip a "better version" of a card you have in hand you'll probably want to run both instead of chosing between the two.
Especially since this is a faster format, doing almost nothing hoping to draw something for more than a couple of turns is likely to be pretty bad for you and unless you get the nut draws afterwards you will most likely be in a very bad shape.
Ponder is SO much better in a fast format than looter is. Best case scenario is like a looter with the draws in the correct order, worst case scenario is a turn worth of looter BUT with the latter you would have spent the first two turns discarding the card you drew with it (the cards you shuffled away).
I think wotc's goal was to ban anything remotely possible to be too strong. But some cards were a surprise to me as well.
got banned in modern because of scapeshift and omen.
Just thinking, I forgot to say anything about from the vaults EDH Commanders. Anyone else find this set a little uninspired?
@Ranth
Yup, agree with most of that list, nothing drags out a game like an endless thopter assembly mirror, especially with Gifts/Academy in the card pool. I don't get the hatred for Ancestral, especially since Bloodbraid Elf into Ancestral seems like a sweet deck, and that card is actually terrible late game outside of control mirrors.
Why can't we have Chrome Mox if DD and Hypergenesis are gone? Those were the two biggest offenders. All in red is annoying and loves that card but it is also terrible, so there's that.
I would have personally liked to have seen Jitte, since lifegain seems pretty relevant in a set where you are going to constantly shock yourself.
What I don't get is how they can pick and choose the powerful format defining 2 drops. Stoneforge and Bitterblossom are bad, but Tarmogoyf and Bob are OK? I agree, it would have been easier to ban Spellstutter Sprite, blossom is useful elsewhere, like token decks.
The only card I somewhat understand that's new on the list is Stoneforge since a ton of decks would just run 4x SFM, 1 Batterskull, Fire and Ice, Feast and Famine, and either no third target or whatever other sword you like. I think it isn't overpowered in a format with cards like O-ring, Pulse, Putrefy and 1 mana 3/3's, but that's me.
@Augur 100 percent agree, the hate on Jace is ridiculous he wasn't even a 4-of in the majority of decks running him in Extended, much less Modern. They banned him because he shows up as a 2-of in Vintage, when Slash Panther is a 4-of in Shops. Guess I should have taken him higher in my NPH drafts.
At least let us have Jace, you can have stoneforge if you give Jace back to us! :P
I think people need to quit trying to compare modern to extended. We've got more then quite a few new tools since the old extended tournaments.
Just to give an example Elf combo is WAY more dangerous then it ever was in ext with the additions of Vengevine and GSZ.
However i agree they went completely overboard with the bannings.
here's a the list and my quick opinion of each.
Ancestral Vision -seriously this was even on the radar at all?
Mental Misstep - once again i get a moment of WTF.
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle - Boys an Girls this isn't EXT get over it. If you get killed by a combo on turn 6 then i guess congrats are in order for your opponent.
However if you really want to ban the combo and not the deck just ban Scapeshift you'd get less people crying foul and leave what some consider a fun but fair deck in the meta.
Bitterblossom - Wow another WTF moment here...guys this isn't the ext season you just went through or the old standard. I'm amazed that this was even on the radar. I'f you wanted fae to be neutered, ban spellstutter not a card which can single handedly produce its own fair, fun, and playable archtype.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor- Honestly between this and the next card on the list I'm just sick of seeing people hate on them so much when yes they're powerful but no not so powerful is such a diverse format that they will wreck it.
Stoneforge Mystic- While undoubtedly powerful and abused in legacy people need to remember that this isn't legacy, this isn't the projected ext season. This format doesn't have FoW to help back up the U/W powerhouse and the format isn't so slow that a turn 3 batterskull turn 4 JTMS equates to gg.
Ancient Den
Great Furnace
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers - Affinity while a powerful mechanic and very linear it's not the boogeyman its made out to be. I don't personally believe I've personally not lost a single match to this while playing zoo. There are just too many ways to wreck a deck that overloads on artifacts. Also if Stoneforge is left in the format you'll find that Affinity and Stoneforge will suffer splashed hate from people focusing on one or the other.
Golgari Grave-Troll
Dread Return - On both of these...*rolls eyes* Just ban Bridge, leave these two alone and be done with it already.
Chrome Mox - I understand the tempo issues this can create but we're talking about a new eternal format here so let's take the kiddy gloves off While this card can be powerful in the right archtypes it's hardly broken.
Umezawa's Jitte- Powerful? Yes absolutely. Overly so in this format? ...very debatable Just look at the data from all the overextended tournaments and you'll see while yes this card has been used it's hardly the back breaker that it's made out to be. I personally feel that this card just suffers more from a bad rep then the level of a threat it poses. Yes i'm VERY aware how this card can take over creature wars but games these days hardly devolve into who has jitte just wins.
Dark Depths - 20/20 flying indestructible possible on turn 2 yeah..... I think we all understand and agree why this got the axe.
Skullclamp - A pretty obvious banning. This card over time can provide silly amounts of incremental advantage but honestly I'd rather face this then the next card.
Glimpse of Nature - If clamp proving 2 cards for mana + sacrificing some board position giving incremental advantage over several turns is silly good then what do we call drawing your entire deck in one turn? O.o
Hypergenesis - Some might try to argue this card as somewhat fair due to it being so fragile but seriously it was just flat unfun to play against unless you were control. Add in Urabrask and now your deck doesn't have to have a god hand to win on turn 3...
Sword of the Meek - gain 1 life + 1 1/1 flier per mana spent? YES please! Seriously though joking aside it's pretty easy to understand why this 4 mana 2 card combo got the ban hammer applied.
Sensei's Divining Top - I HATE the reason it got banned but i happen to understand it. Insane number of draws during swiss rounds skewing possible/probable results and lengthening tournament times is fun for anyone involved.
Online this isn't as much of a problem due to the chess timer but unfortunately they have not adopted that for paper tournaments and will not due to the hassles it would create.
Yeah, Clones and pod are very good against UB Control
@char Totally agree
Thanks :D
I'd be very happy with the kind of year that brad had. Average or not.
Valakut is kind of bad for us. Oracle really gives us fits. Most versions I have seen are running them over Solemn, which I think is right due to all the blue.
I also find pod to be pretty rough at times, especially when they get slime chains, the multiple copies happening via Metamorphs and Illusions...
Hey Agur nice logo. Very sharp looking.
I concur. This encapsulates in a nutshell how I feel about tolerance/intolerance. It is a dangerous thing when societies become so rigid that intolerance is more the norm.
More like a nightly basis :)
i wonder how long will it take people to finally understand that brad is an average player who had a lucky year. comparing him to lsv or paulo is just a joke
No worries it wasn't the only thing I got out of the article, but on the same note while I do understand that the lifestyle is in the minority.
to use your quote "It simply isn't normal, nor should it be. Then again, since when are Magic players normal."
Illustrates my next point perfectly.
While it and magic are both not normal or what most people do, neither activity is illegal, and neither should be looked upon with disdain by others just because it's not what they think is proper.
Valakut should have been banned in standard a long time ago, or been errata'd to Legendary. Hilariously it is now considered too good for Modern, but A-OK in standard, because ??????
For the record, I'm aware it doesn't top 8 an insane amount, but that's only because people hate playing it due to the variance and mirror, it destroys dailies regularly and is one of the toughest matchups for UW/UB control. It used to be sometimes they just didn't have the Titan. Now with GSZ and Summoning Trap, they always have it.
I have seen a good deal of UB control around lately. It was good to see the deck in action from the other side for a change. I join you in the disliking of Valakut. I have always had a tough time with the match up, but seeing someone skilled playing against it, regardless of the outcomes, does help quite a bit. Thanks for the great vids again! Keep them coming.
Indeed, the problem is all of his cards were active at that point, the game was effectively over.
Ranth,
It's been a few years since I've wander in Columbus as most of my family is near Findlay/Bowling Green areas. Either way, I know what collaring is, I understand the point, but I still disagree with it. I still feel it is disrespectful to parade a woman around like she is some kind of dog on a leash regardless of the fact that she agrees to it and is submissive for it.
It is my opinion and you can't convince me otherwise. Is this really the only thing you took out of the article? I'd hope that the point of my article was about Magic, not to provoke some kind of history/wiki lesson on the ins and outs of this type of behavoir.
I can assure you right or wrong, this type of "lifestyle" is in the minority. It's one thing to do it in your social circle, it's another to do it in public. There were tons of small kids around, try explaining to them why that girl is wearing a leash and why Mommy isn't.
It simply isn't normal, nor should it be. Then again, since when are Magic players normal.
I'm just so glad they've banned Bitterblossom. I wanna see new decks, not just an all-star of past standard formats...
I agree with everything but the Looter: he's very, very good. Especially in UB and if you can get one or two Gravediggers. Otherwise he's good filtering or even just one extra target for your opponent's removal (and that may save your Titan from a Doom Blade, for example).
Very nice videos, thanks for posting them. While your deck doesn't contain anything uber-valuable it seems like it did very good! You've been lucky two or three times, especially with ponder, but that's part of the game. Good job! :-)
Well, if you see my Limited rating you will learn that I'm not the best player to ask for directions as I'm basically writing here to ask for that myself :)
Nonetheless I'm more than willing to share my thoughts on this format I've got so far:
First and foremost, M12 is aggro. Period. You can still build the control deck but it really must be THE NUTS to get there.
Only kinds of control that still work like a charm are counters and tempo but the first most likely has to be aimed at your opponent aggro instead of utility spells (unless you know he has something big like Fireball). I would still counter a shock from times to times if it messes with MY aggro but I wouldn't do it at the speed of light as before.
I would still counter Overrun like there is no tomorrow if given the opportunity.
I personally don't mind having a couple of counters in my deck in case I draft blue.
Tappers are very good, maybe not first pick material but in an aggro format tapping their best beater is usually game-turning. Frost Titan, Frost Breath, Gideon's Lawkeeper and the artifact crown (in that order IMHO) are high pick material (the Titan first pick, of course).
Aether Adept is a powerhouse because is both aggro and tempo, insta-pick if you are in blue unless there are bombs still there.
Removal is still high priority but if you can manage to run an endless stream of creatures it becomes secondary. This does not apply to Chandra's Outrage or the removal on legs (the white Archon).
The same is true for card advantage; it's usually better to play another dude than a Divination and give a time walk to your opponent unless you can do both. Merfolk Looter is a good card but his pick priority in my opinion fell down a little.
This does not apply to the insane sphinx of uthuun but that's kinda obvious.
Bloodthirst: there are far too many enablers out there to worry too much about them; just one word of advice: don't waste removal on the enablers if you're against black (unless you're also running black and your removal is Doom Blade), most of them can be killed by the shock or sorin's thirst you're about to waste on the enabler. Just keep in mind that there is the vampire too and be prepared.
If you're running against red, use removal on the enablers because both of the big bloodthirst guys are bigger than your removal, unless you're running doom blades and oblivion rings in which case scrap that and use them on the big guys.
Hexproof is not that big a deal in a format that relies on trades unless it's paired with evasion (Aven Fleetwing) or it's just absurd like the Dungrove Elder. But then again there is nothing you can do about them, be prepared to deal with them, the first is not impossible to race with but the second has to be chumped/traded as soon as possible.
Ramp is nice if it comes with aggro (Llanowar Elves or Solemn Simulacrum), otherwise is mostly a blank unless you're top heavy like my second draft.
Flying is still a big concern.
Tutors are good if you have more than one bomb, otherwise is mostly a blank but that was true in M11 too.
EDIT: I forgot Gravedigger. He is aggro that returns dead aggro to deck. It's a king in this format; If you ever draft 2 (or more) it's ground-lock time.
I may have said some obvious and some debatable things but that's mostly what it comes to mind to me when I draft; feel free to correct me.