So, regaurdless of the fact that he had more counterspells then i did. I was facing off against a creature deck and going to 8 life with 2x mutavault on the table means i have 1 less turn to try and rip a win. I should have tapped mountain, and then mana drained the spell pierce, i would have lost to his fow anyway, but thats that. I didnt pay the life because of his clock, stupid illuisons. lol
You didn't even mention it I don't think, but why would you pay U to mental misstep his spell pierce? He has a max of 4 damage on the table, so going to 8 doesn't seem so bad there. Plus even if you tap out to resolve the vault you just need to survive the turn and you probably win. Just wondering if it was just lack of thought/concentration, or if you had a reason not to pay 2 life.
Basically though, this conversation is stemming from the fact that I wanted more from the article. That is a good thing. This is a great topic.
I think the whole ban list is an interesting discussion.
And I think control decks also need a shot in the arm, otherwise this will be a Combo/12-post format (could be argued that it already is).
Please understand that this is just my opinion and I am not attached to it at all. Some would think that because I am giving feedback, that I think I am better than you or some nonsense like that. Not the case at all, I am just trying to genuinely help the content side of things and want to see my peers succeed.
In the mirror, green post may be better as it is faster and has more 6-cost powerful plays (entwined Reap, Primeval Titan). Against stuff like Splinter Twin and ritual combos, the Blue version is probably better. As basically everyone was going strictly green (or green/red for Breach) and as Control is non-existent and Combo had free reign (not caring for Glimmerpost's life gain and able to outpace mono-Green), 12-post decks didn't do that well.
Yea, he probably would have topped in Poison, but I'm not sure it's a HUGE upgrade considering that that deck is something of a glass cannon. I like it a lot, but if people are playing more removal and as they adjust to his deck, it becomes much more fragile, especially if he's having to get through countertop decks too (in the case that top was unbanned ofc).
Peer still has a home in storm, but I am talking about the infect-pitch deck that sam black piloted. Top would be good there. I think it would be better in Twin/Hive Mind too.
But Peer is clearly the better card for Storm. Sry. Should have been clear about that :)
From the little I've played, there definitely seems to be a much more defined archetype metagame than in most draft formats in the way of a rock-paper-scissors system. There's your really quick aggro deck that trounces on a slower, mid-range deck (where their 4/5-drops are quickly removed and they can't really stabilize well enough before they die) but loses to a dedicated control deck (full of removal, speed-bumps, then 2-3 gamewinning cards), while control loses to a mid-range deck because the overall power of the mid-range deck is stronger and thus, harder to beat (wring flesh is better against a Goblin Fireslinger/Child of Night, than it is a Cudgel Troll or Chasm Drake).
It's weird, and I'm still pretty intimidated by the format, I can't shake off the 0-1 drops easily.
I think you'd want to be a little 3-heavy compared to previous builds.
Let's do this:
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Veldalken Shackles
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
Add lands.
You could also cut White totally for Go for the Throat or something, and you have the option of Firespout in Red or Goyf from green (or even Knight of the Reliquary) to really slam the door shut on aggro if you wanted. If you stay white, you can have Aven Mindcensor from the sideboard, and if you want Red, you could have a basic-heavy mana-base and run Blood Moons.
Another direction would be to be really artifact-heavy with Mox Opal for speed, but that's more of a Tezzerett deck I think.
I think people over-reacted to the inclusion of bloodthirst and stronger red/black in M12. These changes helped to balance out the overpowering nature of blue/white in M11, but they did not result in a draft environment where aggro decks rule. Rather, they provided an environment where a solid aggro deck could compete with a control deck on a relatively even footing. I think red/black is actually being a bit overdrafted now, and as a consequence mid-range or control decks may actually end up stronger in many cases. That's certainly been my experience.
I find drafting if I win, it's on the mid-game with 2-3 big creatures that win me the games, and generally just having creature advantage.
A cheap and quick creature deck will start well and win if your opponent is struggling, but if they get their standards out you'll be in trouble. BUT creature removal is very common, so you need plan B's - and if you didn't get some nice bomb-rares in your draft, chances are you opponent did and you'll need a response for that.
Having your quick rapid-fire creatures in early and annoying hopefully means they'll spend all their removal on those guys before you Mr Big comes to play (be it a fireball, sorin's vengeance, garruk's horde, angel, sphinx or mind control). The one individual card I've lost to the most in draft is Overrun, and if you got a couple of those then you won't need big creatures - just lots of them!
Yeah, but you can't deny just how much 12post is being played, and that its a yet to be fully refined to the meta.
There's just so many ways that you can go with 12post, and while that's obviously an advantage its a weakness before the meta stabilizes. With a clearer idea of what they are up against its going to be a dominant deck.
Aside from a nuts draw for a superfast aggro or combo deck there are simply not many ways to beat it. If the game goes past the first three or four turns 12post is almost certain to win.
If you don't think 12post is a threat I'd like to see your tech that gives you an easy win against U, UG and G versions.
When a lot of people are playing one archetype its for a good reason.
You do realize that when it came down to it...12-Post was only good enough to get one person into the top 8 at the Pro-Tour right? And even then it was the through the breach version? Doesnt seem like its much of a threat at all. Just no one was fighting it the right way.
I really liked how this was written, but it was far too short. If i were you i would have assumed that Top was unbanned and built a deck based on what the format looked like at pt philly.
Beating 12post is a real problem for everyone atm sadly. The problem really is that 12post isn't really one deck, its LOTS of decks that are built around a similar idea and there's no easy way to prepare for all of them. Particularly I think the mono-blue 12post is next to impossible for a control deck. Recurring all the meanest cards in deck through academy ruins like oblivion stone, crucibal of worlds (with expedition map and tectonic edge) and wurmcoil engine means that counterspells are almost useless because you can't just keep playing them. When you have that much mana its not even that big of a tempo loss.
But yeah, I'd love to see countertop make a return to the game. Yeah sometimes it sucked to have to sit and wait through it all, but at the same time it was interesting to see the a control deck built around a combo. Interesting meta to be sure. Then agian, kami/rav was the first standard I played in so maybe I'm biased.
So, no its more of a common Jacearator deck, and your right, but so few decks have played Clique in Classic, I just wanted to feature the lil gang of misfits, it's not quite your everyday jacerator deck either.
Maybe i should have called Boltarator. he he.
The battle sphere may be worse in the Clique version, its a little better in the welder version. I basically wanted my robot to have value vs swords to plowshares. I tinker and you have stp, with battle ball, i at least have 4 chump blockers to help me set up a jace/time vault/ firespout. Also welding tokens is nifty as i said.
Heres a video of the Welder version in a 2 man against cat weasel with GG Oath
LOL With more Jaces than Cliques, how is this not just Jacerator with Cliques? And with the same number of Predators, maybe it is Predatorator? ;p Trolling aside, do you really think Battlesphere is a solid choice in this meta? It seemed like he was never better than BSC (who can't be Claimed or Grudged or Pridemaged, etc.).
Thanks for the Flash videos and pretty much confirming that the amount of Dredge hate means that Flash gets his by splash-hate. Leylines seem brutal here.
Yea it happens. Think weekends would be easier to test when you are not working. Thanks again for the thumbs up. (^^)
also Disrupting shoal for Protection.
You got me again, sir.
peer gets blazing shoal and dragonstrom, it is much better then top.
So, regaurdless of the fact that he had more counterspells then i did. I was facing off against a creature deck and going to 8 life with 2x mutavault on the table means i have 1 less turn to try and rip a win. I should have tapped mountain, and then mana drained the spell pierce, i would have lost to his fow anyway, but thats that. I didnt pay the life because of his clock, stupid illuisons. lol
You didn't even mention it I don't think, but why would you pay U to mental misstep his spell pierce? He has a max of 4 damage on the table, so going to 8 doesn't seem so bad there. Plus even if you tap out to resolve the vault you just need to survive the turn and you probably win. Just wondering if it was just lack of thought/concentration, or if you had a reason not to pay 2 life.
Basically though, this conversation is stemming from the fact that I wanted more from the article. That is a good thing. This is a great topic.
I think the whole ban list is an interesting discussion.
And I think control decks also need a shot in the arm, otherwise this will be a Combo/12-post format (could be argued that it already is).
Please understand that this is just my opinion and I am not attached to it at all. Some would think that because I am giving feedback, that I think I am better than you or some nonsense like that. Not the case at all, I am just trying to genuinely help the content side of things and want to see my peers succeed.
That's a really good point. Erman talked about him in love with Blue post he was. I'd have loved to see him at the PT with his build.
In the mirror, green post may be better as it is faster and has more 6-cost powerful plays (entwined Reap, Primeval Titan). Against stuff like Splinter Twin and ritual combos, the Blue version is probably better. As basically everyone was going strictly green (or green/red for Breach) and as Control is non-existent and Combo had free reign (not caring for Glimmerpost's life gain and able to outpace mono-Green), 12-post decks didn't do that well.
Yea, he probably would have topped in Poison, but I'm not sure it's a HUGE upgrade considering that that deck is something of a glass cannon. I like it a lot, but if people are playing more removal and as they adjust to his deck, it becomes much more fragile, especially if he's having to get through countertop decks too (in the case that top was unbanned ofc).
Peer still has a home in storm, but I am talking about the infect-pitch deck that sam black piloted. Top would be good there. I think it would be better in Twin/Hive Mind too.
But Peer is clearly the better card for Storm. Sry. Should have been clear about that :)
Should've mentioned that the connection was screwing with our games as well...
Anyway...look forward to more testing, once I get my magical life back.
Good article.
Nah, Peer is better... they want to rack up storm AND dig five deep, not dig three each turn with 0 storm boost.
I like the premise, but I think there is still more explanation needed as to why you think it should be unbanned.
I also agree to a point, but don't you think that Top would enable disgusting things from all the combo decks that are floating around....
Like the Infect deck would have a ton more options and wouldn't have to run mediocre cards like Peer through Depths anymore.
good topic, sir.
From the little I've played, there definitely seems to be a much more defined archetype metagame than in most draft formats in the way of a rock-paper-scissors system. There's your really quick aggro deck that trounces on a slower, mid-range deck (where their 4/5-drops are quickly removed and they can't really stabilize well enough before they die) but loses to a dedicated control deck (full of removal, speed-bumps, then 2-3 gamewinning cards), while control loses to a mid-range deck because the overall power of the mid-range deck is stronger and thus, harder to beat (wring flesh is better against a Goblin Fireslinger/Child of Night, than it is a Cudgel Troll or Chasm Drake).
It's weird, and I'm still pretty intimidated by the format, I can't shake off the 0-1 drops easily.
Illussions seem to be your nemesis. :)
I think you'd want to be a little 3-heavy compared to previous builds.
Let's do this:
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Veldalken Shackles
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
Add lands.
You could also cut White totally for Go for the Throat or something, and you have the option of Firespout in Red or Goyf from green (or even Knight of the Reliquary) to really slam the door shut on aggro if you wanted. If you stay white, you can have Aven Mindcensor from the sideboard, and if you want Red, you could have a basic-heavy mana-base and run Blood Moons.
Another direction would be to be really artifact-heavy with Mox Opal for speed, but that's more of a Tezzerett deck I think.
I think people over-reacted to the inclusion of bloodthirst and stronger red/black in M12. These changes helped to balance out the overpowering nature of blue/white in M11, but they did not result in a draft environment where aggro decks rule. Rather, they provided an environment where a solid aggro deck could compete with a control deck on a relatively even footing. I think red/black is actually being a bit overdrafted now, and as a consequence mid-range or control decks may actually end up stronger in many cases. That's certainly been my experience.
I find drafting if I win, it's on the mid-game with 2-3 big creatures that win me the games, and generally just having creature advantage.
A cheap and quick creature deck will start well and win if your opponent is struggling, but if they get their standards out you'll be in trouble. BUT creature removal is very common, so you need plan B's - and if you didn't get some nice bomb-rares in your draft, chances are you opponent did and you'll need a response for that.
Having your quick rapid-fire creatures in early and annoying hopefully means they'll spend all their removal on those guys before you Mr Big comes to play (be it a fireball, sorin's vengeance, garruk's horde, angel, sphinx or mind control). The one individual card I've lost to the most in draft is Overrun, and if you got a couple of those then you won't need big creatures - just lots of them!
Yeah, but you can't deny just how much 12post is being played, and that its a yet to be fully refined to the meta.
There's just so many ways that you can go with 12post, and while that's obviously an advantage its a weakness before the meta stabilizes. With a clearer idea of what they are up against its going to be a dominant deck.
Aside from a nuts draw for a superfast aggro or combo deck there are simply not many ways to beat it. If the game goes past the first three or four turns 12post is almost certain to win.
If you don't think 12post is a threat I'd like to see your tech that gives you an easy win against U, UG and G versions.
When a lot of people are playing one archetype its for a good reason.
You do realize that when it came down to it...12-Post was only good enough to get one person into the top 8 at the Pro-Tour right? And even then it was the through the breach version? Doesnt seem like its much of a threat at all. Just no one was fighting it the right way.
I really liked how this was written, but it was far too short. If i were you i would have assumed that Top was unbanned and built a deck based on what the format looked like at pt philly.
Beating 12post is a real problem for everyone atm sadly. The problem really is that 12post isn't really one deck, its LOTS of decks that are built around a similar idea and there's no easy way to prepare for all of them. Particularly I think the mono-blue 12post is next to impossible for a control deck. Recurring all the meanest cards in deck through academy ruins like oblivion stone, crucibal of worlds (with expedition map and tectonic edge) and wurmcoil engine means that counterspells are almost useless because you can't just keep playing them. When you have that much mana its not even that big of a tempo loss.
But yeah, I'd love to see countertop make a return to the game. Yeah sometimes it sucked to have to sit and wait through it all, but at the same time it was interesting to see the a control deck built around a combo. Interesting meta to be sure. Then agian, kami/rav was the first standard I played in so maybe I'm biased.
So, no its more of a common Jacearator deck, and your right, but so few decks have played Clique in Classic, I just wanted to feature the lil gang of misfits, it's not quite your everyday jacerator deck either.
Maybe i should have called Boltarator. he he.
The battle sphere may be worse in the Clique version, its a little better in the welder version. I basically wanted my robot to have value vs swords to plowshares. I tinker and you have stp, with battle ball, i at least have 4 chump blockers to help me set up a jace/time vault/ firespout. Also welding tokens is nifty as i said.
Heres a video of the Welder version in a 2 man against cat weasel with GG Oath
http://youtu.be/oRzrK1hHqEQ
some combos can be stopped!
LOL With more Jaces than Cliques, how is this not just Jacerator with Cliques? And with the same number of Predators, maybe it is Predatorator? ;p Trolling aside, do you really think Battlesphere is a solid choice in this meta? It seemed like he was never better than BSC (who can't be Claimed or Grudged or Pridemaged, etc.).
Thanks for the Flash videos and pretty much confirming that the amount of Dredge hate means that Flash gets his by splash-hate. Leylines seem brutal here.