A deck wins or losses. That's why its no ban-worthy.
I do not see that a legit argument for or against banning. Infect can be a coin-flip/combo deck, but it does not fizzle that easy.
What I find the issue with infect is the speed of which it can pull out wins. To me at least I find the deck slightly to fast (to many free pumps), and would like to see invigorate go.
Yeah I don't really think $30 is realistic (but it sure was fun to say that!)I do think it will be higher than any of you predicted. I would not be surprised if it caps at $20 or higher. It seems like a card you almost always want 4 of. It will enable some odd ball decks like 4-5c aggro etc.
Nevermind the uncounterable part, name a recent playable land printing that has given us all 5 colors. If it had no colorless ability too it would of course be meh but I see this as being a casual staple at the very minimum and would be unsurprised to see it in a real t8 deck not merely once but often over the course of time and in multiple formats. It's true that it might not appeal to people playing with the ISD/m12 land suite since those depend so closely on basics.
You're right about prices starting to separate from the pack, but for our little guessing game we were shooting for prices on the Friday after the release events start, and i don't think prices will have plummeted that quickly just yet.
You think in this day of mythics and nonstop drafting that a regular rare can get up to $30? I know the card is great, but I can't imagine that being the case in this day and age. Then again what do I know.
Ah yes you are right about Dark Confidant I had forgotten that he only reveals the cards doesnt force you to draw cards which I should have remembered from testing a lab maniac deck with Bob in it.
Great show this week guys! Very animated and enjoyable, particularly the scathing commentary surrounding marginal counterspells, etc. Not quite sure I got the angel-troll image joke thing but I am certain one of you will explain it.
I think a lot of your price guesses aren't too far off though I felt a couple seemed too high or too low.
There seems to be a pattern with the modern sets that 2-3 cards take the brunt of the $$$ cost of the set and everything else even marginally good hits the 1-2 ticket range after prices settle with some slowly crawling up to 3-4 or down to .5-.75 per. And junk rares hitting the bargain bin really pretty quickly.
Cavern of Souls is a format warping card of untold repercussions. I am guessing it will top out at $30 until demand is satisfied. After that it will probably over in the 15-20 range, since it pretty fits into a certain number of decks that already exist. I too don't much care for Tibalt but RDW is always a deck waiting to happen and cheap PW will see play. Id say it will be above 10 and below 15.
Looks like a fun time. I haven't looked at Avatar of Will in a long time, Avatar of Will w/ discard almost seems constructed playable. The support cards would probably have to get a lot more expensive, but the basic theme w/ Avatar sounds like something that could win a few packs in legacy with.
If you want to get really silly then how does any avatar + birthing bod work for you ?
Avatar (cast for 2) -> Artisan of Kozilek (returning the avatar) or Iona, Shield of Emirria (who's just evil) -> Progenitus -> Ulamog or Darksteel Colossus -> Blightsteel Colossus.
I was hoping you could get all the way up to Emrakul but there's nothing at 13 or 14 :(.
Still... If you can somehow get that stuff set-up, then you are in for good times.
Infect is a great deck, but hardly overpowered. From my experience, blue control - and that includes cloudpost control - are pretty good matchups. Trouble starts when you bump into goblins, Affinity, rats, or any deck that packs a ton of black removal.
Infect either wrecks you or gets wrecked by you. That's why it's not ban-worthy.
Hey Chantry, of course those cards are good if your matery is on top, my point being that mastery and those cards in your deck are not good in blind situations. Ok I thirst from a blind library, on opponents turn, if mastery is not sitting on top of your deck, congrats you drew a 7 mana spell.
The "combo"s are all proactive ways to get Mastery on top, the nonbos while still great cards are worse blind since you draw multiple cards.
At least thats the way i think, i mean if you have a sdt down or a jace, then thirst and gush are amazing otherwise they are just card draw spells that give you way more chances to have mastery not be the first card you drew in a turn.
"At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost."
You don't draw a card off of him. So with deck manipulation, it's great. Without deck manipulation, you risk taking 7 and not even being able to "miracle" it out.
No restrictions on miracle and sorcery, otherwise you couldn't cast it during your draw phase when miracle would normally trigger. The only restriction is "first card drawn this turn," which means you need it to be the top card at the moment you actually draw, whether that's during your turn or your opponents.
There's going to be a lot of "At the End of your turn I'll use divining top, then tap top to draw, and... oh look, misewalk."
This works great with Gush, since you can float the two mana you'll need to cast temporal manipulation before returning the lands for Gush. If only you can figure out some way to get it on top first. :-)
Remember it has to be the first card you draw in the turn in order to cast it for its miracle cost so Dark Confidant wouldn't be great and I'm not clear on the rules but even if you draw it on an opponents turn isn't it still a sorcery so you wouldn't be able to cast it or does it become an instant.
I think it's interesting that you list thirst for knowledge and gush as being bad with temporal manipulation. To my mind, instant speed draw spells seem like an amazingly good fit. During your opponent's turn, you float two mana with gush, draw temporal manipulation and another card, cast it with the mana you floated... You even get two turns to replay the two lands you bounced... If you cast temporal manipulation during your opponent's turn, you get to take two turns in a row... Granted, you need to have it on top of your deck, but that's sort of the given prerequisite for Mise Walk anyway.
Noxious Revival isn't a great combo, since the card exiles itself on cast, but I guess if you mill it off... Seems clunky.
I'd be wary of playing this with Bob, but then again, if you're manipulating the deck, it could work out. You risk -7 life, sure, but when it worked, it'd be hot. I brainstorm to stack my deck at your EoT, Bob magically reveals a land, puts it in my hand (rather than drawing it), then the next card is... Mise-walk! More cards, more lands, Bob doing his thing. I like it, although maybe not in Classic as much.
Personally I'm super-excited about playing it with brainstorms and tops and in any aggro deck that plays blue. I don't often buy cards when they're new, instead opting to play the long game and pick them up as the prices level out, but I think I'll be getting some of these right away.
I will absolutely do so when I'm convinced it is the way to go, sorry if that sounds rude. While I can see the arguement in Delver being aggro/control instead of control/aggro its unfortunate because Delver itself has blurred the line between the two and the deck is HEAVY control while still being able to aggro (thanks to fae)... where it comes in is, as you said, there is a small section that isn't running the delver deck, which would leave it in "rogue" some weeks...
with regards to storm I don't see a need to split it.. sure it gets to the outcome slightly different, but the end is still the same spell and a majority of the cards used to get to that result are the same in both.. both decks are delt with the same way whereas you can make the argument that delver is delt with differently then the creature light versions of MUC... splitting storm up might be even more splitting hairs and could see a majority of storm versions drop off to rogue, which I'd hate to see
maybe after the next week's results I'll make a note regarding the subtype on delver and then see how the breakdown would lie
I think the fact that this deck is stupid is obvious lol it is more consistent at a fast win then Storm and some lists run from 4 to 8 spells that keep an opponent from targeting... as I said in my BnR article its just going to keep happening until it really takes over the format
though side note it has taken quite a jump in showings recently
side note #2... my only criticism is that it kinda bothers me calling it poison instead of infect, I realize its the same thing, but idk lol
The argument I read your using is:
A deck wins or losses. That's why its no ban-worthy.
I do not see that a legit argument for or against banning. Infect can be a coin-flip/combo deck, but it does not fizzle that easy.
What I find the issue with infect is the speed of which it can pull out wins. To me at least I find the deck slightly to fast (to many free pumps), and would like to see invigorate go.
think this is a fantastic idea
It will be bigger than snappy for a while, and snappy was ~20ish for the first couple weeks.
Ahah! I see now. Sort of a mask reference?
Yeah I don't really think $30 is realistic (but it sure was fun to say that!)I do think it will be higher than any of you predicted. I would not be surprised if it caps at $20 or higher. It seems like a card you almost always want 4 of. It will enable some odd ball decks like 4-5c aggro etc.
Nevermind the uncounterable part, name a recent playable land printing that has given us all 5 colors. If it had no colorless ability too it would of course be meh but I see this as being a casual staple at the very minimum and would be unsurprised to see it in a real t8 deck not merely once but often over the course of time and in multiple formats. It's true that it might not appeal to people playing with the ISD/m12 land suite since those depend so closely on basics.
Slim chance Cavern hits $30. "A: 10, S: 7-8, K: 5-6," all sound reasonable. Even $15 would surprise me.
Thanks for the praise, Paul.
You're right about prices starting to separate from the pack, but for our little guessing game we were shooting for prices on the Friday after the release events start, and i don't think prices will have plummeted that quickly just yet.
You think in this day of mythics and nonstop drafting that a regular rare can get up to $30? I know the card is great, but I can't imagine that being the case in this day and age. Then again what do I know.
P.S. I cooked this up just for you Paul:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/sigarda.jpg/
:D
Ah yes you are right about Dark Confidant I had forgotten that he only reveals the cards doesnt force you to draw cards which I should have remembered from testing a lab maniac deck with Bob in it.
@ AJ: Yes, I had a senior moment with your Masticores vs Manticores. :) Damn you for aggravating my Alzheimer's!
@ Keya: Congratulations and condolences!
*slides back into a confused stupor*
Great show this week guys! Very animated and enjoyable, particularly the scathing commentary surrounding marginal counterspells, etc. Not quite sure I got the angel-troll image joke thing but I am certain one of you will explain it.
I think a lot of your price guesses aren't too far off though I felt a couple seemed too high or too low.
There seems to be a pattern with the modern sets that 2-3 cards take the brunt of the $$$ cost of the set and everything else even marginally good hits the 1-2 ticket range after prices settle with some slowly crawling up to 3-4 or down to .5-.75 per. And junk rares hitting the bargain bin really pretty quickly.
Cavern of Souls is a format warping card of untold repercussions. I am guessing it will top out at $30 until demand is satisfied. After that it will probably over in the 15-20 range, since it pretty fits into a certain number of decks that already exist. I too don't much care for Tibalt but RDW is always a deck waiting to happen and cheap PW will see play. Id say it will be above 10 and below 15.
Really enjoy seeing some of these old drafts that I wasn't around for
It was, but it has been stable at 6-7 TIX for quite a while. I might add it again once Avacyn Restored comes out, and people stop drafting Innistrad.
Looks like a fun time. I haven't looked at Avatar of Will in a long time, Avatar of Will w/ discard almost seems constructed playable. The support cards would probably have to get a lot more expensive, but the basic theme w/ Avatar sounds like something that could win a few packs in legacy with.
If you want to get really silly then how does any avatar + birthing bod work for you ?
Avatar (cast for 2) -> Artisan of Kozilek (returning the avatar) or Iona, Shield of Emirria (who's just evil) -> Progenitus -> Ulamog or Darksteel Colossus -> Blightsteel Colossus.
I was hoping you could get all the way up to Emrakul but there's nothing at 13 or 14 :(.
Still... If you can somehow get that stuff set-up, then you are in for good times.
Infect is a great deck, but hardly overpowered. From my experience, blue control - and that includes cloudpost control - are pretty good matchups. Trouble starts when you bump into goblins, Affinity, rats, or any deck that packs a ton of black removal.
Infect either wrecks you or gets wrecked by you. That's why it's not ban-worthy.
Hey Chantry, of course those cards are good if your matery is on top, my point being that mastery and those cards in your deck are not good in blind situations. Ok I thirst from a blind library, on opponents turn, if mastery is not sitting on top of your deck, congrats you drew a 7 mana spell.
The "combo"s are all proactive ways to get Mastery on top, the nonbos while still great cards are worse blind since you draw multiple cards.
At least thats the way i think, i mean if you have a sdt down or a jace, then thirst and gush are amazing otherwise they are just card draw spells that give you way more chances to have mastery not be the first card you drew in a turn.
george
LOL, I agree its obvious that we know it is a stupid deck, I just like pointing in out.
Also idk, I like calling it poison, but to each his/her own.
Okay, as long as we're being silly....cast Hatred, pay 15 life and cast Fling.
Gotta read Dark Confidant.
"At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost."
You don't draw a card off of him. So with deck manipulation, it's great. Without deck manipulation, you risk taking 7 and not even being able to "miracle" it out.
No restrictions on miracle and sorcery, otherwise you couldn't cast it during your draw phase when miracle would normally trigger. The only restriction is "first card drawn this turn," which means you need it to be the top card at the moment you actually draw, whether that's during your turn or your opponents.
There's going to be a lot of "At the End of your turn I'll use divining top, then tap top to draw, and... oh look, misewalk."
This works great with Gush, since you can float the two mana you'll need to cast temporal manipulation before returning the lands for Gush. If only you can figure out some way to get it on top first. :-)
--Chantry
Remember it has to be the first card you draw in the turn in order to cast it for its miracle cost so Dark Confidant wouldn't be great and I'm not clear on the rules but even if you draw it on an opponents turn isn't it still a sorcery so you wouldn't be able to cast it or does it become an instant.
Considering Tarmogoyf was never printed in Korean, I certainly hope it isn't much.
I think it's interesting that you list thirst for knowledge and gush as being bad with temporal manipulation. To my mind, instant speed draw spells seem like an amazingly good fit. During your opponent's turn, you float two mana with gush, draw temporal manipulation and another card, cast it with the mana you floated... You even get two turns to replay the two lands you bounced... If you cast temporal manipulation during your opponent's turn, you get to take two turns in a row... Granted, you need to have it on top of your deck, but that's sort of the given prerequisite for Mise Walk anyway.
Noxious Revival isn't a great combo, since the card exiles itself on cast, but I guess if you mill it off... Seems clunky.
I'd be wary of playing this with Bob, but then again, if you're manipulating the deck, it could work out. You risk -7 life, sure, but when it worked, it'd be hot. I brainstorm to stack my deck at your EoT, Bob magically reveals a land, puts it in my hand (rather than drawing it), then the next card is... Mise-walk! More cards, more lands, Bob doing his thing. I like it, although maybe not in Classic as much.
Personally I'm super-excited about playing it with brainstorms and tops and in any aggro deck that plays blue. I don't often buy cards when they're new, instead opting to play the long game and pick them up as the prices level out, but I think I'll be getting some of these right away.
I will absolutely do so when I'm convinced it is the way to go, sorry if that sounds rude. While I can see the arguement in Delver being aggro/control instead of control/aggro its unfortunate because Delver itself has blurred the line between the two and the deck is HEAVY control while still being able to aggro (thanks to fae)... where it comes in is, as you said, there is a small section that isn't running the delver deck, which would leave it in "rogue" some weeks...
with regards to storm I don't see a need to split it.. sure it gets to the outcome slightly different, but the end is still the same spell and a majority of the cards used to get to that result are the same in both.. both decks are delt with the same way whereas you can make the argument that delver is delt with differently then the creature light versions of MUC... splitting storm up might be even more splitting hairs and could see a majority of storm versions drop off to rogue, which I'd hate to see
maybe after the next week's results I'll make a note regarding the subtype on delver and then see how the breakdown would lie
I think the fact that this deck is stupid is obvious lol it is more consistent at a fast win then Storm and some lists run from 4 to 8 spells that keep an opponent from targeting... as I said in my BnR article its just going to keep happening until it really takes over the format
though side note it has taken quite a jump in showings recently
side note #2... my only criticism is that it kinda bothers me calling it poison instead of infect, I realize its the same thing, but idk lol
How much are you charging for a Korean playset of foiled Tarmogoyfs?
why doesn't snapcaster mage get some pricewatch love?