I think a looter effect is need in the deck (also consider Krovikan Sorcerer) Gush should not be more than a 2 of because you lose tempo in land on board if drawn early and can't cast normally until T5 anyhow.
I would rather see Waterfront bouncer than Aquamoeba. Bouncer can block and bounce to neutralize 2 threats.
Also Obsessive Search is deck thinning possibility.
You have to consider whether you are playing a control deck or an aggro deck.
You also have no flyers/flyer protection in this deck. Could consider Skywing Aven for this role. Without a flier, it may be difficult to get ninjas into play.
You should see Juff...plenty of top tier decks in there. Well some are definitely only tier 2 but many are winners. And then you get the total opposite spectrum. Badly thrown together ideas in haphazard way over minimum deck size lists. Ive seen a resurgence of Battle of Wits in Juff of late because who doesn't like playing 250+ card decks?
I do think the investment idea takes a lot of time. Only people willing to pay top dollar will jump in immediately but since there are plenty of deck types to go around people will try stuff out. Until they get discouraged enough. I expect that to happen more in Juff than TP but probably will happen in both.
The guys on the Mana Drain and Menendian on So Many Insane Plays talk about formats like this. Only pre-Mirage or Only pre-Ice Age etc. I think they play with current rules, which obviously you'd have to do if you were doing this online. It's an interesting way to re-visit those old cards with 20 years of Magic knowledge and theory. Because in the early 90s nobody knew how to play.
It's been really nice to see people playing uncompetitive decks in TP. Some people are using shock lands or M10 duals. This means that people are checking out the format and playing it even if they aren't super invested. For so long with Classic, it was only the most invested people who were playing, so you only saw the best decks from the same players. All these tier 2 and 3 decks are a sign of a much healthier format to me.
Thanks for the contact name/site Paul, I will check into that and send it over to him. I agree on the challenges, especially without a built in filter. The "3 years" was totally arbitrary, I really haven't done much "research" to see what sets/pools would be the healthiest.
Actually while I tend to be a softy in terms of Jerkwads, there are serious risks in acting out on MTGO. Considering the value of some digital collections, acting that way just seems borderline idiotic. Sure, sure when we get mad and have no impulse control or self discipline or any strong parental influences in our lives, saying awful things to people who literally did nothing to us is very tempting. But losing your ability to play completely is a real consequence.
And you are right that people do tend to be jerkwads more online than irl because fear of physical retribution is probably a stronger conditioner of social behavior than threats of financial ruin. However, the Nth time someone behaves that way it becomes passe. At some point you accept it as a fact of online life. If it really bothers you then you can use the tools for reporting to make sure they don't do it again.
I've seen people totally go off not only in TP but in Tourney where they just would not stop the abuse.
Also Rofl @ FTK as Control. Someone was having a really bad day...
You may be right about the core of the problem being that people have different perspectives but in general most people on MTGO accept certain givens.
I don't know if you remember "Gent Rules" that was a thing for a while in 2.0 and earlier. It was an agreement by some fairly well known players (whom others aped) to only play certain kinds of decks (no massive ld, excessive counters, boardwipes, hand destruction, etc). Sort of the precursor to the "social contract" stuff that came from EDH. Eventually "Gent Rules" disappeared. I am not sure why it ended but I suspect because a number of players who supported it stopped playing altogether or took long breaks as I did.
And possibly because in the end it was impossible to enforce and led to idiotic arguments over what and did not constitute "fair" and or "gents".
I played both with and without Gent Rules and while I must say some of the Gents were both good players and nice, many were just as jerkwadish as the tongue-in-lips-squint-eyed-kill-you-at-costs guys. In fact the latter at least didn't mind when you totally smashed their plans. Usually. Play a Myojin of Night in a Gents game and youd be bbqed.
I am sorry your experiences in Juff/CDCP was so negative. It does happen unfortunately. Law of the internet and all. There are still people who behave that way. And some are pretty old timer and or well known. Thankfully most are pretty nice or at least keep their yelling on their side of the screen.
My city is far from any communication routes. We don't have roads or railroads to mainland. There's also no cable connections, so we get internet by satellite. And that's expensive, or so they say.
After reading your response and re-reading what I originally wrote, I think the memories of a few particularly bad experiences were preventing me from being completely rational. Most of the people in JuFF are decent human beings, and I've had fun matches with some really cool people. A lot of opponents did not have a problem with my decks, and some even complimented me. The thing is, if you're playing a dozen or so games in a night, you are very likely to run into an abusive opponent when you play the type of decks that I prefer.
I play most of my Magic after work. I'm often exhausted and stressed when I sit down. All I want to do is relax and unwind. Bad experiences get to me more than they should when I'm like that; often times enough to ruin my night if things haven't been going my way for a few games already. I know that it shouldn't. I tell myself to just block that person and move on with my night, but for whatever reason I can't let it go when I'm already in a bad mood.
It has also been my experience over years of playing MODO that the absolute most abusive behavior is found in JuFF, and the Casual Decks room before that. While there are undoubtedly some bad apples TP and tournaments, it is mostly limited to stuff like "OMG what a sack", "you only won because i got flooded/screwed", etc., and that's the end of it. Whereas in JuFF I actually had someone go on a tirade about how he was going to report me for playing Flametongue Kavu when he specifically said no control.
I think the root of the problem is a combination of 2 things. First, everyone's definition of casual is different. To me it's any deck that is not tournament worthy and any card that is not reasonably capable of dominating a game on its own. To others, anything that will disrupt the opponent is not casual. There is, of course, no official definition nor widely accepted unwritten one. This is a situation that inevitably leads to disputes, which are magnified by the Greater Internet Jerkwad Theory (normal person + audience + anonymity = total jerkwad). There are few if any ramifications for acting out, and some people take full advantage of that.
I found one more problem with new client, aside of personal preferences and bugs. This problem may sound like nothing, but for me and my buddies that's the real issue. I'm talking about huge internet traffic. Yes, new client generates x10 to x20 times more traffic, than v3. It may consume from 100 to 200 MB per draft, while v3 generates about 10 MB. So what's with that? You see, it's hard to believe, but there's still some places at Earth, where traffic is an issue. In my hometown, the best internet option costs 1$ for 10 MB. So, with new client, to play a draft or even constructed event, I must pay actual event cost to Wizards + 20$ to provider.
I don't know, why new client is so traffic unwise. I believe it's because of card pictures. With v3, pictures was on client's side, and now it seems to be always loaded from server. As a system engineer I think this solution is just unwise, and as a player I want to at least be able to choose to upload all pictures once with update, like in v3 (as we here have some free, but slow internet options, it's so slow, so you totally cannot play online with it, but it's ok when you need to download something big enough).
Things getting worse, if you count, that at my place there is no competitive magic at all. We have a small friendly MTG community, that can support fun FNMs. But our only option for competitive Magic is MTGO. Or should I say "was". Cause with new client, I can hardly imagine to play in any more. And all my friends feels the same way.
It's also in the Manaless Dredge decks as a Dread Return target. He'll dump the entire deck into the graveyard, a position from which winning is academic for the Dredge pilot.
Heh I guess I am a "fair" player then. :p I don't agree about the nature of Juff players. You do get spoilsports and sore losers but Ive seen those guys in TP and in tourney too.
Many JuFF players do set rules before they start. And adhering to those rules changes the formats they play. And there are jackhats who feel they are justified in going off on their opponents when they experience "bad" magic. (See my examples above.)
But there are just as many who will face whatever without complaint. The one thing about Juff that you don't get in TP as much are the singleton games. Most players do not seem to want to play matches. Sideboards are a sophistication for their decks that they don't care for. Again as a generalization this isn't entirely true but it is more so than the abuser/complainer/rage quitter ones.
Btw I have certainly conceded games that were lost and had my opponent think I was complaining about the harshness of their deck. It is sometimes just prudent to not waste time when you know your deck isn't built to handle a broken strategy.
That is the thing. It is one thing to be savvy about LD and Counters and Hand destruction but if your deck doesn't recover then the game is over, regardless of personal attitude. I applaud those who concede in the light of wanting to have fun playing more games.
Balustrade Spy nearly made my Top 10, he sees fringe Legacy play in the "Oops, All Spells!" deck. The deck is a bad Charbelcher basically, weak to hate Belcher isn't. But it does show up in Legacy, and can win smaller tournaments.
First off great article Gwyned as usual! Thank you for all you do for Pauper and the community!
Second I think Hearthstones interface while nice and smooth actually distracts from being able to take the game seriously. It seems so cartoonist and goofy.
Plus the oversimplification of the mechanics seems dull to me. I'm sure it's a fun game, and people are perhaps more willing to try a new game in the face of V.4 going wide, it just seems nuts and bolts less then Magic in every way.
Sure the interface is better, but the most popular version of Magical interface is a folder up table in a game store. Sure Hearthstone is Freeish, but you are putting in more time to get cards for a vastly simplified game.
TL:DR Hearthstone is cheaper and Prettier but Magic is still the best game out there.
Admittedly, I do not frequent the JuFF room, and by that I mean I avoid it like the plague. My philosophy has always been "if it's legal, play it". I have never had a problem playing against counters, land destruction, discard or whatever you want to throw at me. If I'm a good enough deck builder and player, I'll figure out a way to overcome it, if not, I've learned something and will be better prepared next time. I've even come to appreciate the skill in playing around Wasteland and knowing how to sequence my spells against permission so that the one I really want resolves. In turn, I refuse to constrain my decks to strategies deemed "fun" by Joe Casual. It was my experience that most of the JuFF folks do not share my perspective, and many can be quite abusive when you counter their Bogardan Hellkite or wipe their board with Pernicious Deed then Hymn the remainder of their hand. I made the leap from casual to competitive play in large part because I was tired of the griefing.
That said, my opinion on TNN's viability is from a strictly tournament player's perspective. Against the vast majority of top decks, he's essentially a blank piece of cardboard that pitches to Force of Will. If, however, you're playing against mostly creature-based strategies, he's an all-star and I'd be hard pressed to play a blue deck without him. And you're 100% correct that he's insane with Auras and Equipment, which is why you'll see him side-by-side with Stoneforge Mystic quite frequently in Legacy.
I'm also not surprised that you haven't seen the Landstill, Blue Angels, or Survival decks. A large part of the appeal of Vintage is going broken, and those are some of the most fair (by Vintage standards anyway) decks that you can play. A lot of people play because they want to be able to combo off on turn 1, take infinite turns, or pop Emrakul/BSC into play by turn 2. In contrast, the decks you mentioned win with cards like Faerie Conclave, Restoration Angel and Vengevine. They're effective, but not what Vintage is known for.
First of thanks for the obviously well thought out comment. You present us with a lot of information to absorb. Those forums sound like several forums run for Roguelikes that I frequent.
You may know more about TNN's impact on the format. I haven't seen enough vintage games in recent years to be a good judge though I played a fair amount of Classic. I have seen quite a lot of creature based stuff in Juff so maybe that is where TNN shines in the format. (Casual Play.) I imagine without having to worry about facing a .5 tier deck (better than the usual tier 1 stuff :p) there is a lot more freedom to be creative with creatures and thus having a nutty one like TNN is more advantageous. Particularly in something like Auras.
Interestingly Ive seen no toolbox other than my own, no landstill, no blue angels, and few of the combo decks other than Storm. Lots of Aggro white, black, white & black, green + other, blue red, lots of control and tempo control, a whole lot of good stuff control (take a bunch of win cons (timevault/key for example) and put it in a control shell.
Turn 1, Lotus, mox, mox, fetch (getting Underground Sea) is almost a song by how regular you can encounter it in JuFF.
That sounds like a really cool idea, maybe as an "pre-modern" format where the card pool could be every core set from 7th Edition and every block from Onslaught and back. For this, I wouldn't count VMA as a set, but would go by when the original paper card was printed. So Power, Bazaar, Workshop, etc. would all be legal, but Jace, Dack and Council's Judgment would not.
I'm sure, though, that there's no shortage of information and decklists from that time out there on Google. Off the top of my head, I remember Hulk Smash!, Gro-A-Tog, U/R Fish, Dragon, and Stax being the decks to beat in Vintage.
The one thing that will keep people coming back to MODO is simple: it's Magic. No other CCG out there, digital or otherwise, offers the depth and complexity that this one does. I've tried Hearthstone as well. The interface is just head and shoulders above anything that WotC has ever tried to do in pretty much every conceivable way. The gameplay, however, I could only describe as "Magic for Dummies". It felt like My opponent and I were just flinging creatures at each other and hoping for the best. There are no combat tricks, no mana denial, no permission, and very little removal or direct damage. Basically, it lacks the meaningful interactions that make Magic fun.
First off, anyone considering taking up competitive Vintage should do it. I've been having more fun playing Magic the past few weeks than I have since the first time I killed someone with a ChannelBall back in the 5th grade. The games can be swingy and broken, but that's what makes it so much fun. Oddly enough, the format is quite well balanced at the moment, and there's at least one viable deck in pretty much every archetype one can imagine.
Aggro: G/W Hatebears
Control: Landstill, Blue Angels
Combo: Storm
Aggro-Control: Fish (BUG or Noble/Bant), Merfolk
Aggro-Combo: Dredge
Combo-Control: Oath, Tezzerator, Welder
Aggro-Combo-Control: Bomberman
Prison: Espresso Stax
Aggro-Prison: Martello Shops
Aggro-Combo-Prison: Metalworker MUD
Toolbox: Survival of the Fittest (It's making a comeback)
Simply put, there is no other format with a metagame this diverse. Also, for anyone looking to get into Vintage, www.themanadrain.com is going to be by far your best source of information. Beware, though, that is is a strictly moderated forum. The players who run it have a high standard of quality when it comes to posting and a clearly defined set of rules. Bad ideas or posts with little thought and effort put into them are quickly and often harshly criticized. It may come off as elitist, but it is their method of maintaining productive discussions, and it works. My advice is to take the time to read over their forums and especially their rules before registering an account ans posting.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with you about TNN in Vintage. The reason it's such a powerhouse in Legacy is that it's a very creature-centric format. TNN meaningfully interacts with those decks by either crippling their ability to attack or punching through a gummed up board. The vast majority of Vintage decks, however, can just go over top of the infamous Merfolk Rogue. Blightsteel, Tendrils, Vault/Key, Steel Hellkite, Zombie Token swarms, or even a hoarde of Islandwalkers: none of them care about TNN being in play and all of their decks have a way to punch through counterspells, whether it's their own permission, mana denial, or the ability to flat out ignore them. The only decks that actually have trouble with TNN are Hatebears and Fish.
That's certainly a deck building challenge but it is not an easy thing to do since there is no filter for it in MTGO and I suspect it would be a pain to implement on Gatherling. OTOH you could always mention it to dabil (the main guy there.)
3 years seems a bit too short a time span. I think it would be more interesting if it was everything but the last 10 years worth of sets. Call it Vintage Antiques. (Since it would have be done in the vintage filter.
Also would you count VMA as a new set or an old one (since it is almost all old reprints)?
Can you add Curse of Misfortunes to the bugged list plz. When you choose a curse with it to attach to another player, it says no valid target and it goes back to it's previous zone. Happens with all curses you try to fetch with it. Reported it multiple times over the past few weeks, they don't seem to care to fix it.
Thanks Pete, as always for continuing one of the most useful articles on the game. Second, and this is kind of random but with VMA got me thinking...has any of our player run event leaders tinkered with a "throwback" magic idea...or queried WoTC about this type of filter?
My definition/desire:
Throwback magic = A magic format that has an age limit. Like nothing newer than 3 years or printed after Shards of Alara, etc. etc. etc.
I would very much love to get into some games that require folks to use the older stuff again, with the current set power creeps so many of my beloved oldies are simply obsolete and while I appreciate that the game has to evolve and I don't begrudge Standard, who's going to play Sulfurous Springs when Blood Crypt is available? Or Phantom Monster when Voyager Drake is around? Probably just my nostalgia kicking in, but hey, I've been playing since 1996.
I think a looter effect is need in the deck (also consider Krovikan Sorcerer) Gush should not be more than a 2 of because you lose tempo in land on board if drawn early and can't cast normally until T5 anyhow.
I would rather see Waterfront bouncer than Aquamoeba. Bouncer can block and bounce to neutralize 2 threats.
Also Obsessive Search is deck thinning possibility.
You have to consider whether you are playing a control deck or an aggro deck.
You also have no flyers/flyer protection in this deck. Could consider Skywing Aven for this role. Without a flier, it may be difficult to get ninjas into play.
With VMA so popular, I am thinking of selling my Zen fetches to buy true duals...
You should see Juff...plenty of top tier decks in there. Well some are definitely only tier 2 but many are winners. And then you get the total opposite spectrum. Badly thrown together ideas in haphazard way over minimum deck size lists. Ive seen a resurgence of Battle of Wits in Juff of late because who doesn't like playing 250+ card decks?
I do think the investment idea takes a lot of time. Only people willing to pay top dollar will jump in immediately but since there are plenty of deck types to go around people will try stuff out. Until they get discouraged enough. I expect that to happen more in Juff than TP but probably will happen in both.
Thanks Kuriboh! Vintage has been alot of fun so far.
The guys on the Mana Drain and Menendian on So Many Insane Plays talk about formats like this. Only pre-Mirage or Only pre-Ice Age etc. I think they play with current rules, which obviously you'd have to do if you were doing this online. It's an interesting way to re-visit those old cards with 20 years of Magic knowledge and theory. Because in the early 90s nobody knew how to play.
It's been really nice to see people playing uncompetitive decks in TP. Some people are using shock lands or M10 duals. This means that people are checking out the format and playing it even if they aren't super invested. For so long with Classic, it was only the most invested people who were playing, so you only saw the best decks from the same players. All these tier 2 and 3 decks are a sign of a much healthier format to me.
$1 for 10MB is crazy high, and I thought US internet was the worst value in the world...sorry for you, man...
Thanks for the contact name/site Paul, I will check into that and send it over to him. I agree on the challenges, especially without a built in filter. The "3 years" was totally arbitrary, I really haven't done much "research" to see what sets/pools would be the healthiest.
Actually while I tend to be a softy in terms of Jerkwads, there are serious risks in acting out on MTGO. Considering the value of some digital collections, acting that way just seems borderline idiotic. Sure, sure when we get mad and have no impulse control or self discipline or any strong parental influences in our lives, saying awful things to people who literally did nothing to us is very tempting. But losing your ability to play completely is a real consequence.
And you are right that people do tend to be jerkwads more online than irl because fear of physical retribution is probably a stronger conditioner of social behavior than threats of financial ruin. However, the Nth time someone behaves that way it becomes passe. At some point you accept it as a fact of online life. If it really bothers you then you can use the tools for reporting to make sure they don't do it again.
I've seen people totally go off not only in TP but in Tourney where they just would not stop the abuse.
Also Rofl @ FTK as Control. Someone was having a really bad day...
You may be right about the core of the problem being that people have different perspectives but in general most people on MTGO accept certain givens.
I don't know if you remember "Gent Rules" that was a thing for a while in 2.0 and earlier. It was an agreement by some fairly well known players (whom others aped) to only play certain kinds of decks (no massive ld, excessive counters, boardwipes, hand destruction, etc). Sort of the precursor to the "social contract" stuff that came from EDH. Eventually "Gent Rules" disappeared. I am not sure why it ended but I suspect because a number of players who supported it stopped playing altogether or took long breaks as I did.
And possibly because in the end it was impossible to enforce and led to idiotic arguments over what and did not constitute "fair" and or "gents".
I played both with and without Gent Rules and while I must say some of the Gents were both good players and nice, many were just as jerkwadish as the tongue-in-lips-squint-eyed-kill-you-at-costs guys. In fact the latter at least didn't mind when you totally smashed their plans. Usually. Play a Myojin of Night in a Gents game and youd be bbqed.
I am sorry your experiences in Juff/CDCP was so negative. It does happen unfortunately. Law of the internet and all. There are still people who behave that way. And some are pretty old timer and or well known. Thankfully most are pretty nice or at least keep their yelling on their side of the screen.
My city is far from any communication routes. We don't have roads or railroads to mainland. There's also no cable connections, so we get internet by satellite. And that's expensive, or so they say.
After reading your response and re-reading what I originally wrote, I think the memories of a few particularly bad experiences were preventing me from being completely rational. Most of the people in JuFF are decent human beings, and I've had fun matches with some really cool people. A lot of opponents did not have a problem with my decks, and some even complimented me. The thing is, if you're playing a dozen or so games in a night, you are very likely to run into an abusive opponent when you play the type of decks that I prefer.
I play most of my Magic after work. I'm often exhausted and stressed when I sit down. All I want to do is relax and unwind. Bad experiences get to me more than they should when I'm like that; often times enough to ruin my night if things haven't been going my way for a few games already. I know that it shouldn't. I tell myself to just block that person and move on with my night, but for whatever reason I can't let it go when I'm already in a bad mood.
It has also been my experience over years of playing MODO that the absolute most abusive behavior is found in JuFF, and the Casual Decks room before that. While there are undoubtedly some bad apples TP and tournaments, it is mostly limited to stuff like "OMG what a sack", "you only won because i got flooded/screwed", etc., and that's the end of it. Whereas in JuFF I actually had someone go on a tirade about how he was going to report me for playing Flametongue Kavu when he specifically said no control.
I think the root of the problem is a combination of 2 things. First, everyone's definition of casual is different. To me it's any deck that is not tournament worthy and any card that is not reasonably capable of dominating a game on its own. To others, anything that will disrupt the opponent is not casual. There is, of course, no official definition nor widely accepted unwritten one. This is a situation that inevitably leads to disputes, which are magnified by the Greater Internet Jerkwad Theory (normal person + audience + anonymity = total jerkwad). There are few if any ramifications for acting out, and some people take full advantage of that.
Your isp charges you for bandwidth by the mb? thats pretty outrageous.
I found one more problem with new client, aside of personal preferences and bugs. This problem may sound like nothing, but for me and my buddies that's the real issue. I'm talking about huge internet traffic. Yes, new client generates x10 to x20 times more traffic, than v3. It may consume from 100 to 200 MB per draft, while v3 generates about 10 MB. So what's with that? You see, it's hard to believe, but there's still some places at Earth, where traffic is an issue. In my hometown, the best internet option costs 1$ for 10 MB. So, with new client, to play a draft or even constructed event, I must pay actual event cost to Wizards + 20$ to provider.
I don't know, why new client is so traffic unwise. I believe it's because of card pictures. With v3, pictures was on client's side, and now it seems to be always loaded from server. As a system engineer I think this solution is just unwise, and as a player I want to at least be able to choose to upload all pictures once with update, like in v3 (as we here have some free, but slow internet options, it's so slow, so you totally cannot play online with it, but it's ok when you need to download something big enough).
Things getting worse, if you count, that at my place there is no competitive magic at all. We have a small friendly MTG community, that can support fun FNMs. But our only option for competitive Magic is MTGO. Or should I say "was". Cause with new client, I can hardly imagine to play in any more. And all my friends feels the same way.
It's also in the Manaless Dredge decks as a Dread Return target. He'll dump the entire deck into the graveyard, a position from which winning is academic for the Dredge pilot.
Heh I guess I am a "fair" player then. :p I don't agree about the nature of Juff players. You do get spoilsports and sore losers but Ive seen those guys in TP and in tourney too.
Many JuFF players do set rules before they start. And adhering to those rules changes the formats they play. And there are jackhats who feel they are justified in going off on their opponents when they experience "bad" magic. (See my examples above.)
But there are just as many who will face whatever without complaint. The one thing about Juff that you don't get in TP as much are the singleton games. Most players do not seem to want to play matches. Sideboards are a sophistication for their decks that they don't care for. Again as a generalization this isn't entirely true but it is more so than the abuser/complainer/rage quitter ones.
Btw I have certainly conceded games that were lost and had my opponent think I was complaining about the harshness of their deck. It is sometimes just prudent to not waste time when you know your deck isn't built to handle a broken strategy.
That is the thing. It is one thing to be savvy about LD and Counters and Hand destruction but if your deck doesn't recover then the game is over, regardless of personal attitude. I applaud those who concede in the light of wanting to have fun playing more games.
Balustrade Spy nearly made my Top 10, he sees fringe Legacy play in the "Oops, All Spells!" deck. The deck is a bad Charbelcher basically, weak to hate Belcher isn't. But it does show up in Legacy, and can win smaller tournaments.
First off great article Gwyned as usual! Thank you for all you do for Pauper and the community!
Second I think Hearthstones interface while nice and smooth actually distracts from being able to take the game seriously. It seems so cartoonist and goofy.
Plus the oversimplification of the mechanics seems dull to me. I'm sure it's a fun game, and people are perhaps more willing to try a new game in the face of V.4 going wide, it just seems nuts and bolts less then Magic in every way.
Sure the interface is better, but the most popular version of Magical interface is a folder up table in a game store. Sure Hearthstone is Freeish, but you are putting in more time to get cards for a vastly simplified game.
TL:DR Hearthstone is cheaper and Prettier but Magic is still the best game out there.
Admittedly, I do not frequent the JuFF room, and by that I mean I avoid it like the plague. My philosophy has always been "if it's legal, play it". I have never had a problem playing against counters, land destruction, discard or whatever you want to throw at me. If I'm a good enough deck builder and player, I'll figure out a way to overcome it, if not, I've learned something and will be better prepared next time. I've even come to appreciate the skill in playing around Wasteland and knowing how to sequence my spells against permission so that the one I really want resolves. In turn, I refuse to constrain my decks to strategies deemed "fun" by Joe Casual. It was my experience that most of the JuFF folks do not share my perspective, and many can be quite abusive when you counter their Bogardan Hellkite or wipe their board with Pernicious Deed then Hymn the remainder of their hand. I made the leap from casual to competitive play in large part because I was tired of the griefing.
That said, my opinion on TNN's viability is from a strictly tournament player's perspective. Against the vast majority of top decks, he's essentially a blank piece of cardboard that pitches to Force of Will. If, however, you're playing against mostly creature-based strategies, he's an all-star and I'd be hard pressed to play a blue deck without him. And you're 100% correct that he's insane with Auras and Equipment, which is why you'll see him side-by-side with Stoneforge Mystic quite frequently in Legacy.
I'm also not surprised that you haven't seen the Landstill, Blue Angels, or Survival decks. A large part of the appeal of Vintage is going broken, and those are some of the most fair (by Vintage standards anyway) decks that you can play. A lot of people play because they want to be able to combo off on turn 1, take infinite turns, or pop Emrakul/BSC into play by turn 2. In contrast, the decks you mentioned win with cards like Faerie Conclave, Restoration Angel and Vengevine. They're effective, but not what Vintage is known for.
First of thanks for the obviously well thought out comment. You present us with a lot of information to absorb. Those forums sound like several forums run for Roguelikes that I frequent.
You may know more about TNN's impact on the format. I haven't seen enough vintage games in recent years to be a good judge though I played a fair amount of Classic. I have seen quite a lot of creature based stuff in Juff so maybe that is where TNN shines in the format. (Casual Play.) I imagine without having to worry about facing a .5 tier deck (better than the usual tier 1 stuff :p) there is a lot more freedom to be creative with creatures and thus having a nutty one like TNN is more advantageous. Particularly in something like Auras.
Interestingly Ive seen no toolbox other than my own, no landstill, no blue angels, and few of the combo decks other than Storm. Lots of Aggro white, black, white & black, green + other, blue red, lots of control and tempo control, a whole lot of good stuff control (take a bunch of win cons (timevault/key for example) and put it in a control shell.
Turn 1, Lotus, mox, mox, fetch (getting Underground Sea) is almost a song by how regular you can encounter it in JuFF.
That sounds like a really cool idea, maybe as an "pre-modern" format where the card pool could be every core set from 7th Edition and every block from Onslaught and back. For this, I wouldn't count VMA as a set, but would go by when the original paper card was printed. So Power, Bazaar, Workshop, etc. would all be legal, but Jace, Dack and Council's Judgment would not.
I'm sure, though, that there's no shortage of information and decklists from that time out there on Google. Off the top of my head, I remember Hulk Smash!, Gro-A-Tog, U/R Fish, Dragon, and Stax being the decks to beat in Vintage.
The one thing that will keep people coming back to MODO is simple: it's Magic. No other CCG out there, digital or otherwise, offers the depth and complexity that this one does. I've tried Hearthstone as well. The interface is just head and shoulders above anything that WotC has ever tried to do in pretty much every conceivable way. The gameplay, however, I could only describe as "Magic for Dummies". It felt like My opponent and I were just flinging creatures at each other and hoping for the best. There are no combat tricks, no mana denial, no permission, and very little removal or direct damage. Basically, it lacks the meaningful interactions that make Magic fun.
First off, anyone considering taking up competitive Vintage should do it. I've been having more fun playing Magic the past few weeks than I have since the first time I killed someone with a ChannelBall back in the 5th grade. The games can be swingy and broken, but that's what makes it so much fun. Oddly enough, the format is quite well balanced at the moment, and there's at least one viable deck in pretty much every archetype one can imagine.
Aggro: G/W Hatebears
Control: Landstill, Blue Angels
Combo: Storm
Aggro-Control: Fish (BUG or Noble/Bant), Merfolk
Aggro-Combo: Dredge
Combo-Control: Oath, Tezzerator, Welder
Aggro-Combo-Control: Bomberman
Prison: Espresso Stax
Aggro-Prison: Martello Shops
Aggro-Combo-Prison: Metalworker MUD
Toolbox: Survival of the Fittest (It's making a comeback)
Simply put, there is no other format with a metagame this diverse. Also, for anyone looking to get into Vintage, www.themanadrain.com is going to be by far your best source of information. Beware, though, that is is a strictly moderated forum. The players who run it have a high standard of quality when it comes to posting and a clearly defined set of rules. Bad ideas or posts with little thought and effort put into them are quickly and often harshly criticized. It may come off as elitist, but it is their method of maintaining productive discussions, and it works. My advice is to take the time to read over their forums and especially their rules before registering an account ans posting.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with you about TNN in Vintage. The reason it's such a powerhouse in Legacy is that it's a very creature-centric format. TNN meaningfully interacts with those decks by either crippling their ability to attack or punching through a gummed up board. The vast majority of Vintage decks, however, can just go over top of the infamous Merfolk Rogue. Blightsteel, Tendrils, Vault/Key, Steel Hellkite, Zombie Token swarms, or even a hoarde of Islandwalkers: none of them care about TNN being in play and all of their decks have a way to punch through counterspells, whether it's their own permission, mana denial, or the ability to flat out ignore them. The only decks that actually have trouble with TNN are Hatebears and Fish.
That's certainly a deck building challenge but it is not an easy thing to do since there is no filter for it in MTGO and I suspect it would be a pain to implement on Gatherling. OTOH you could always mention it to dabil (the main guy there.)
3 years seems a bit too short a time span. I think it would be more interesting if it was everything but the last 10 years worth of sets. Call it Vintage Antiques. (Since it would have be done in the vintage filter.
Also would you count VMA as a new set or an old one (since it is almost all old reprints)?
Can you add Curse of Misfortunes to the bugged list plz. When you choose a curse with it to attach to another player, it says no valid target and it goes back to it's previous zone. Happens with all curses you try to fetch with it. Reported it multiple times over the past few weeks, they don't seem to care to fix it.
Thanks Pete, as always for continuing one of the most useful articles on the game. Second, and this is kind of random but with VMA got me thinking...has any of our player run event leaders tinkered with a "throwback" magic idea...or queried WoTC about this type of filter?
My definition/desire:
Throwback magic = A magic format that has an age limit. Like nothing newer than 3 years or printed after Shards of Alara, etc. etc. etc.
I would very much love to get into some games that require folks to use the older stuff again, with the current set power creeps so many of my beloved oldies are simply obsolete and while I appreciate that the game has to evolve and I don't begrudge Standard, who's going to play Sulfurous Springs when Blood Crypt is available? Or Phantom Monster when Voyager Drake is around? Probably just my nostalgia kicking in, but hey, I've been playing since 1996.