Not really the fan of van Lunen's list.
Although U Tron is great in the way that there are several ways to configure it. Dunno if Platinum-lists had any success lately, but shocktroopa's and similar lists finished in prizes in dailies regularly. There was an event where shocktroopa, checoso and me all 4-0'd the same daily with variations of the same list :) It is a good budget deck, provided you don't run into the worst matchups too much. Considering U Tron as a backup deck for local PTQ if my primary deck of choice would suddenly get banhammered or something :)
I was thrilled to see these videos. Now we just need a masques flashback for more card art critique hilarity. Hope to catch you in a vintage DE before v4 drops!
I had a real issue with scapeshift before moving to this list, the pacts really help a ton.
I like troopas list, but even with just an 8 card main deck difference I think it is unfair to call them the same decks. JVLs is a platinum angel control deck, troops I think is a toolbox control. If that makes any sense at all!
Loving the deck, I also think it is a great choice for PTQ season. Your sideboarding matchup for Jund is interesting and I agree that it might be correct. Reid Duke refers to this sort of proactive approach as "No training-wheels". I prefer the cautious approach with the Negates and Dismembers but maybe this approach is too slow and reactive.
I also want to test with a version that uses a fabricate toolbox. For instance, run topor orb and other one _of artifacts in the board for certain matches.
Nice article. And I've been playing blue tron for a few weeks. I had been wanting to try modern for a while.
I have three different versions saved , one of which is shoktroopa's. I have to pick up 2 more platinum angels to try van lunen's list. I have been trying the pact of negations, and that card has won me games against scapeshift due to them not planning for it in the counter war as they try to resolve scapeshift .
If you are building around Purphoros you could even have Young Pyromancer and then Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command just to have lots of ways to make multiple creatures. Then you could run Spectral and Triplicate Spirits to round it out. Though I guess that's slightly less resilient to removal than a Genesis Chamber base.
The ability to add a second blue mana on the same turn with Oboro has some pretty important corner cases, sometimes you need to remand a spell on your turn and lack the extra blue, sometimes you need it cast a spell and return to have an untapped blue land.
If coldsteel did not come into play tapped I would consider it, the life loss is not that big of a deal, and I have considered mind stone in that slot.
I do like the idea of another west in the deck though. It's been super good.
Mill is prominent in my playgroup, and I need to stay gassed. One wasn't cutting it, three were too many. I'd cut 'em entirely if I went to FNM with it.
I think you could try two slightly different routes with this deck. One is going the Purphoros route. As it is, it might be correct to just use 1, but a version of the deck that uses 3 may be conceived. You'd need some other token generators in main deck, possibly Spectral Procession and/or the new Triplicate Spirits with convoke.
The other route is to keep the Pridemate/Champion routine fueled by Norin and the Sisters, and add green for Rancor (or maybe even one Nylea).
You can even try both and add green for both Rancor and Awakening Zone (which is a powerful card that never finds a home).
Those first three picks didn't lead you into Goblins? Piledriver, Warchief, and Beetleback! Plus later you could have added Flametongue Kavu and Rorix Bladewing. That deck would have been great!
Purphoros can be a win con sitting on the board as long as you have a continue flow of tokens. They don't even have to survive as long as they can deal damage on entry. That said, get 5 tokens down with some mana up and have them cross the red zone and thats all she wrote because Purphoros also has a mass pump that people often forget.
I'd say it takes a certain state of mind to use the God appropriately though. It may be that this deck isn't quite the one because of the play style it encourages.
The deck is definitely one that can be frustrating to play against. Knowing that attacking will only lead to more tokens being generated and life being gained can be very frustrating. You're right that it's these little incremental advantages that really make the deck tick.
In terms of long games, you're right that the deck likes a long game in the sense that your board tends to become increasingly favourable the longer things go, however, my concern is with the inability to close games. I think in my match against RUG Twin there was a game where I had to upperhand for a very long time but my inability to finish things off just let my opponent draw Splinter Twin and win. I think the matchup against Birthing Pod is quite good until they stick a Birthing Pod or find their combo pieces - which is more likely to happen if you can't finish the game quickly. Even outside of the unfair/combo decks giving your opponent turns to draw cards means they are more likely to find Anger of the Gods or Oblivion Stone or various other cards that can lose you the game.
I agree the deck has a lot of potential and it's almost funny how effective Norin the Wary can be in a format as powerful as Modern. I'm sure the lists for this deck could become more tuned, however, I just don't think the cards are quite there to make it a real contender. Let's face it, cards like Mentor of the Meek and Purphoros were not exactly pushed for power level. Imagine if Purphoros cost 2 mana or even 1 mana - then we might be talking. It would be nice to see more support for this kind of archetype.
Immediately after this I played a few matches with my old Soul Sisters list and didn't have a very good time. I'm sure it used to be at least a minor contender but it's fair to say it was never Tier 1. The reason I say I prefer Soul Sisters is that it closes out the game which is my main gripe with this deck. The combos are very cool but it's just not very good at closing things out even once it is in the ascendancy.
Mentor of the Meek is one of the cards I was siding it fairly frequently, though 2 Purphoros were always the first to go, I think I usually kept at least one in. For me it's one of the least essential pieces but I could be wrong. It's fairly awful spending 3 mana for a 2/2 that sometimes provides no benefit but I suppose that's the risk of the card. I had a game against Tron where Mentor was insane but I think against removal heavy decks he doesn't tend to last long. Maybe I should have stuck with him a bit more but I haven't had too much luck with him.
I've had a few people ask me about doing live videos. I'm not afraid to do them, though they do have their own unique set of challenges, I'm more concerned about my laptop's ability to record and upload them. Uploading the 6-10 minute videos I currently put up can take 20-30 mins so I can't imagine what a full length match might take. I'm definitely willing to give it a go though so I'll see what I can do.
Yeah, V4 features a few strict improvements on V3 (see also things like tapping group of lands together, and stacking tokens). Which is encouraging, yet maddening at the same time, because it highlights how they actually knew certain things could/had to be improved, whereas in other cases they appear to be clueless. Maybe certain developers were MTGO players, while others weren't? Maybe they got some of these things right by mere chance? Hard to tell.
I also think some of the discrepancies in the experience are due to players using different builds of the client. Fixes have happened furiously lately, for obvious reasons. So it's fairly possible the selection didn't work on every card two weeks ago, but it does now. I don't think I ever launched the beta without the client performing an update of some sort.
1) I was referring to the fact that I had seen Michael Jacob use the Beta Client and what happened to him with a decklist did not happen to me. (http://www.twitch.tv/darkest_mage/b/541768222 03:15:00 for reference) I wanted to see if what happened to him was normal, or if it was different. He got a decklist from the mothership and when he opened it on the Beta it had the entire 75 in the sideboard. He then tried to "Select All", then move it to the maindeck, but not all of it went to the main. I was trying to compare his experience to mine, and that's where I get different experiences from. I apologize if I wasn't clear on that.
2 & 3) I didn't realize you could save them as .txt files, that's good to know, and I definitely agree that the label process is almost useless. I understand people use deckboxes in real life, but there really isn't a need for them online.
4 & 5) I don't think I could handle making a deck from scratch, I take way too long to do that unless I have the decklist imprinted in my head. But I could definitely see how it would take so much longer to do so on V4. I didn't know about that feature, so I didn't know you could just replace them with versions that you own. That's actually an upgrade from V3 (at least I don't think V3 had that option). It would really annoy me when I pulled up a decklist and got basic lands that I didn't own + it telling me I didn't own a card when I had an older version of it.
6) That's a very good point. It's always annoying to sort by CMC and then have to resort because it just defaults to sort by color on V3.
Thank you for the comments! I won't pretend that I know everything about V4, I'm just trying to report what I see and use that as an avenue to get other people to talk about their experiences.
So, to tell it shortly, the color of the first land is NOT a dead give-away, because Pod decks are likely to feature multiple splashes (you can have Thoughtseize in Kiki too, and red in Melira for post-board Slaughter Games), and the best pilots change battle plan accordingly to the particular hand they kept.
Not that knowing their endgame (assuming they have just one; Kiki decks usually have three, with pieces of different colors) in the first few turns really does much for you, since the answers and sideboard hate are pretty much the same, and their more usual interactions (such as Murderous Redcap) are shared by all versions, if they're not just unpredictable, because with Pod you can zig when they expect for you to zag.
I think it's preference, I prefer Van Lunen's list.
Not really the fan of van Lunen's list.
Although U Tron is great in the way that there are several ways to configure it. Dunno if Platinum-lists had any success lately, but shocktroopa's and similar lists finished in prizes in dailies regularly. There was an event where shocktroopa, checoso and me all 4-0'd the same daily with variations of the same list :) It is a good budget deck, provided you don't run into the worst matchups too much. Considering U Tron as a backup deck for local PTQ if my primary deck of choice would suddenly get banhammered or something :)
I was thrilled to see these videos. Now we just need a masques flashback for more card art critique hilarity. Hope to catch you in a vintage DE before v4 drops!
It may not be right, but I feel just the minimum amount of changes are needed in the matchup. I also have a month or so to hash everything out :D
I like fabricate a lot, I like the idea of 4 fabricates even more sometimes :D
I had a real issue with scapeshift before moving to this list, the pacts really help a ton.
I like troopas list, but even with just an 8 card main deck difference I think it is unfair to call them the same decks. JVLs is a platinum angel control deck, troops I think is a toolbox control. If that makes any sense at all!
Loving the deck, I also think it is a great choice for PTQ season. Your sideboarding matchup for Jund is interesting and I agree that it might be correct. Reid Duke refers to this sort of proactive approach as "No training-wheels". I prefer the cautious approach with the Negates and Dismembers but maybe this approach is too slow and reactive.
Or really any RDW modeled deck will do but I do suggest having some Gorilla Shamans just in case. :)
I also want to test with a version that uses a fabricate toolbox. For instance, run topor orb and other one _of artifacts in the board for certain matches.
Nice article. And I've been playing blue tron for a few weeks. I had been wanting to try modern for a while.
I have three different versions saved , one of which is shoktroopa's. I have to pick up 2 more platinum angels to try van lunen's list. I have been trying the pact of negations, and that card has won me games against scapeshift due to them not planning for it in the counter war as they try to resolve scapeshift .
If you are building around Purphoros you could even have Young Pyromancer and then Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command just to have lots of ways to make multiple creatures. Then you could run Spectral and Triplicate Spirits to round it out. Though I guess that's slightly less resilient to removal than a Genesis Chamber base.
The ability to add a second blue mana on the same turn with Oboro has some pretty important corner cases, sometimes you need to remand a spell on your turn and lack the extra blue, sometimes you need it cast a spell and return to have an untapped blue land.
If coldsteel did not come into play tapped I would consider it, the life loss is not that big of a deal, and I have considered mind stone in that slot.
I do like the idea of another west in the deck though. It's been super good.
Mill is prominent in my playgroup, and I need to stay gassed. One wasn't cutting it, three were too many. I'd cut 'em entirely if I went to FNM with it.
But in most sideboard swaps the talismans are being taken out.
Other than the possibility of making double blue, what function does Oboro serve?
I watched the recorded matches, Match 1, Game 1 you cast talisman and did not use it T2
M1G3, why did you not use Tolaria West to find your missing tron land on T5? (or even a Pact)?
Personal feeling is I would like to have another T. West in the deck.
I think you could try two slightly different routes with this deck. One is going the Purphoros route. As it is, it might be correct to just use 1, but a version of the deck that uses 3 may be conceived. You'd need some other token generators in main deck, possibly Spectral Procession and/or the new Triplicate Spirits with convoke.
The other route is to keep the Pridemate/Champion routine fueled by Norin and the Sisters, and add green for Rancor (or maybe even one Nylea).
You can even try both and add green for both Rancor and Awakening Zone (which is a powerful card that never finds a home).
I won't suggest Bitterblossom just now. :)
Those first three picks didn't lead you into Goblins? Piledriver, Warchief, and Beetleback! Plus later you could have added Flametongue Kavu and Rorix Bladewing. That deck would have been great!
Two elixers of immortality?
Heart comes in to play tapped, that is a huge strike against it.
I like the list, but don't understand the use of the talisman over Coldsteel Heart, the only B mana I see in the list is the sideboard Dismember.
Purphoros can be a win con sitting on the board as long as you have a continue flow of tokens. They don't even have to survive as long as they can deal damage on entry. That said, get 5 tokens down with some mana up and have them cross the red zone and thats all she wrote because Purphoros also has a mass pump that people often forget.
I'd say it takes a certain state of mind to use the God appropriately though. It may be that this deck isn't quite the one because of the play style it encourages.
Thanks for the comment, Gio!
The deck is definitely one that can be frustrating to play against. Knowing that attacking will only lead to more tokens being generated and life being gained can be very frustrating. You're right that it's these little incremental advantages that really make the deck tick.
In terms of long games, you're right that the deck likes a long game in the sense that your board tends to become increasingly favourable the longer things go, however, my concern is with the inability to close games. I think in my match against RUG Twin there was a game where I had to upperhand for a very long time but my inability to finish things off just let my opponent draw Splinter Twin and win. I think the matchup against Birthing Pod is quite good until they stick a Birthing Pod or find their combo pieces - which is more likely to happen if you can't finish the game quickly. Even outside of the unfair/combo decks giving your opponent turns to draw cards means they are more likely to find Anger of the Gods or Oblivion Stone or various other cards that can lose you the game.
I agree the deck has a lot of potential and it's almost funny how effective Norin the Wary can be in a format as powerful as Modern. I'm sure the lists for this deck could become more tuned, however, I just don't think the cards are quite there to make it a real contender. Let's face it, cards like Mentor of the Meek and Purphoros were not exactly pushed for power level. Imagine if Purphoros cost 2 mana or even 1 mana - then we might be talking. It would be nice to see more support for this kind of archetype.
Thanks for the comment Kuma! Greatly appreciated.
Immediately after this I played a few matches with my old Soul Sisters list and didn't have a very good time. I'm sure it used to be at least a minor contender but it's fair to say it was never Tier 1. The reason I say I prefer Soul Sisters is that it closes out the game which is my main gripe with this deck. The combos are very cool but it's just not very good at closing things out even once it is in the ascendancy.
Mentor of the Meek is one of the cards I was siding it fairly frequently, though 2 Purphoros were always the first to go, I think I usually kept at least one in. For me it's one of the least essential pieces but I could be wrong. It's fairly awful spending 3 mana for a 2/2 that sometimes provides no benefit but I suppose that's the risk of the card. I had a game against Tron where Mentor was insane but I think against removal heavy decks he doesn't tend to last long. Maybe I should have stuck with him a bit more but I haven't had too much luck with him.
I've had a few people ask me about doing live videos. I'm not afraid to do them, though they do have their own unique set of challenges, I'm more concerned about my laptop's ability to record and upload them. Uploading the 6-10 minute videos I currently put up can take 20-30 mins so I can't imagine what a full length match might take. I'm definitely willing to give it a go though so I'll see what I can do.
Yeah, V4 features a few strict improvements on V3 (see also things like tapping group of lands together, and stacking tokens). Which is encouraging, yet maddening at the same time, because it highlights how they actually knew certain things could/had to be improved, whereas in other cases they appear to be clueless. Maybe certain developers were MTGO players, while others weren't? Maybe they got some of these things right by mere chance? Hard to tell.
I also think some of the discrepancies in the experience are due to players using different builds of the client. Fixes have happened furiously lately, for obvious reasons. So it's fairly possible the selection didn't work on every card two weeks ago, but it does now. I don't think I ever launched the beta without the client performing an update of some sort.
1) I was referring to the fact that I had seen Michael Jacob use the Beta Client and what happened to him with a decklist did not happen to me. (http://www.twitch.tv/darkest_mage/b/541768222 03:15:00 for reference) I wanted to see if what happened to him was normal, or if it was different. He got a decklist from the mothership and when he opened it on the Beta it had the entire 75 in the sideboard. He then tried to "Select All", then move it to the maindeck, but not all of it went to the main. I was trying to compare his experience to mine, and that's where I get different experiences from. I apologize if I wasn't clear on that.
2 & 3) I didn't realize you could save them as .txt files, that's good to know, and I definitely agree that the label process is almost useless. I understand people use deckboxes in real life, but there really isn't a need for them online.
4 & 5) I don't think I could handle making a deck from scratch, I take way too long to do that unless I have the decklist imprinted in my head. But I could definitely see how it would take so much longer to do so on V4. I didn't know about that feature, so I didn't know you could just replace them with versions that you own. That's actually an upgrade from V3 (at least I don't think V3 had that option). It would really annoy me when I pulled up a decklist and got basic lands that I didn't own + it telling me I didn't own a card when I had an older version of it.
6) That's a very good point. It's always annoying to sort by CMC and then have to resort because it just defaults to sort by color on V3.
Thank you for the comments! I won't pretend that I know everything about V4, I'm just trying to report what I see and use that as an avenue to get other people to talk about their experiences.
So, to tell it shortly, the color of the first land is NOT a dead give-away, because Pod decks are likely to feature multiple splashes (you can have Thoughtseize in Kiki too, and red in Melira for post-board Slaughter Games), and the best pilots change battle plan accordingly to the particular hand they kept.
Not that knowing their endgame (assuming they have just one; Kiki decks usually have three, with pieces of different colors) in the first few turns really does much for you, since the answers and sideboard hate are pretty much the same, and their more usual interactions (such as Murderous Redcap) are shared by all versions, if they're not just unpredictable, because with Pod you can zig when they expect for you to zag.