The same arguments for "the deck loses to this" also works for 12-post (Blood Moon), Second Sunrise (Leyline of the Void), and Blazing Shoal (Path to Exile). In magic, something else will always beat the best strategy. But will forcing decks to have lots of answers to stuff make those decks unable to beat anything else, or will you get a format where blue is the most played color because you more or less have to play control to stand a chance?
I think Jeskai Ascendancy and Treasure Cruise are headed for the ban bin. They might do it to Monastery Swiftspear too, if they use the same logic they did when they banned Wild Nacatl.
Morphed Exalted Angel on turn 3 only gives the opponent a narrow window to bolt her. Turn 4 is too late as she can flip faster than a bolt. (Gotta love the morph rules for that.)
I got to watch Elizabeth's fight with AJ and her deck was pretty cool. Spitemare, Reckoner and Wall of Hope all pulling in the same direction is way more than I'd come up with in my versions of the deck archetype. Oh look I wiped the board, got you down to 7 and gained 13 life all in one spell. :D
If the deck had a weakness it was the too few Acts redundancy. Blasphemous Act can end the game if you draw it. Not drawing it is bad. I probably would have forgone the spot removal in favor of Chain Reaction or Volcanic Fallout, or maybe even Starstorm. And I would have tried to squeeze in a few red draw cards. But regardless the deck was innovative and interesting and despite AJ being my bro, I was rooting for her to win.
Meh next time, It is awesome to have new blood bringing fresh perspectives to the tired old routine. Makes me wish I'd been up in time with a viable deck.
Pete is a guy that usually has a lot of patience with mtgo's problems and Wizards' mistakes. If he's angry at this I wouldn't doubt it's Wizards' fault.
He said everything else was working and it occured several times. It can't be on his end.
Hi Pete,
as always thank you for the article. makes Friday's journey home on the train so much more bearable.
Regarding your connectivity issues and the lag, how sure are you that it's entirely wizard's fault? I played all weekend, entering multiple draft and sealed release queues. I didn't experience any of the issues you mention. the client was responsive and not laggy in the slightest. My 80 card submission was down only to my inability to choose between Abzan and Mardu!
I'll admit I play from the UK (which should be somewhat laggier, given the inherent latency) and my broadband connection is considerably bigger than yours. But still, I feel I should have experienced some of your lag if it was coming from wizard's side.
There are many reasons for connection issues and it could still be all wizard's fault. Still I guess I'd like to know what you did to confirm it was their side. At the very least then, should I suffer the same I too can confirm with wizard's support it's not my fault when I complain as well...
The chat is really annoying. As a person who plays mulitplayer Commander there is a certain social aspect to most games. However, when I have to spend time trying to get the chat docked, and then finagling with it because it takes up too much of the screen to be able to see the battlefield, it's just another reason to keep me from playing.
I played against a nice Sultai/Temur Deck in a draft and got Villainous Wealth cast against my Mardu deck for 5 and lost my Act of Treason and Unyielding Krumar. Lucky for me he didn't cast it for 6 or I would have also been facing down my own Ponyback Brigade (and friends) instead of having it exiled. Needless to say it was soon gg.
You should be aware that this topic became a part of my next article here as I was writing it when your response came in. I used your response in particular as a launch point for the discussion. Should be out around Friday or so.
What is WotC going to do about it? The cynic in me says "nothing". They've made their money off of the format. Now that VMA is out of the store and they have a new set to sell, they don't give a rat's ass what becomes of Vintage. The sad part is I know individuals within the company care and want it to do well, Ethan in particular. He's gone above and beyond in becoming a sort of unofficial liaison between WotC and TMD. It just seems like these guys get stifled by bean counters, corporate inertia, or some other unseen force too often to really effect change.
What can we do to help them help us? At this point, I kind of feel like the ball is in their court. Several TMDers have the ears of various WotC employees in addition to Ethan's. The issues Enderfall outlined have been communicated multiple times prior to his open letter. The powers that be are aware of the situation; it's up to them to do something about it.
Wow I didn't really expect such a comprehensive answer. Somewhat depressing to have my fears confirmed though the leagues bit is a slight bright spot. The real question that remains then is: What else is WOTC going to do about it? And the corollary is What can we do to help them do the right thing?
Agreed about leagues. I think they could be exactly what Vintage needs and I was really encouraged to read Ethan's comment. The Vintage population is by and large adults with "9 to 5" jobs and can't set aside hours at a time to play events on a regular basis. I remember the old league structure accommodating this pretty well, especially for someone like me who works odd hours and cannot play in DEs. My only real wish is that they revamp the tiebreaker system into one that does not reward endless grinding.
Excellent link, thank you. I've considered trying more vintage myself, but the cost/benefit of vintage only cards compared to amount of play I'd get out of them is prohibitive for me, especially for cards I can't use in formats like Commander. Nonetheless, one day getting a set of Power is on my to do list.
Leagues could well be the game changer we need. I remember when we had them the first time around, and they were perfect for me, the flexibility of not having a time constraint harnessed to a casual yet competitive format, slowly evolving the deck over time and reshaping it at leisure. It is imperative that we know what we're getting in this regard, and we're running out of 2014.
As far as I can tell, the format is being abandoned. DE attendance is way down, and even pickup games in the TP room are getting harder and harder to come by. Enderfall wrote An Open Letter to Mike Turian (link: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-t... ) that identifies the issues facing Vintage on MODO and proposes a number of solutions. Many of the sentiments in his letter have been echoed by the TMD community as a whole. The whole thing is worth a read, but the Cliff's Notes pertaining to your question are as follows:
-V3 to V4 transition lost players.
-The prize structure of DEs is too low stakes and the timing is not friendly for any area of the world with a significant Vintage playerbase.
-Vintage suffered multiple format-breaking bugs in the M15 patch that took weeks to fix.
-The demographic that plays Vintage is less tolerant of bugs and crappy software.
-The "honeymoon" is over and people are returning to other formats, especially since Standard recently rotated into what looks to be a much more interesting format and KTK has shaken up Modern as well.
I don't want to sound like too much of a downer, so I'll leave you with the following comment made by Magic Designer Ethan Fleischer on a similar thread on TMD regarding the possibility of Vintage Leagues.
"I sit two desks away from the primary designer of the new leagues feature, and I've participated in a couple of playtests myself. I can't reveal any details, but they look to be very well designed for busy grownups like most of us, who want to compete on our own timetable. I'll double check and make sure the MTGO folks know that Vintage players want Vintage leagues!"
Great cast as always fellows. I expect Pauper will get fixed sooner than Tribal wars. As for the casual formats I don't think they will affect my play much as I don't play in FNMs and the last time I did regularly they were draft format. (Back when I wrote for neutralground.net.)
As for prices, you mentioned lotus dropped quite dramatically but what is really odd/worrisome is that all the vma set is lagging from what it was before VMA went offline. Does this mean now that it isn't easy access players are just selling out and leaving the format behind? I know there are die hards and people like me who will keep their cards anyway but it seems like a good many have abandoned the format.
The same arguments for "the deck loses to this" also works for 12-post (Blood Moon), Second Sunrise (Leyline of the Void), and Blazing Shoal (Path to Exile). In magic, something else will always beat the best strategy. But will forcing decks to have lots of answers to stuff make those decks unable to beat anything else, or will you get a format where blue is the most played color because you more or less have to play control to stand a chance?
I think Jeskai Ascendancy and Treasure Cruise are headed for the ban bin. They might do it to Monastery Swiftspear too, if they use the same logic they did when they banned Wild Nacatl.
Sarkhan is usually only a creature on it's controller's turn...
Morphed Exalted Angel on turn 3 only gives the opponent a narrow window to bolt her. Turn 4 is too late as she can flip faster than a bolt. (Gotta love the morph rules for that.)
I got to watch Elizabeth's fight with AJ and her deck was pretty cool. Spitemare, Reckoner and Wall of Hope all pulling in the same direction is way more than I'd come up with in my versions of the deck archetype. Oh look I wiped the board, got you down to 7 and gained 13 life all in one spell. :D
If the deck had a weakness it was the too few Acts redundancy. Blasphemous Act can end the game if you draw it. Not drawing it is bad. I probably would have forgone the spot removal in favor of Chain Reaction or Volcanic Fallout, or maybe even Starstorm. And I would have tried to squeeze in a few red draw cards. But regardless the deck was innovative and interesting and despite AJ being my bro, I was rooting for her to win.
Meh next time, It is awesome to have new blood bringing fresh perspectives to the tired old routine. Makes me wish I'd been up in time with a viable deck.
Pete is a guy that usually has a lot of patience with mtgo's problems and Wizards' mistakes. If he's angry at this I wouldn't doubt it's Wizards' fault.
He said everything else was working and it occured several times. It can't be on his end.
I dunno, Ascendancy seems pretty damn busted to me. The resilience on that thing is astounding.
I got them taken care of :D
I'm so sorry for the multiple posts! if the web editor could delete the extras I'll be eternally grateful.
Stupid mobile cache, didn't update the page to confirm the comment had submitted. Again really sorry...
Hi Pete,
as always thank you for the article. makes Friday's journey home on the train so much more bearable.
Regarding your connectivity issues and the lag, how sure are you that it's entirely wizard's fault? I played all weekend, entering multiple draft and sealed release queues. I didn't experience any of the issues you mention. the client was responsive and not laggy in the slightest. My 80 card submission was down only to my inability to choose between Abzan and Mardu!
I'll admit I play from the UK (which should be somewhat laggier, given the inherent latency) and my broadband connection is considerably bigger than yours. But still, I feel I should have experienced some of your lag if it was coming from wizard's side.
There are many reasons for connection issues and it could still be all wizard's fault. Still I guess I'd like to know what you did to confirm it was their side. At the very least then, should I suffer the same I too can confirm with wizard's support it's not my fault when I complain as well...
The chat is really annoying. As a person who plays mulitplayer Commander there is a certain social aspect to most games. However, when I have to spend time trying to get the chat docked, and then finagling with it because it takes up too much of the screen to be able to see the battlefield, it's just another reason to keep me from playing.
Good stuff Paul.
The reason why there wasn't an open was because of States. SCG has no problem scheduling opens during PTs, see JOU and M15.
I played against a nice Sultai/Temur Deck in a draft and got Villainous Wealth cast against my Mardu deck for 5 and lost my Act of Treason and Unyielding Krumar. Lucky for me he didn't cast it for 6 or I would have also been facing down my own Ponyback Brigade (and friends) instead of having it exiled. Needless to say it was soon gg.
Not if Sarkan is a creature.
You should be aware that this topic became a part of my next article here as I was writing it when your response came in. I used your response in particular as a launch point for the discussion. Should be out around Friday or so.
What is WotC going to do about it? The cynic in me says "nothing". They've made their money off of the format. Now that VMA is out of the store and they have a new set to sell, they don't give a rat's ass what becomes of Vintage. The sad part is I know individuals within the company care and want it to do well, Ethan in particular. He's gone above and beyond in becoming a sort of unofficial liaison between WotC and TMD. It just seems like these guys get stifled by bean counters, corporate inertia, or some other unseen force too often to really effect change.
What can we do to help them help us? At this point, I kind of feel like the ball is in their court. Several TMDers have the ears of various WotC employees in addition to Ethan's. The issues Enderfall outlined have been communicated multiple times prior to his open letter. The powers that be are aware of the situation; it's up to them to do something about it.
Cannot get Sarkan without a planeswalker of your own, as thief exchanges one permanent with target permanent that shares a card type with it.
Wow I didn't really expect such a comprehensive answer. Somewhat depressing to have my fears confirmed though the leagues bit is a slight bright spot. The real question that remains then is: What else is WOTC going to do about it? And the corollary is What can we do to help them do the right thing?
One of the few things we do know about them is the grindy aspect has been taken care of, although as yet we don't know how.
Agreed about leagues. I think they could be exactly what Vintage needs and I was really encouraged to read Ethan's comment. The Vintage population is by and large adults with "9 to 5" jobs and can't set aside hours at a time to play events on a regular basis. I remember the old league structure accommodating this pretty well, especially for someone like me who works odd hours and cannot play in DEs. My only real wish is that they revamp the tiebreaker system into one that does not reward endless grinding.
Excellent link, thank you. I've considered trying more vintage myself, but the cost/benefit of vintage only cards compared to amount of play I'd get out of them is prohibitive for me, especially for cards I can't use in formats like Commander. Nonetheless, one day getting a set of Power is on my to do list.
Leagues could well be the game changer we need. I remember when we had them the first time around, and they were perfect for me, the flexibility of not having a time constraint harnessed to a casual yet competitive format, slowly evolving the deck over time and reshaping it at leisure. It is imperative that we know what we're getting in this regard, and we're running out of 2014.
tx for the insight - especially the last para; one of the few lights in a nasty downward spirale
As far as I can tell, the format is being abandoned. DE attendance is way down, and even pickup games in the TP room are getting harder and harder to come by. Enderfall wrote An Open Letter to Mike Turian (link: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-t... ) that identifies the issues facing Vintage on MODO and proposes a number of solutions. Many of the sentiments in his letter have been echoed by the TMD community as a whole. The whole thing is worth a read, but the Cliff's Notes pertaining to your question are as follows:
-V3 to V4 transition lost players.
-The prize structure of DEs is too low stakes and the timing is not friendly for any area of the world with a significant Vintage playerbase.
-Vintage suffered multiple format-breaking bugs in the M15 patch that took weeks to fix.
-The demographic that plays Vintage is less tolerant of bugs and crappy software.
-The "honeymoon" is over and people are returning to other formats, especially since Standard recently rotated into what looks to be a much more interesting format and KTK has shaken up Modern as well.
I don't want to sound like too much of a downer, so I'll leave you with the following comment made by Magic Designer Ethan Fleischer on a similar thread on TMD regarding the possibility of Vintage Leagues.
"I sit two desks away from the primary designer of the new leagues feature, and I've participated in a couple of playtests myself. I can't reveal any details, but they look to be very well designed for busy grownups like most of us, who want to compete on our own timetable. I'll double check and make sure the MTGO folks know that Vintage players want Vintage leagues!"
The pauper fix is set up for the 22nd of this month, so only one more week of bleh.
I think the format is being abandoned.
Great cast as always fellows. I expect Pauper will get fixed sooner than Tribal wars. As for the casual formats I don't think they will affect my play much as I don't play in FNMs and the last time I did regularly they were draft format. (Back when I wrote for neutralground.net.)
As for prices, you mentioned lotus dropped quite dramatically but what is really odd/worrisome is that all the vma set is lagging from what it was before VMA went offline. Does this mean now that it isn't easy access players are just selling out and leaving the format behind? I know there are die hards and people like me who will keep their cards anyway but it seems like a good many have abandoned the format.
Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Devoted Druid because it combos with Quillspike and self sacrifices itself to Deathrender,
Do you think WotC will start Leagues on mtgo before 2015 Pete ?