I was only to Point 2 and I also thought this would have been a great article!
Regarding Monastery Mentor - you mention not needing another snowball card, but when discussing Ascendancy, you state that only having 4 copies hampers the deck. While Mentor is not providing the same effect as JA, isn't having multiple snowballing options still a good thing?
Some great discussion going on here; glad to see the Pure Community working on a deck together!
Ojutai Exemplars is one of my pet cards. It seems to have been incredibly overlooked (dissed) by the pros. Once resolved, it is incredibly difficult to deal with.
Also have you tried Nyx-Fleece Ram or Wall of Essence for your aggro match-ups?
Thanks Marcus for your comments. Please add me as a Buddy on Magic Online (my name is Michelle_Wong), and we can share ideas about Jeskai Tokens. I would really like to join a huge Standard premier tournament event with you (or even a Daily), and we can share feedback on what decks we faced, what tech was good etc.
I am happy that you do not believe that the Golden Age for us is over, and I wish I could agree but I still stick to my comments. I believe that in light of the current meta, we have moved from being a Tier 1 deck to a Tier 2 deck (or perhaps somewhere in between). We are not rogue. We are competitive, but perhaps it's more suited to Friday Night Magic rather than with the pros on Magic Online (many pros do a tonne of testing on Magic Online, and it is filled with an endless supply of sharks all desperate for their 4-0 and 3-1 results). I don't think it's fair to say that we are a Tier 1 deck on the same par as Atarka Aggro or Dragons Control. This is my opinion with respect to all.
It is a fascinating archetype - we are essentially a combo deck, with some aggro, midrange and control elements thrown in to the mix! In the current environment which is dominated by the ultra-aggro and the ultra-control decks, being a combo deck is not a good place to be. We are essentially between a rock and a hard place. If the Magic Online meta becomes dominated by midrange players, then I will agree that a bright new golden age will dawn for us. But I don't see that happening at all, let alone any time soon.
For this reason, I feel less enthusiastic about joining Standard tournament queues nowadays, because I think "Why should I bother fighting uphill battles when my opponents can just cruise along?" Yes I might win if things go well, but I feel that we must swim upstream in the present meta, and I don't like this feeling.
You may be right about 4 x Treasure Cruise instead of 3 x Treasure Cruise. I used to play 4 copies main deck, but then so many times I would have multiples sitting in my hand early (not being able to cast either one efficiently), and then being in the awkward position early game to have to pay 4 mana approximately so to cast them (which I of course would not do unless absolutely desperate). In short, I found that too many times drawing multiple Cruises early were CLUNKY, whereas a Lightning Strike may have been just what the doctor ordered to keep me alive. I am happy with my decision of 3 x Cruise main, and 1 in board, with all respect to everyone.
I also add 4 x Flooded Strands (not 3 as per the typical build) in order to help fuel Cruises a bit better. If you are running 4 Cruises main, and have Dig in the sideboard, then the 4th copy of Flooded Strand might also help you. I do not regret my decision in that regard.
Thanks for your in depth comment. Since putting up that article my list has already changed due to the massive testing I have been doing both in paper and on MTGO. I agree with most of your points but will disagree on the decks "Golden Age" being over. It is true that it will be tougher going forward but I think the players that really know and understand the deck will really thrive because of it. I am now on 4 Seekers main and in my board I have Ojutai's Exemplars and Dragonlord Ojutai to bring in when I bring in Sweepers or morph to a more controlling route with Planeswalkers etc. Of course there are really bad match-ups, one being anything with Dromoka's command but we can put up some very good games against Esper Dragons and Abzan decks. I would never go below 4 Treasure Cruise except when I take out a Cruise and board in a Dig Through Time. I suggest you shoot me a message on MTGO sometime and we can go over my new list which I will be talking about very soon. (hopefully with videos)
Once again thank you for you very well thought out comment.
This article got my attention because I am a Jeskai Tokens player. It is the only Standard deck I play.
I like your article and I agree with most of your comments. I am interested to see your feedback as you continue to test this deck and the archetype. I wish you success and fun with it.
My feedback on the archetype is the following:
1. The golden age for this deck has passed. It is sad but true. I am not saying the deck is not competitive, I am saying that we are now fighting "uphill battles" whereas before we were on even playing ground. Before Dragons of Tarkir, we were living in a golden age and life was a lot better for us Jeskai Tokens players. It is true that we received a few new great cards from Dragons (Dragon Fodder and Secure the Wastes and Anticipate) and we can now remove the clunky Hordeling Outburst as a result, but the reality is that our aggro opponents became a LOT better, and our control opponents also became a LOT better. And we, on the other hand, only moved only a little ahead (and of course Virulent Plague impacted us more than any other deck, and can single-handedly cost us matches if we don't stop it). It is only our midrange opponents (like Siege Rhino / Surrak / Raptor players) that we still have a decent matchup against because we are more explosive than they are as the game progresses (we can outpace even the hugely card advantage oriented versions of the midrange decks). Midrange players don't put enough early pressure on us, and we can chump block them until we have set ourselves up.
2. That being said, it is not all doom and gloom. We do have 3 key strengths. The first is that we are the biggest SNOWBALL deck in the format, which makes us the most explosive of all decks. The longer the game goes on, the more likely we will be exploding at an exponential rate, not at a linear rate! This is why I love this deck. The second strength is that it is easy for us to recover from mass removal, often recovering immediately at instant speed with Secure the Wastes! The third strength is that we are less vulnerable to spot removal due to all of our tokens. So we have the combined strength of being less vulnerable to spot removal AND mass removal AND we are the biggest snowballer, and no other deck can claim that.
3. Our biggest weakness is that the deck is VERY reliant on Jeskai Ascendancy. There is a massive difference between a game with Ascendancy appearing/resolving/staying, versus a game when this does not happen. Jeskai Ascendancy has the advantage in that it is the No.1 "snowball card" in the whole of standard. But it has the disadvantage that if the Ascendancy is countered, or removed, or simply never appears in time, the deck can flounder. And you can expect most opponents to sideboard in cards to handle your Ascendancy (for example, it is a correct decision for your opponent to board in cards like Erase and the like, because of how important the Ascendancy is for us).
4. When deciding whether to mulligan, bear in mind Point 3 above (ie. Do I have Ascendancy or not, or if not do I have Anticipate?). I am not saying that you should mulligan until you find Ascendancy, I am saying that a hand without Ascendancy (or a way to find it soon) is a lot worse than a hand with it.
5. The Treasure Cruises are awesome and I use 3 copies pre-board, but they frequently suffers from the problem that it takes time to fill our graveyard, and we often don't have the luxury to go on cruises when our faces are being beaten by Mono Red/Atarka Red at lightning fast speeds, without any mass removal of our own to buy time. Cruise is a great card for securing wins when we have stabilised, but I find that I may be dead before I find what I need via a Cruise. Our deck is cruel and unusual, in that our Jeskai Ascendancy has the power to draw and discard cards to find what we need and get great card quality, but often we are desperate to find a Jeskai Ascendancy, and so we can't even loot. And we have few cards in our graveyard, so we can't even Cruise!!
6. Seekers of the Way are very important. I respectfully disagree with your decision to play a Mantis Rider over a Seeker. I am passionately against your decision with every fibre of my being. Yes it's true that the Seekers die to removal frequently, but so do Mantis Riders. Against Aggro opponents, Seekers are so important to our goal to stay alive (unchecked and he will swing the game in favour of Jeskai), and against Control opponents the Seekers are important to place early pressure and to give us a threat which cannot be ignored. In addition, Mantis Riders compete with Jeskai Ascendancy as a 3-drop, and their casting cost of 3 colored mana means they are often not even 3 drops, but 4 drops in reality. We already have a decent matchup against green midrange, so why are you worried so much about improving that matchup even more?
7. I am a big fan of a lone BRIMAZ, which can be used in the main board and can be removed sometimes post-board. Why? Because he can surprise an opponent and turn the game around fast. If he doesn't appear in Game 1, then our opponents will think that they don't need to prepare for him and they might side-out spot-removal cards like Hero's Downfall. Then you slam Brimaz down on Turn 3 and cause havoc. He also is a token generator. And unlike the Mantis Rider, he is actually a 3 drop (not a 4 drop as explained above). Having one copy alone will mean that you never need to worry about the Legendary rule. I recommend you test him and see if you have the same feedback as me.
8. I also have good feedback with a lone Jeskai Charm. Why? Because all options on the card are decent, and against a red player, the third option (+1/+1 and lifelink) can suddenly steal the whole game because of the life gain which can place you out of reach of their burn. One is enough though - no need to go too wild with multiple copies. I recommend you test it and see if you have the same feedback as me.
9. I agree with your decision not to use Monastery Mentor. Many players use him in Jeskai Tokens, but he is slow against Aggro, and he is a SNOWBALL card. And why do we need another snowball card when we surely have enough snowballing going on already. We don't need to 'win more'!
10. I am really interested to hear your further experiences and feedback, which may differ from mine. Specifically, I would like to know what strategies you found to be successful against the Dragon Control matchups. For example, do you just run out Ascendancy as quickly as possible and hope and pray that they don't have a counter? Or play more reactively and hope and pray that they don't out-control/draw you?
I instinctively want to call you Frankie Four Fingers. You can thank Guy Ritchie for that (at least your real name isn't the same as the bassist from U2 {hint:me}). I'll try to chat with you via MTGO and divulge my secrets.
Thanks for the links and the feedback! I will definitely watch the video and see if I can pick up the book sometime in the future.
As far as why I play Magic goes, the quote you picked out of the article is 100% accurate. Sure, I think dragons and wizards and elves are cool--and I'm not ashamed of that fact--but I would be just as comfortable playing the My Little Pony card game if I felt it was better designed and also gave me the opportunity to do it as a career. When I'm in a match, the flavor of the cards is essentially irrelevant to me because their function is the only thing that influences patterns and lines of play.
I'm not saying everyone approaches it this way, but I certainly do. It has nothing to do with the fact that Magic is stigmatized. Your point as it possibly applies to other people is definitely an interesting one, but I can say that it isn't relevant to me.
Again, thanks for commenting and providing research material!
I played blessing a lot back in the day when the creature package consisted of Akroma/Razia/Spirit for the Night and you needed it because they got killed a lot, but with the better win conditions we have now I think the (very) marginal win % you gain by having them is far outweighed by how often you draw a dead card.
The view that competitive games would benefit from decreasing variance is one I'm sure many would agree with you on. Personally, this lecture by Richard Garfield- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av5Hf7uOu-o convinced me otherwise. I'd also highly advise the book he co-authored "Characteristics of Games" if you haven't had a chance to read it.
I question whether "I play games because they're puzzles, and because I want to compete at puzzle-solving with someone else. I want to pit my intellect against theirs in an evenly-staked battle of wits (and ideally, but not necessarily, win)". Magic is a broad game with many avenues of appeal and it can be hard to pinpoint what exactly is "fun" about it. When people say this, I often feel it's a kind of post rationalization to justify the playing a stigmatized game by making it seem more worthy. I know I have caught myself doing the same thing in past.
I didn't take it the wrong way, I did tell him during mocs season 4 that I was on 9 or 10 DEs in a row without a 3-1. And I understand why people would like to see games where things don't go well.
I was only to Point 2 and I also thought this would have been a great article!
Regarding Monastery Mentor - you mention not needing another snowball card, but when discussing Ascendancy, you state that only having 4 copies hampers the deck. While Mentor is not providing the same effect as JA, isn't having multiple snowballing options still a good thing?
Some great discussion going on here; glad to see the Pure Community working on a deck together!
Ojutai Exemplars is one of my pet cards. It seems to have been incredibly overlooked (dissed) by the pros. Once resolved, it is incredibly difficult to deal with.
Also have you tried Nyx-Fleece Ram or Wall of Essence for your aggro match-ups?
Thanks Marcus for your comments. Please add me as a Buddy on Magic Online (my name is Michelle_Wong), and we can share ideas about Jeskai Tokens. I would really like to join a huge Standard premier tournament event with you (or even a Daily), and we can share feedback on what decks we faced, what tech was good etc.
I am happy that you do not believe that the Golden Age for us is over, and I wish I could agree but I still stick to my comments. I believe that in light of the current meta, we have moved from being a Tier 1 deck to a Tier 2 deck (or perhaps somewhere in between). We are not rogue. We are competitive, but perhaps it's more suited to Friday Night Magic rather than with the pros on Magic Online (many pros do a tonne of testing on Magic Online, and it is filled with an endless supply of sharks all desperate for their 4-0 and 3-1 results). I don't think it's fair to say that we are a Tier 1 deck on the same par as Atarka Aggro or Dragons Control. This is my opinion with respect to all.
It is a fascinating archetype - we are essentially a combo deck, with some aggro, midrange and control elements thrown in to the mix! In the current environment which is dominated by the ultra-aggro and the ultra-control decks, being a combo deck is not a good place to be. We are essentially between a rock and a hard place. If the Magic Online meta becomes dominated by midrange players, then I will agree that a bright new golden age will dawn for us. But I don't see that happening at all, let alone any time soon.
For this reason, I feel less enthusiastic about joining Standard tournament queues nowadays, because I think "Why should I bother fighting uphill battles when my opponents can just cruise along?" Yes I might win if things go well, but I feel that we must swim upstream in the present meta, and I don't like this feeling.
You may be right about 4 x Treasure Cruise instead of 3 x Treasure Cruise. I used to play 4 copies main deck, but then so many times I would have multiples sitting in my hand early (not being able to cast either one efficiently), and then being in the awkward position early game to have to pay 4 mana approximately so to cast them (which I of course would not do unless absolutely desperate). In short, I found that too many times drawing multiple Cruises early were CLUNKY, whereas a Lightning Strike may have been just what the doctor ordered to keep me alive. I am happy with my decision of 3 x Cruise main, and 1 in board, with all respect to everyone.
I also add 4 x Flooded Strands (not 3 as per the typical build) in order to help fuel Cruises a bit better. If you are running 4 Cruises main, and have Dig in the sideboard, then the 4th copy of Flooded Strand might also help you. I do not regret my decision in that regard.
I concur.
Thanks man. Wish I could do more.
Thanks for your in depth comment. Since putting up that article my list has already changed due to the massive testing I have been doing both in paper and on MTGO. I agree with most of your points but will disagree on the decks "Golden Age" being over. It is true that it will be tougher going forward but I think the players that really know and understand the deck will really thrive because of it. I am now on 4 Seekers main and in my board I have Ojutai's Exemplars and Dragonlord Ojutai to bring in when I bring in Sweepers or morph to a more controlling route with Planeswalkers etc. Of course there are really bad match-ups, one being anything with Dromoka's command but we can put up some very good games against Esper Dragons and Abzan decks. I would never go below 4 Treasure Cruise except when I take out a Cruise and board in a Dig Through Time. I suggest you shoot me a message on MTGO sometime and we can go over my new list which I will be talking about very soon. (hopefully with videos)
Once again thank you for you very well thought out comment.
This was a really good comment, makes me wish you had wrote an article about the tokens deck and its challenges moving forward.
Hi Marcus,
This article got my attention because I am a Jeskai Tokens player. It is the only Standard deck I play.
I like your article and I agree with most of your comments. I am interested to see your feedback as you continue to test this deck and the archetype. I wish you success and fun with it.
My feedback on the archetype is the following:
1. The golden age for this deck has passed. It is sad but true. I am not saying the deck is not competitive, I am saying that we are now fighting "uphill battles" whereas before we were on even playing ground. Before Dragons of Tarkir, we were living in a golden age and life was a lot better for us Jeskai Tokens players. It is true that we received a few new great cards from Dragons (Dragon Fodder and Secure the Wastes and Anticipate) and we can now remove the clunky Hordeling Outburst as a result, but the reality is that our aggro opponents became a LOT better, and our control opponents also became a LOT better. And we, on the other hand, only moved only a little ahead (and of course Virulent Plague impacted us more than any other deck, and can single-handedly cost us matches if we don't stop it). It is only our midrange opponents (like Siege Rhino / Surrak / Raptor players) that we still have a decent matchup against because we are more explosive than they are as the game progresses (we can outpace even the hugely card advantage oriented versions of the midrange decks). Midrange players don't put enough early pressure on us, and we can chump block them until we have set ourselves up.
2. That being said, it is not all doom and gloom. We do have 3 key strengths. The first is that we are the biggest SNOWBALL deck in the format, which makes us the most explosive of all decks. The longer the game goes on, the more likely we will be exploding at an exponential rate, not at a linear rate! This is why I love this deck. The second strength is that it is easy for us to recover from mass removal, often recovering immediately at instant speed with Secure the Wastes! The third strength is that we are less vulnerable to spot removal due to all of our tokens. So we have the combined strength of being less vulnerable to spot removal AND mass removal AND we are the biggest snowballer, and no other deck can claim that.
3. Our biggest weakness is that the deck is VERY reliant on Jeskai Ascendancy. There is a massive difference between a game with Ascendancy appearing/resolving/staying, versus a game when this does not happen. Jeskai Ascendancy has the advantage in that it is the No.1 "snowball card" in the whole of standard. But it has the disadvantage that if the Ascendancy is countered, or removed, or simply never appears in time, the deck can flounder. And you can expect most opponents to sideboard in cards to handle your Ascendancy (for example, it is a correct decision for your opponent to board in cards like Erase and the like, because of how important the Ascendancy is for us).
4. When deciding whether to mulligan, bear in mind Point 3 above (ie. Do I have Ascendancy or not, or if not do I have Anticipate?). I am not saying that you should mulligan until you find Ascendancy, I am saying that a hand without Ascendancy (or a way to find it soon) is a lot worse than a hand with it.
5. The Treasure Cruises are awesome and I use 3 copies pre-board, but they frequently suffers from the problem that it takes time to fill our graveyard, and we often don't have the luxury to go on cruises when our faces are being beaten by Mono Red/Atarka Red at lightning fast speeds, without any mass removal of our own to buy time. Cruise is a great card for securing wins when we have stabilised, but I find that I may be dead before I find what I need via a Cruise. Our deck is cruel and unusual, in that our Jeskai Ascendancy has the power to draw and discard cards to find what we need and get great card quality, but often we are desperate to find a Jeskai Ascendancy, and so we can't even loot. And we have few cards in our graveyard, so we can't even Cruise!!
6. Seekers of the Way are very important. I respectfully disagree with your decision to play a Mantis Rider over a Seeker. I am passionately against your decision with every fibre of my being. Yes it's true that the Seekers die to removal frequently, but so do Mantis Riders. Against Aggro opponents, Seekers are so important to our goal to stay alive (unchecked and he will swing the game in favour of Jeskai), and against Control opponents the Seekers are important to place early pressure and to give us a threat which cannot be ignored. In addition, Mantis Riders compete with Jeskai Ascendancy as a 3-drop, and their casting cost of 3 colored mana means they are often not even 3 drops, but 4 drops in reality. We already have a decent matchup against green midrange, so why are you worried so much about improving that matchup even more?
7. I am a big fan of a lone BRIMAZ, which can be used in the main board and can be removed sometimes post-board. Why? Because he can surprise an opponent and turn the game around fast. If he doesn't appear in Game 1, then our opponents will think that they don't need to prepare for him and they might side-out spot-removal cards like Hero's Downfall. Then you slam Brimaz down on Turn 3 and cause havoc. He also is a token generator. And unlike the Mantis Rider, he is actually a 3 drop (not a 4 drop as explained above). Having one copy alone will mean that you never need to worry about the Legendary rule. I recommend you test him and see if you have the same feedback as me.
8. I also have good feedback with a lone Jeskai Charm. Why? Because all options on the card are decent, and against a red player, the third option (+1/+1 and lifelink) can suddenly steal the whole game because of the life gain which can place you out of reach of their burn. One is enough though - no need to go too wild with multiple copies. I recommend you test it and see if you have the same feedback as me.
9. I agree with your decision not to use Monastery Mentor. Many players use him in Jeskai Tokens, but he is slow against Aggro, and he is a SNOWBALL card. And why do we need another snowball card when we surely have enough snowballing going on already. We don't need to 'win more'!
10. I am really interested to hear your further experiences and feedback, which may differ from mine. Specifically, I would like to know what strategies you found to be successful against the Dragon Control matchups. For example, do you just run out Ascendancy as quickly as possible and hope and pray that they don't have a counter? Or play more reactively and hope and pray that they don't out-control/draw you?
I'm just super happy that Mike came back for an article. I had an empty spot in my heart waiting for him to come back! :D
Many thanks for this preview.
Do you know what is the artifact creature that is shown in the art? Thanks
Always the shrewd businessman!
I sold three of mine for $150 about 7 months ago
It was >$60 at one point
Always glad to see another Commander player embracing Argoth
I instinctively want to call you Frankie Four Fingers. You can thank Guy Ritchie for that (at least your real name isn't the same as the bassist from U2 {hint:me}). I'll try to chat with you via MTGO and divulge my secrets.
I only have one. It's all I really needed, although having more will allow me to play them over the rebuilds I've had to occasionally use.
I'm not a Commander player myself, but I appreciate a man who takes the time to makes bespoke memes for a deck guide!
How did you do the decklist backgrounds? They look sweet. I've been messing around with various templates to little success.
Frankie
This article looks amazing. I'm very impressed.
Also, I can't wait to see what you do with that Timetwister!
Thanks for the links and the feedback! I will definitely watch the video and see if I can pick up the book sometime in the future.
As far as why I play Magic goes, the quote you picked out of the article is 100% accurate. Sure, I think dragons and wizards and elves are cool--and I'm not ashamed of that fact--but I would be just as comfortable playing the My Little Pony card game if I felt it was better designed and also gave me the opportunity to do it as a career. When I'm in a match, the flavor of the cards is essentially irrelevant to me because their function is the only thing that influences patterns and lines of play.
I'm not saying everyone approaches it this way, but I certainly do. It has nothing to do with the fact that Magic is stigmatized. Your point as it possibly applies to other people is definitely an interesting one, but I can say that it isn't relevant to me.
Again, thanks for commenting and providing research material!
Casper
I played blessing a lot back in the day when the creature package consisted of Akroma/Razia/Spirit for the Night and you needed it because they got killed a lot, but with the better win conditions we have now I think the (very) marginal win % you gain by having them is far outweighed by how often you draw a dead card.
Very well written article Casper.
The view that competitive games would benefit from decreasing variance is one I'm sure many would agree with you on. Personally, this lecture by Richard Garfield- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av5Hf7uOu-o convinced me otherwise. I'd also highly advise the book he co-authored "Characteristics of Games" if you haven't had a chance to read it.
I question whether "I play games because they're puzzles, and because I want to compete at puzzle-solving with someone else. I want to pit my intellect against theirs in an evenly-staked battle of wits (and ideally, but not necessarily, win)". Magic is a broad game with many avenues of appeal and it can be hard to pinpoint what exactly is "fun" about it. When people say this, I often feel it's a kind of post rationalization to justify the playing a stigmatized game by making it seem more worthy. I know I have caught myself doing the same thing in past.
Keep up with the quality content.
Frankie
I didn't take it the wrong way, I did tell him during mocs season 4 that I was on 9 or 10 DEs in a row without a 3-1. And I understand why people would like to see games where things don't go well.
For reference - this was youhavenogame... no idea why he did this from our account...
Zach
Hmm Lich's Mirror comes to mind
I think the more experienced the player is with the deck, the less he needs something like Gaea's Blessing.