I took Gold Guys to FNM this week, and went 3-1, losing to Merfolk in the 3rd round. It was fun, and not overpowered. Aside from Cavern of Souls, the deck itself, even the other non-basics, is pretty inexpensive.
I do like all the suggestions, and think for the next Modern, I may very well either go with the above listed Shaman deck, or Warriors. I always forget about the (Obsidian Battle-Axe) and recall how much I just loved that card back in the day. It also works pretty well with (Cream of the Crop) in ensuring you get a steady stream of dudes to keep on playing.
The wife has a UW Tokens Polymorph deck together that she likes to play. It is also pretty fun, and if I recall correctly, I think she even broke it out on Friday to play a few rounds while she was running the event.
I like this card. Goes with In the Web of War for some creature upgrades (with haste for both). And a lot of equipment that self equips (Hero's Blade (Legendary), Cloak and Dagger (Rogue), Diviner's Wand (Wizard), Obsidian Battle-Axe (Warrior), Ronin Warclub (any), Sai of the Shinobi (any), Stormrider Rig (any), and/or Veteran's Armaments (Soldier).
Agreed that taking time to enjoy the fun of it all is an important thing to do. Building up a Magic community is one of the most rewarding experiences (when it works hehe).
I'd say to go with Shamans or the UW Spirits deck. They are very fair aggro decks with some bursts of explosiveness that demonstrate how quickly games can end in Modern without completely punching new folks in the face. While Golden Guys is pretty fair, a deck of 99% non-basics could lead to an exaggerated assumption that only expensive lands are good enough.
Other ideas for Introduction Decks that could be "leveled up" as the players get better:
B/G mini-dredge graveyard filler - with Nighthowler/Splinterfright/Whip of Erebos eventually turning to Dredgevine
U/W Polymorph Tokens combo - pick a fun old fatty, like Akroma or Darksteel Colossus; eventually crush souls with Emrakul
R/G Landfall Ramp - ramp to Rampaging Baloths and Avenger of Zendikar, evolve into Scapeshift
Wildpair - It's just a fun card. make a deck of tons of one-ofs and go crazy.
Other ideas:
"Floor Model" decks - If you have tons of commons & uncommons from over the years, make sample decks usually mono or dual colored - that are extremely efficient, if not optimal, for themes like aggro rush, tribal, mill, etc. If folks don't have decks, they could borrow them to try playing for the night, possibly with a reduced entry fee? Set up a plan where if somebody did really well with the deck they could buy it (or win it?) for cheap?
Bounties - if some players do start using Tier 1 & 2 decks, make a bounty that players beat that them with less powered, non-tier decks get a pack or some store credit? Encourages a challenge as opposed to the feeling of "getting beat by a wallet".
There are all sorts of fun things you can do to get people interested. Just like deck building, try different things and have fun with it!
"Conversation" inside a cheater or potential cheaters' mind;
- if I cheat I have to tell about it later and be DQed, therefore I do not cheat.
A Judges mind;
- I cant see everything players do, but if I ask around about cheats the cheaters that forgot they cheated 1-xx minutes ago will remember it and have to tell me. And those who have remembered it all the way will go all Pinocchio nose and tell me.
:How is it on the opponent to notice and decry the evil deed??
According to the rules, maintaining the game state is a shared responsibility of both players. This includes making sure that your opponent's plays are legal.
That said, I'm glad I only play MTGO and don't have to worry about it.
I get what you're saying, but I don't feel the same way. I would, if half of each Underdog event were made up of Soltari and Berserker decks. But it's not. It's pretty diverse, as I wrote in the article, both in terms of registered decks and winners. I don't feel like there's tribes that are pushed away by the presence of another tribe. If Worm isn't, then nobody is.
Besides, banning favorites is the path to alienate players, and Underdog is not in the condition to lose any player, because it's the less played of all our subformats.
This said, future will tell whether or not the mentioned tribes will graduate to Major League one day.
How is it on the opponent to notice and decry the evil deed?? I mean there were lots of people there watching the game and NO ONE said anything. Imho Brad's popularity made it "not cheating" more than any excuse you can come up with.
Also re: the reply link shows up in the same place UNLESS you can edit your post in which case the edit link shows up first.
I've sarcastically referred to chalice of the void as "fun" on numerous occasions, several of which occurred today :D
Chalice of the void is an abomination of a card, especially on the play!
In all honesty, I don't think that I will be playing the deck all that much. I enjoy aggro control and tempo decks much more.
The rest of the mtg game needs to follow the trigger way of doing things.
If you cast terror on a black creature f.ex. and the opponent catches the error within some time-frame, the Judge will give the opponent these options apart from restoring the terror'ed creature itself;
- terror goes to the graveyard.
- terror goes to exile.
- terror goes back to hand.
Yes, the opponent can decide that the wrongly cast terror goes to the graveyard without doing anything, thats the penalty for casting spells the wrong way.
If the error ISNT caught however, we should have none of these endless discussions on the internet about who did or didnt do what and with which intentions.
If neither the opponent nor the Judges at whatever event did NOT approach the player then people should NOT talk about cheating in aftermath - end of discussion.
Exceptions are drawing extra cards and shuffling techniques.
Brad covered the lands with his hand ?
Well, the opponent also did not ask Brad to remove his hands.
Discussion ends with that.
Edit; and in the Brad fetch thing: if the opp catches the error within some timeframe Brad looses the fetch in whole, he is down one land and one lifepoint from the crack, the GQ is shuffled back into library. Unless the opponent WANTS him to have his GQ on the table, the opponent decides.
(Edit: why is the reply function so bad/ppl confused ? replies appear randomly /under different/wrong posts.)
That was what I read and maybe that was his intention but he went to a slower than normal pace, I don't know. I also don't really know his history.
Yes, stalling is serious obviously but there are more serious offenses. It's not to take away importance from stalling, it is very serious and goes unpunished very often.
Not even Márcio denies he has cheated in the past. But right now that past is haunting him because his mistakes are being treated as cheating. And it isn't totally unfair but he has already been banned and paid for it.
Brad's action is very very suspicious, but I want to believe it isn't cheating. And that is because of his clean past but also because people like him already from his articles, tournament performances and videos. That should not give him a better protection when it comes to these things. You say that mistakes happen, why can't the mistakes Márcio made be just mistakes?
And I don't think the response of the pros is important in this case. They are better than most of us playing the game but they are not better judges of character. They are also biased, even if they don't think they are, it's very difficult not to be. And tweeting stuff that you don't know anything about is morally wrong.
According to the continuum galactic Googlepedia that event first occurs in the year 2142, after several Xionflytians take control of WOTC away from Hasbromechatroncorp in a proxy war that lasts 6.92 months. No actual lives are lost but the aliens make sure that very few Hasbromechatroncorp assets are left in any kind of condition to retake the subsidiary.
As a consequence, since Xionflytians are by their very nature casual niche gamers they adopt Unpowered Cube format as their new PT format and reduce others to GP or lower status.
Sadly I couldn't build "The Answer" if I wanted to as many of its components are pricy and not in my collection but what really irks me about it is the fact that it kills a lot of the fun in the format, imho. Chalice set to almost anything is an ugly, ugly card. Imho that card needs to go the way of Brainstorm and every other restricted card.
Bloodmoon effects are less certain though they certainly do wreck shops. I see a lot of basics in TP these days and many of them are merely two color decks so it isn't even a strain if their few nonbasics become mountains.
Sulfur Elemental is a funny sb against Mentor. A one card, "you can't win while this is in play" card that really hurts hatebears too in multiples of two or more...
Isn't helldozer a lot like a Demonic Horde? It is, indeed similar. I loved Demonic Horde as a kid. It seemed really good, but then we all thought Stone Rain was OP :).
1: I also have a story about Saito;
In some German GP 4-5 years ago he was DQed after a from-the-hip cowboy move 50 meters away by one of the 2nd in command judges at that GP. For stalling, grabbing and reading the opponents' Jace was one of the things the Judges said. No prior warning was issued to him in that GP, for anything.
I too can tell stories Mr Jahn.
2: "... Deliberately stalling means that the match ends with a result that it should not have had. That might be a draw that should have been a loss, or a win that should have been a loss. ... "
Players are responsible for keeping a reasonable pace of play, they are not responsible for finishing 3 games or more !
3: "...it also affects the tie-breakers of everyone that played either of the people involved in that match..."
So do concessions !
4: That last bit about Pros who know each other and stuff...
Yuck!
I just thought is was funny that he once proclaimed his love for drafting a Tinker / BSC package in Cube, (which is something you can do every day on Vintage), but since there is no Vintage PT then it's just meaningless.
Jeez between the folks telling you Vintage isn't a real format and people telling me that Standard isn't real Magic, I'm wondering what exactly it is that this snobby clique is playing with their super large Magic brains?
I'm always curious as to why certain folks have to knock formats they don't enjoy. I don't like EDH commander but I don't feel it is my obligation to convince the world it's not a good format.
We need healthy formats. Period. Otherwise the game as a whole suffers. The more healthy formats the better. And picking on vintage is even more asinine thank knocking Standard. Hello? VSL?one of the most popular
Streams in MtG! Dude was on crack....
Fetching a GQ instead of a basic while smelly could definitely be a mistake (though a rather peculiar one that I would not expect from a serious pro like Brad.) The hand action of covering it up, struck me purely from the video I saw as being deliberate.
Having clicked the origins spoiler link only to be taken to WOTCs Frankenstein site, I was given the opportunity by random survey to express my extreme dissatisfaction with their site's meta tag redirect bug which I did. But I did not get to view the complete spoiler list because I lost patience with having to back arrow again and again while the graphics of the spoiler SLOWLY downloaded. I'd prefer if you guys also linked to MTG Salvation's list next time. Thanks. I plan to listen later.
Listened, enjoyed, wished Id been on this one to discuss the hot button topics because I feel like I have good deal to say about them. But then again maybe not suitable for polite company. Anyway thanks for keeping the cast alive guys.
I really think Inimitable Adam should stick btw.
I should say friends of mine and I started a "guide" to mtg slang a while ago (more than 16 years ago) and while it was on my list of things todo I never got around to polishing it off. I am glad someone else decided to something similar. Having a lexicon of gamer terms is always useful and particularly with a game as evolving as this one.
I've never ever said "I battle my ...with your ..." but I expect some people do that regularly. Nice to learn something new.
Saito is very much a borderline case. He does a lot for the community, and is a great player, but he also has a history of cheats of opportunity. He has been DQed and suspended a couple times. In the latest DQ, he did NOT "go back to a normal pace." I wasn't there, but the highly experienced judge who call stalling initially, the highly experienced head judge who investigated and issued the DQ, and the WotC investigation group who reviewed the DQ and recommended a lengthy suspension all agreed that he was deliberately stalling. You can argue that this was a lapse of judgment under pressure, which it may well have been, but he has had a number of those over time.
I also disagree with your characterization of stalling as a less serious. Deliberately stalling means that the match ends with a result that it should not have had. That might be a draw that should have been a loss, or a win that should have been a loss. That incorrect result does not just affect the cheater and the opponent, it also affects the tie-breakers of everyone that played either of the people involved in that match. That is why stalling is a big issue, and penalized harshly.
I'm not going to talk about Marcio - there is plenty of info on his play and issues in the past. However, I do need to quash any discussion of Brad Nelson in this area. Brad made a mistake. The judges who investigated decided it was a mistake. Players make mistakes. A ton of them, especially in the later rounds. It is mentally very taxing to play high level Magic for many hours, and players are never at their best later in the event. As a judge at PTs, GPS and Worlds, plus a bazillion other events, I have seen a ton of mistakes being made. Some are just errors of judgment (should have blocked that wolf), some are rule violations (that creature should have been exiled, not buried.) The vast, vast majority of those mistakes are not deliberate or intentional - the players just made a mistake. Mistakes happen all the time.
The response of the pros is important, though. The pros tend to know each other. They have often played each other, and they talk about those games. Pros generally know which players are clean, and which ones you have to watch carefully. Having the pro community see nothing malicious in Brad's mistake is actually important. When the crooked players get caught, the pros are not silent about it.
What Brad did is suspicious but we can't be sure it is cheating.
I understand someone not wanting reformed cheaters in the HoF but there are a few of those there. In my opinion it shouldn't be impossible but it should require more from those players. Obviously everyone has different opinions and that is fine. What bothers me is when someone treats cases like these differently.
I don't agree about the redemption of these two and I think Brad cheated in the same egregious way. Did he get sanctioned for it? Apparently not but imho he should have.
I am not saying people can't be redeemed but if a title (with immense benefits) is bestowed on a known (if reformed cheater) perhaps it should be changed to Den of Notoriety. That way at least it implies that these folks aren't too pure.
I voted on Saito and Márcio among others. I'll talk about those two because they are the most controversial.
Let's start with Saito. I remember at the time reading something about his ban, which I can't find now. I'm not sure if it was himself, PV or both who wrote about it. What I do remember is that he was playing a game and there wasn't much time left. Saito started playing faster than his normal pace because he could still win, risking making some mistakes because of that faster pace. At a certain point, his opponent drew Pernicious Deed and Saito couldn't win that game anymore. He went back to playing at his normal pace because it would be stupid to risk making mistakes when you can't win the game anymore. For anyone watching, they see a change of pace, especially those who started watching after he was playing faster than normal.
Stalling is one of the most difficult things to deal with in real life magic, not only by judges but by players as well. It's hard to know if someone is stalling or if he just plays slower than most people. Most of the time judges can't/don't do anything relevant in these cases. Sometimes, players only realize the problem when it is too late. In this aspect, MTGO is so much better.
Stalling is cheating but I don't think it's as serious as premeditated cheating (like bringing marked sleeves on purpose or putting a certain card on top of your library as you shuffle the deck) and you can also accidently stall. Sometimes, you are so caught up in the game and it is so intense that without even thinking that it is against the rules, you start playing slower. Imagine a situation that you know you can't win the game, but you are still far away from losing. You are making plays that make the game last longer and without even thinking you start playing slower because you are in a "let's not lose mode".
From what I heard this is not the only reason he was banned, there were several small things that added up, but I think he has paid for what he did. At the time, he was about to join the HoF and he has been good for the community in the meantime. If he was good enough for the HoF at that time, he still is today, there is only the cheating part that hurts him but others with a past of cheating are in HoF so I think he deserves it.
Márcio is a different story. He was banned for allegedly looking at the side during the drafting portion. He always claimed to be innocent. This is also something difficult to deal with in real life magic because sometimes we do involuntary movements, especially under pressure and that could very well be the case. I don't think the advantage of seeing some cards someone is looking at (you'll probably not see all of them) is going to even be relevant most of the time so risking a DQ and maybe even a ban doing that doesn't make any sense.
After the ban he was playing less Magic, although he never stopped playing in big events. Eventually he started playing more again and in the WMC there was the Hornet Queen incident. Several pros started tweeting about this (some were there but didn't actually see the situation but most weren't even there) and everyone believes Márcio put the Hornet Queen under the lifepad on purpose so that he could get it from there, should the game be in a situation were it was good. One of the members of the Portuguese team is my friend and he is 100% it was not a cheating attempt. In fact, the Hornet Queen was in a position that it was hard to see from the Portuguese side of the table but easier to see from the other side. It was an honest mistake with a huge uproar because those pros acted out of despise for Márcio and because most people see easily influenced by what pros say.
Yes, Márcio has cheated in the past. He was not punished at the time but he is being punished now when he is playing legit. He was at the top of the game, he was banned and he was able to get to the top again. He is very good and he deserves more respect. I understand people don't have to forgive his cheating but what bothers me is that other cheaters have been forgiven or at least don't receive as much hate. This is in part because several pros like to voice their opinions on twitter when they don't even know half of the situation. However, if it's someone they know, they are very willing to ignore/forgive.
Brad Nelson fetched a Ghost Quarter with a fetchland. I didn't see a single pro saying anything on twitter. People didn't demand Brad's head. Obviously not having a past of cheating helps but if it was an unknown player and some pros called it out, we wouldn't have had such a positive reaction. Don't get me wrong, this wasn't the wrong reaction. It was the other times that were the wrong reaction.
I know Márcio doesn't stand a chance right now. In fact, I think he'd need to remain on platinum for a few years and get at least 3 more PT top8s with at least one win to actually have a shot. I don't expect people to vote for him, I just hope people give him a chance to prove he has changed.
I took Gold Guys to FNM this week, and went 3-1, losing to Merfolk in the 3rd round. It was fun, and not overpowered. Aside from Cavern of Souls, the deck itself, even the other non-basics, is pretty inexpensive.
I do like all the suggestions, and think for the next Modern, I may very well either go with the above listed Shaman deck, or Warriors. I always forget about the (Obsidian Battle-Axe) and recall how much I just loved that card back in the day. It also works pretty well with (Cream of the Crop) in ensuring you get a steady stream of dudes to keep on playing.
The wife has a UW Tokens Polymorph deck together that she likes to play. It is also pretty fun, and if I recall correctly, I think she even broke it out on Friday to play a few rounds while she was running the event.
I like this card. Goes with In the Web of War for some creature upgrades (with haste for both). And a lot of equipment that self equips (Hero's Blade (Legendary), Cloak and Dagger (Rogue), Diviner's Wand (Wizard), Obsidian Battle-Axe (Warrior), Ronin Warclub (any), Sai of the Shinobi (any), Stormrider Rig (any), and/or Veteran's Armaments (Soldier).
Throw in a few changelings and you're golden.
Agreed that taking time to enjoy the fun of it all is an important thing to do. Building up a Magic community is one of the most rewarding experiences (when it works hehe).
I'd say to go with Shamans or the UW Spirits deck. They are very fair aggro decks with some bursts of explosiveness that demonstrate how quickly games can end in Modern without completely punching new folks in the face. While Golden Guys is pretty fair, a deck of 99% non-basics could lead to an exaggerated assumption that only expensive lands are good enough.
Other ideas for Introduction Decks that could be "leveled up" as the players get better:
B/G mini-dredge graveyard filler - with Nighthowler/Splinterfright/Whip of Erebos eventually turning to Dredgevine
U/W Polymorph Tokens combo - pick a fun old fatty, like Akroma or Darksteel Colossus; eventually crush souls with Emrakul
R/G Landfall Ramp - ramp to Rampaging Baloths and Avenger of Zendikar, evolve into Scapeshift
Wildpair - It's just a fun card. make a deck of tons of one-ofs and go crazy.
Other ideas:
"Floor Model" decks - If you have tons of commons & uncommons from over the years, make sample decks usually mono or dual colored - that are extremely efficient, if not optimal, for themes like aggro rush, tribal, mill, etc. If folks don't have decks, they could borrow them to try playing for the night, possibly with a reduced entry fee? Set up a plan where if somebody did really well with the deck they could buy it (or win it?) for cheap?
Bounties - if some players do start using Tier 1 & 2 decks, make a bounty that players beat that them with less powered, non-tier decks get a pack or some store credit? Encourages a challenge as opposed to the feeling of "getting beat by a wallet".
There are all sorts of fun things you can do to get people interested. Just like deck building, try different things and have fun with it!
Good luck,
Gio
"Conversation" inside a cheater or potential cheaters' mind;
- if I cheat I have to tell about it later and be DQed, therefore I do not cheat.
A Judges mind;
- I cant see everything players do, but if I ask around about cheats the cheaters that forgot they cheated 1-xx minutes ago will remember it and have to tell me. And those who have remembered it all the way will go all Pinocchio nose and tell me.
Things...just...don't...work...this...way.
:How is it on the opponent to notice and decry the evil deed??
According to the rules, maintaining the game state is a shared responsibility of both players. This includes making sure that your opponent's plays are legal.
That said, I'm glad I only play MTGO and don't have to worry about it.
I get what you're saying, but I don't feel the same way. I would, if half of each Underdog event were made up of Soltari and Berserker decks. But it's not. It's pretty diverse, as I wrote in the article, both in terms of registered decks and winners. I don't feel like there's tribes that are pushed away by the presence of another tribe. If Worm isn't, then nobody is.
Besides, banning favorites is the path to alienate players, and Underdog is not in the condition to lose any player, because it's the less played of all our subformats.
This said, future will tell whether or not the mentioned tribes will graduate to Major League one day.
How is it on the opponent to notice and decry the evil deed?? I mean there were lots of people there watching the game and NO ONE said anything. Imho Brad's popularity made it "not cheating" more than any excuse you can come up with.
Also re: the reply link shows up in the same place UNLESS you can edit your post in which case the edit link shows up first.
I've sarcastically referred to chalice of the void as "fun" on numerous occasions, several of which occurred today :D
Chalice of the void is an abomination of a card, especially on the play!
In all honesty, I don't think that I will be playing the deck all that much. I enjoy aggro control and tempo decks much more.
Well written Tugachampion !
The rest of the mtg game needs to follow the trigger way of doing things.
If you cast terror on a black creature f.ex. and the opponent catches the error within some time-frame, the Judge will give the opponent these options apart from restoring the terror'ed creature itself;
- terror goes to the graveyard.
- terror goes to exile.
- terror goes back to hand.
Yes, the opponent can decide that the wrongly cast terror goes to the graveyard without doing anything, thats the penalty for casting spells the wrong way.
If the error ISNT caught however, we should have none of these endless discussions on the internet about who did or didnt do what and with which intentions.
If neither the opponent nor the Judges at whatever event did NOT approach the player then people should NOT talk about cheating in aftermath - end of discussion.
Exceptions are drawing extra cards and shuffling techniques.
Brad covered the lands with his hand ?
Well, the opponent also did not ask Brad to remove his hands.
Discussion ends with that.
Edit; and in the Brad fetch thing: if the opp catches the error within some timeframe Brad looses the fetch in whole, he is down one land and one lifepoint from the crack, the GQ is shuffled back into library. Unless the opponent WANTS him to have his GQ on the table, the opponent decides.
(Edit: why is the reply function so bad/ppl confused ? replies appear randomly /under different/wrong posts.)
That was what I read and maybe that was his intention but he went to a slower than normal pace, I don't know. I also don't really know his history.
Yes, stalling is serious obviously but there are more serious offenses. It's not to take away importance from stalling, it is very serious and goes unpunished very often.
Not even Márcio denies he has cheated in the past. But right now that past is haunting him because his mistakes are being treated as cheating. And it isn't totally unfair but he has already been banned and paid for it.
Brad's action is very very suspicious, but I want to believe it isn't cheating. And that is because of his clean past but also because people like him already from his articles, tournament performances and videos. That should not give him a better protection when it comes to these things. You say that mistakes happen, why can't the mistakes Márcio made be just mistakes?
And I don't think the response of the pros is important in this case. They are better than most of us playing the game but they are not better judges of character. They are also biased, even if they don't think they are, it's very difficult not to be. And tweeting stuff that you don't know anything about is morally wrong.
According to the continuum galactic Googlepedia that event first occurs in the year 2142, after several Xionflytians take control of WOTC away from Hasbromechatroncorp in a proxy war that lasts 6.92 months. No actual lives are lost but the aliens make sure that very few Hasbromechatroncorp assets are left in any kind of condition to retake the subsidiary.
As a consequence, since Xionflytians are by their very nature casual niche gamers they adopt Unpowered Cube format as their new PT format and reduce others to GP or lower status.
It is easy to understand how HoF invites DO take away other invites.
WotC could run X more regional PTQs with the HoFinvites erased.
Sadly I couldn't build "The Answer" if I wanted to as many of its components are pricy and not in my collection but what really irks me about it is the fact that it kills a lot of the fun in the format, imho. Chalice set to almost anything is an ugly, ugly card. Imho that card needs to go the way of Brainstorm and every other restricted card.
Bloodmoon effects are less certain though they certainly do wreck shops. I see a lot of basics in TP these days and many of them are merely two color decks so it isn't even a strain if their few nonbasics become mountains.
Sulfur Elemental is a funny sb against Mentor. A one card, "you can't win while this is in play" card that really hurts hatebears too in multiples of two or more...
Thanks for writing as per usual.
Isn't helldozer a lot like a Demonic Horde? It is, indeed similar. I loved Demonic Horde as a kid. It seemed really good, but then we all thought Stone Rain was OP :).
1: I also have a story about Saito;
In some German GP 4-5 years ago he was DQed after a from-the-hip cowboy move 50 meters away by one of the 2nd in command judges at that GP. For stalling, grabbing and reading the opponents' Jace was one of the things the Judges said. No prior warning was issued to him in that GP, for anything.
I too can tell stories Mr Jahn.
2: "... Deliberately stalling means that the match ends with a result that it should not have had. That might be a draw that should have been a loss, or a win that should have been a loss. ... "
Players are responsible for keeping a reasonable pace of play, they are not responsible for finishing 3 games or more !
3: "...it also affects the tie-breakers of everyone that played either of the people involved in that match..."
So do concessions !
4: That last bit about Pros who know each other and stuff...
Yuck!
I just thought is was funny that he once proclaimed his love for drafting a Tinker / BSC package in Cube, (which is something you can do every day on Vintage), but since there is no Vintage PT then it's just meaningless.
When was the last Cube Pro Tour?
Real Magic players play THE format. Obv.
Jeez between the folks telling you Vintage isn't a real format and people telling me that Standard isn't real Magic, I'm wondering what exactly it is that this snobby clique is playing with their super large Magic brains?
I'm always curious as to why certain folks have to knock formats they don't enjoy. I don't like EDH commander but I don't feel it is my obligation to convince the world it's not a good format.
We need healthy formats. Period. Otherwise the game as a whole suffers. The more healthy formats the better. And picking on vintage is even more asinine thank knocking Standard. Hello? VSL?one of the most popular
Streams in MtG! Dude was on crack....
Fetching a GQ instead of a basic while smelly could definitely be a mistake (though a rather peculiar one that I would not expect from a serious pro like Brad.) The hand action of covering it up, struck me purely from the video I saw as being deliberate.
Having clicked the origins spoiler link only to be taken to WOTCs Frankenstein site, I was given the opportunity by random survey to express my extreme dissatisfaction with their site's meta tag redirect bug which I did. But I did not get to view the complete spoiler list because I lost patience with having to back arrow again and again while the graphics of the spoiler SLOWLY downloaded. I'd prefer if you guys also linked to MTG Salvation's list next time. Thanks.
I plan to listen later.Listened, enjoyed, wished Id been on this one to discuss the hot button topics because I feel like I have good deal to say about them. But then again maybe not suitable for polite company. Anyway thanks for keeping the cast alive guys.
I really think Inimitable Adam should stick btw.
I should say friends of mine and I started a "guide" to mtg slang a while ago (more than 16 years ago) and while it was on my list of things todo I never got around to polishing it off. I am glad someone else decided to something similar. Having a lexicon of gamer terms is always useful and particularly with a game as evolving as this one.
I've never ever said "I battle my ...with your ..." but I expect some people do that regularly. Nice to learn something new.
First, Saito. I have a couple quibbles.
Saito is very much a borderline case. He does a lot for the community, and is a great player, but he also has a history of cheats of opportunity. He has been DQed and suspended a couple times. In the latest DQ, he did NOT "go back to a normal pace." I wasn't there, but the highly experienced judge who call stalling initially, the highly experienced head judge who investigated and issued the DQ, and the WotC investigation group who reviewed the DQ and recommended a lengthy suspension all agreed that he was deliberately stalling. You can argue that this was a lapse of judgment under pressure, which it may well have been, but he has had a number of those over time.
I also disagree with your characterization of stalling as a less serious. Deliberately stalling means that the match ends with a result that it should not have had. That might be a draw that should have been a loss, or a win that should have been a loss. That incorrect result does not just affect the cheater and the opponent, it also affects the tie-breakers of everyone that played either of the people involved in that match. That is why stalling is a big issue, and penalized harshly.
I'm not going to talk about Marcio - there is plenty of info on his play and issues in the past. However, I do need to quash any discussion of Brad Nelson in this area. Brad made a mistake. The judges who investigated decided it was a mistake. Players make mistakes. A ton of them, especially in the later rounds. It is mentally very taxing to play high level Magic for many hours, and players are never at their best later in the event. As a judge at PTs, GPS and Worlds, plus a bazillion other events, I have seen a ton of mistakes being made. Some are just errors of judgment (should have blocked that wolf), some are rule violations (that creature should have been exiled, not buried.) The vast, vast majority of those mistakes are not deliberate or intentional - the players just made a mistake. Mistakes happen all the time.
The response of the pros is important, though. The pros tend to know each other. They have often played each other, and they talk about those games. Pros generally know which players are clean, and which ones you have to watch carefully. Having the pro community see nothing malicious in Brad's mistake is actually important. When the crooked players get caught, the pros are not silent about it.
What Brad did is suspicious but we can't be sure it is cheating.
I understand someone not wanting reformed cheaters in the HoF but there are a few of those there. In my opinion it shouldn't be impossible but it should require more from those players. Obviously everyone has different opinions and that is fine. What bothers me is when someone treats cases like these differently.
I don't agree about the redemption of these two and I think Brad cheated in the same egregious way. Did he get sanctioned for it? Apparently not but imho he should have.
I am not saying people can't be redeemed but if a title (with immense benefits) is bestowed on a known (if reformed cheater) perhaps it should be changed to Den of Notoriety. That way at least it implies that these folks aren't too pure.
I voted on Saito and Márcio among others. I'll talk about those two because they are the most controversial.
Let's start with Saito. I remember at the time reading something about his ban, which I can't find now. I'm not sure if it was himself, PV or both who wrote about it. What I do remember is that he was playing a game and there wasn't much time left. Saito started playing faster than his normal pace because he could still win, risking making some mistakes because of that faster pace. At a certain point, his opponent drew Pernicious Deed and Saito couldn't win that game anymore. He went back to playing at his normal pace because it would be stupid to risk making mistakes when you can't win the game anymore. For anyone watching, they see a change of pace, especially those who started watching after he was playing faster than normal.
Stalling is one of the most difficult things to deal with in real life magic, not only by judges but by players as well. It's hard to know if someone is stalling or if he just plays slower than most people. Most of the time judges can't/don't do anything relevant in these cases. Sometimes, players only realize the problem when it is too late. In this aspect, MTGO is so much better.
Stalling is cheating but I don't think it's as serious as premeditated cheating (like bringing marked sleeves on purpose or putting a certain card on top of your library as you shuffle the deck) and you can also accidently stall. Sometimes, you are so caught up in the game and it is so intense that without even thinking that it is against the rules, you start playing slower. Imagine a situation that you know you can't win the game, but you are still far away from losing. You are making plays that make the game last longer and without even thinking you start playing slower because you are in a "let's not lose mode".
From what I heard this is not the only reason he was banned, there were several small things that added up, but I think he has paid for what he did. At the time, he was about to join the HoF and he has been good for the community in the meantime. If he was good enough for the HoF at that time, he still is today, there is only the cheating part that hurts him but others with a past of cheating are in HoF so I think he deserves it.
Márcio is a different story. He was banned for allegedly looking at the side during the drafting portion. He always claimed to be innocent. This is also something difficult to deal with in real life magic because sometimes we do involuntary movements, especially under pressure and that could very well be the case. I don't think the advantage of seeing some cards someone is looking at (you'll probably not see all of them) is going to even be relevant most of the time so risking a DQ and maybe even a ban doing that doesn't make any sense.
After the ban he was playing less Magic, although he never stopped playing in big events. Eventually he started playing more again and in the WMC there was the Hornet Queen incident. Several pros started tweeting about this (some were there but didn't actually see the situation but most weren't even there) and everyone believes Márcio put the Hornet Queen under the lifepad on purpose so that he could get it from there, should the game be in a situation were it was good. One of the members of the Portuguese team is my friend and he is 100% it was not a cheating attempt. In fact, the Hornet Queen was in a position that it was hard to see from the Portuguese side of the table but easier to see from the other side. It was an honest mistake with a huge uproar because those pros acted out of despise for Márcio and because most people see easily influenced by what pros say.
Yes, Márcio has cheated in the past. He was not punished at the time but he is being punished now when he is playing legit. He was at the top of the game, he was banned and he was able to get to the top again. He is very good and he deserves more respect. I understand people don't have to forgive his cheating but what bothers me is that other cheaters have been forgiven or at least don't receive as much hate. This is in part because several pros like to voice their opinions on twitter when they don't even know half of the situation. However, if it's someone they know, they are very willing to ignore/forgive.
Brad Nelson fetched a Ghost Quarter with a fetchland. I didn't see a single pro saying anything on twitter. People didn't demand Brad's head. Obviously not having a past of cheating helps but if it was an unknown player and some pros called it out, we wouldn't have had such a positive reaction. Don't get me wrong, this wasn't the wrong reaction. It was the other times that were the wrong reaction.
I know Márcio doesn't stand a chance right now. In fact, I think he'd need to remain on platinum for a few years and get at least 3 more PT top8s with at least one win to actually have a shot. I don't expect people to vote for him, I just hope people give him a chance to prove he has changed.
:"...just as many players q for the PT" ???
Hall of fame slots are extra slots, they do not take away other invites.
: "...BETTER opportunities" ???
If the hall of fame level players don't have to play in PTQs to get in, the invites they would have won now go to other players.
:"...dillutes" ?
It makes the pool of invites bigger, it does not take existing invites from that pool.