Where is draw go, and some one else developed counter-phoenix before Bueler. Who ever credits Randy having that deck is sadly mistaken, granted I think it was 98 he did well with it maybe i'm wrong but meh. Draw-Go was the evil decks to play against, and sligh was huge during this time >.< If anyone is in need of decklist, feel free to PM me.
I think there are more pro's to saccing right away.
Time: You can F6 your opponents first turn.
Forget: Even good players sometimes forget stuff, so doing it right away prevents you from making a mistake ( a mistake which is often way worse than showing some info)
Info who?: How often can your opponent actually make a different turn 1 or 2 play based on the land you played? You fetch and island and he plays mold adder instead of llanawar elves? And maybe that isnt even a better play, since the island might as well be a splash you want to search for.
I like the idea of playing "sloppy" when it doesnt really matter to put your opponent of guard.
You just have to watch out you dont go from sloppy to bad plays.
Small things only matter when you do everything else right, and the truth is most players aren't at that level. Missing a good attack turn 5 is always more important then when to crack a fetch.
Would be to look at the price of the Decks to purchase in Legacy, and the price online.
You can talk about how expensive Dual Lands are and Lion's Eye Diamond are online, but a) the duals themselves are around half the price online than even the revised versions are in paper, and b) for every card that's a little more expensive online (Diamond) there's a card like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or Moat that are like 40x - 150x more expensive in paper.
Legacy online will be cheaper then Legacy in paper, with the caveat that if there is a mad rush for paper players, that could adversely affect the price of digital cards in an upward trend.
However, I don't think that mad rush is coming. You know, that guy looking hard at buying a playset of LED for over $100? He'll probably just up and forget about joining online until Land Grant is available so he can play Belcher. And The winning decklist from SCG's last Legacy open? Whoops! Sorry Replenish - the key card in your deck is sadly missing.
In fact, despite the fact we have so much, many key Legacy cards are missing from MTGO right now, and will still be at least up until MED4 and past that with Urza's Destiny and then Masques.
It might be more of a slow trickle. Faux-Legacy isn't going to appeal to a lot of Legacy paper players for a little while.
Lastly, there are several cards that are currently (IMHO) underpriced for both their power and their usage in Legacy... time to buy them soon.
The only thing I'm not bowled over by, is the fact that it's single elimination. Why no swiss? (i can understand if numbers are small, single elim is prob better, but still, most people play PRE's to play!)
those fourth edition starter decks were awful. It was just a tournament pack...couldnt build a deck our of it. My mom had bought it for me since she knew my friend was trying to teach me the game. I was like 8 so she sat and listened as i forved her to learn then asked how i made decks. I said i don't know there arent enough cards...lol, i was serious but next day i got 2 more startes and about 10 boosters. this addiction now is all my moms fault.
So you're expecting it happen in the late fall? Makes sense. You said that you're considering selling off Classic cards to play Legacy. But Legacy = dual lands + Force of Will. (Similar to how the symbol of Vintage is the P9.) And if you think about it, what Vintage cards do we have that won't work in Legacy?
Everything expensive on MTGO is good for Legacy: duals, FoW, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Null Rod, Daze, Wasteland, and Leyline are all Legacy legal! There are only four cards worth selling: Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Strip Mine, and Oath. Outside of that though, Channel is nothing, Black Vise is nothing, Skullclamp is nothing, even Illusionary Mask is nothing. And of course, Imperial Recuiter and Ravages of War are also nothing, if you want to play those Legacy decks that you couldn't play in paper.
I'm looking at the Legacy list now. Here's what "Classic would lose" today, and what those same cards are worth today. The complete Legacy banned list is much longer and contains cards we don't even have yet.
* Balance - 4
* Bazaar of Baghdad - 6
* Black Vise
* Channel
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor - 12
* Earthcraft - 7
* Flash - 3.75
* Goblin Recruiter
* Gush - 3
* Hermit Druid - 3.5
* Illusionary Mask
* Imperial Seal
* Land Tax
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Drain - 10
* Mind Twist
* Mind's Desire
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids - 47 (the price of *right now*, this one moves 10 times a week)
* Skullclamp
* Strip Mine - 10
* Tinker - 5
* Vampiric Tutor - 37
* Worldgorger Dragon
No price means that it is two tickets or less. Cards that are restricted in Classic are usually undervalued because everyone only needs one. And historically, "type 1 restricted = type 1.5 banned", which describes many of the cards listed above. (Exiled, lol.) So that explains it.
Classic duals are definitely going up. I can't think of anything right now that is under-valued which will be worth more when Legacy officially appears. Maybe Aether Vial?
tl;dr - if you missed the Classic boat, I think you already missed the Legacy boat too. The least you can do is buy enemy duals and enemy fetches today while both are still in print.
for a newcomer who dosent know about the game, 1300 bucks seems like a good deal for a deck to play with out of the box and a bonus booster. I would have rather paid 1300 for this intro pack then 1250 for a starter deck of ice age and 4th edetion which is what i started the game with.
So, I made a deck for this. Sideboard is pretty random as of yet. Anyone interested, feel free to message me when I'm online. I'm eager to play a few games in this format.
Good point. I don't play paper any more so I don't run into new paper players. I used to give away 100s of commons to new players (not thousands as I rarely had THAT many extras). That I think is how many people get started. Someone gives them some cards to supplement what they have bought. As long as that worked to grow the player base WotC didn't worry about what their decks looked like. Now that is probably hard to do, since many of the major clubs like Neutral Ground (in nyc) closed their doors. Without as many gathering places players may have a harder time getting started competitively (note I don't mean in ptqs or anything of that nature just winning games vs other players) without buying singles or at least buying the intro packs. The upside side (if it can be called that) is there is a lot more info online than when the game was starting out. (The internet was barely a thing in the public consciousness at the time.)
Funny that. I predicted that blue would be awesome in this format, so the first deck I built was a burn deck. It also has a light black splash for cards like Duress, Blightning, and Imperial Seal. (In this format there's no reason not to have a few silver bullets.)
If we ever get up to "60 bolts", mono red is going to be annoying. The thing that kills "20 mountains, 40 bolts", besides hate, is drawing the wrong amount of land. Or not having the correct Mountains to cast Fireblast or whatever. But in this format my opening hand is always the ideal 5 spells and 2 land. Good luck racing me with creatures.
Until you get to the point where you're building tuned casual decks, this is the way to go. Like, when your collection isn't enough to win with Battle of Wits.
I think the change was best for the paper people. Before they weren't even getting a legal deck. Online though you can't even log in without buying that $10 intro pack, and that comes with a pile of commons and an additional booster. So online it was never an issue. But the paper players hated the 2009 intro packs.
Ive been playing block a lot, mostly with uw controll, but also some homebrews and i gotta say that i dont see valakut as a favourable matchup. You cant really counter their combo and generaly dont have enough threats to pressure them. Of course its not unwinable, but i would say its more a 50/50% and preboard they can really screw your manabase.
Yeah, I dont know if you will have the manabase to make counterslivers work in block. They worked in ext when ext had real duals.
Where is draw go, and some one else developed counter-phoenix before Bueler. Who ever credits Randy having that deck is sadly mistaken, granted I think it was 98 he did well with it maybe i'm wrong but meh. Draw-Go was the evil decks to play against, and sligh was huge during this time >.< If anyone is in need of decklist, feel free to PM me.
Great article.
I think there are more pro's to saccing right away.
Time: You can F6 your opponents first turn.
Forget: Even good players sometimes forget stuff, so doing it right away prevents you from making a mistake ( a mistake which is often way worse than showing some info)
Info who?: How often can your opponent actually make a different turn 1 or 2 play based on the land you played? You fetch and island and he plays mold adder instead of llanawar elves? And maybe that isnt even a better play, since the island might as well be a splash you want to search for.
I like the idea of playing "sloppy" when it doesnt really matter to put your opponent of guard.
You just have to watch out you dont go from sloppy to bad plays.
Small things only matter when you do everything else right, and the truth is most players aren't at that level. Missing a good attack turn 5 is always more important then when to crack a fetch.
ahh yes as a young boy in middle school, archetypes were only whispers i heard about...lol
Would be to look at the price of the Decks to purchase in Legacy, and the price online.
You can talk about how expensive Dual Lands are and Lion's Eye Diamond are online, but a) the duals themselves are around half the price online than even the revised versions are in paper, and b) for every card that's a little more expensive online (Diamond) there's a card like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or Moat that are like 40x - 150x more expensive in paper.
Legacy online will be cheaper then Legacy in paper, with the caveat that if there is a mad rush for paper players, that could adversely affect the price of digital cards in an upward trend.
However, I don't think that mad rush is coming. You know, that guy looking hard at buying a playset of LED for over $100? He'll probably just up and forget about joining online until Land Grant is available so he can play Belcher. And The winning decklist from SCG's last Legacy open? Whoops! Sorry Replenish - the key card in your deck is sadly missing.
In fact, despite the fact we have so much, many key Legacy cards are missing from MTGO right now, and will still be at least up until MED4 and past that with Urza's Destiny and then Masques.
It might be more of a slow trickle. Faux-Legacy isn't going to appeal to a lot of Legacy paper players for a little while.
Lastly, there are several cards that are currently (IMHO) underpriced for both their power and their usage in Legacy... time to buy them soon.
The only thing I'm not bowled over by, is the fact that it's single elimination. Why no swiss? (i can understand if numbers are small, single elim is prob better, but still, most people play PRE's to play!)
Sounds very cool.
Counterslivers was indeed huge back in 1998 but in Extended not in Type II. Here's a very good article about Counterslivers written by Pete Jahn.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/counterslivers-classic
LE
Dont play extended but was awesome. Thx
ya bad connection+restart of my computer=bad times
Rd 4 you vs me, mirror match - let's go! where are you :( bad connection? ... timed out victory. i'll take it but i need practice in the mirror!
I can't do weekends, maybe we could alternate between Sat. and Monday each week? The format sounds awesome.
RoryTheGreat on Magic Online
No need to apologise: The harshness of the Minnesota winter certainly trumps anything here in Blighty.
those fourth edition starter decks were awful. It was just a tournament pack...couldnt build a deck our of it. My mom had bought it for me since she knew my friend was trying to teach me the game. I was like 8 so she sat and listened as i forved her to learn then asked how i made decks. I said i don't know there arent enough cards...lol, i was serious but next day i got 2 more startes and about 10 boosters. this addiction now is all my moms fault.
Thats a heck of a lot of information for one post... You should think about doing a full blow article on the subject + add deck lists etc.
Nothing else besides LEGACY really matters. :P
So you're expecting it happen in the late fall? Makes sense. You said that you're considering selling off Classic cards to play Legacy. But Legacy = dual lands + Force of Will. (Similar to how the symbol of Vintage is the P9.) And if you think about it, what Vintage cards do we have that won't work in Legacy?
Everything expensive on MTGO is good for Legacy: duals, FoW, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Null Rod, Daze, Wasteland, and Leyline are all Legacy legal! There are only four cards worth selling: Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Strip Mine, and Oath. Outside of that though, Channel is nothing, Black Vise is nothing, Skullclamp is nothing, even Illusionary Mask is nothing. And of course, Imperial Recuiter and Ravages of War are also nothing, if you want to play those Legacy decks that you couldn't play in paper.
I'm looking at the Legacy list now. Here's what "Classic would lose" today, and what those same cards are worth today. The complete Legacy banned list is much longer and contains cards we don't even have yet.
* Balance - 4
* Bazaar of Baghdad - 6
* Black Vise
* Channel
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor - 12
* Earthcraft - 7
* Flash - 3.75
* Goblin Recruiter
* Gush - 3
* Hermit Druid - 3.5
* Illusionary Mask
* Imperial Seal
* Land Tax
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Drain - 10
* Mind Twist
* Mind's Desire
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids - 47 (the price of *right now*, this one moves 10 times a week)
* Skullclamp
* Strip Mine - 10
* Tinker - 5
* Vampiric Tutor - 37
* Worldgorger Dragon
No price means that it is two tickets or less. Cards that are restricted in Classic are usually undervalued because everyone only needs one. And historically, "type 1 restricted = type 1.5 banned", which describes many of the cards listed above. (Exiled, lol.) So that explains it.
Classic duals are definitely going up. I can't think of anything right now that is under-valued which will be worth more when Legacy officially appears. Maybe Aether Vial?
tl;dr - if you missed the Classic boat, I think you already missed the Legacy boat too. The least you can do is buy enemy duals and enemy fetches today while both are still in print.
for a newcomer who dosent know about the game, 1300 bucks seems like a good deal for a deck to play with out of the box and a bonus booster. I would have rather paid 1300 for this intro pack then 1250 for a starter deck of ice age and 4th edetion which is what i started the game with.
So, I made a deck for this. Sideboard is pretty random as of yet. Anyone interested, feel free to message me when I'm online. I'm eager to play a few games in this format.
MTGO Name: Norden
Good point. I don't play paper any more so I don't run into new paper players. I used to give away 100s of commons to new players (not thousands as I rarely had THAT many extras). That I think is how many people get started. Someone gives them some cards to supplement what they have bought. As long as that worked to grow the player base WotC didn't worry about what their decks looked like. Now that is probably hard to do, since many of the major clubs like Neutral Ground (in nyc) closed their doors. Without as many gathering places players may have a harder time getting started competitively (note I don't mean in ptqs or anything of that nature just winning games vs other players) without buying singles or at least buying the intro packs. The upside side (if it can be called that) is there is a lot more info online than when the game was starting out. (The internet was barely a thing in the public consciousness at the time.)
Funny that. I predicted that blue would be awesome in this format, so the first deck I built was a burn deck. It also has a light black splash for cards like Duress, Blightning, and Imperial Seal. (In this format there's no reason not to have a few silver bullets.)
If we ever get up to "60 bolts", mono red is going to be annoying. The thing that kills "20 mountains, 40 bolts", besides hate, is drawing the wrong amount of land. Or not having the correct Mountains to cast Fireblast or whatever. But in this format my opening hand is always the ideal 5 spells and 2 land. Good luck racing me with creatures.
(I'm still listening to the podcast.)
Until you get to the point where you're building tuned casual decks, this is the way to go. Like, when your collection isn't enough to win with Battle of Wits.
I think the change was best for the paper people. Before they weren't even getting a legal deck. Online though you can't even log in without buying that $10 intro pack, and that comes with a pile of commons and an additional booster. So online it was never an issue. But the paper players hated the 2009 intro packs.
hmm, was counterslivers not a big deck at this time, or am i thinking something else...
Yeah My vampire deck can't do anything against a UW control...
Interesting read, I enjoyed the article
Might be a challenge for some but Id find that utterly boring and depressing when I faced a well tuned "casual" deck.
Ive been playing block a lot, mostly with uw controll, but also some homebrews and i gotta say that i dont see valakut as a favourable matchup. You cant really counter their combo and generaly dont have enough threats to pressure them. Of course its not unwinable, but i would say its more a 50/50% and preboard they can really screw your manabase.