I've now done three 4BS events and done quite well in them (8-1 so far so my opinion is probably biased). I found them very interesting. My first two decks were both what felt like underpowered and removal light WB decks. One had a Serra Angel, neither had playable rares or Mythics, but I went 5-1 with them. Their only real strength was evasion and low curves but this proved to be good enough. My third deck was just busted with Frost Titan and Platinum angel to go with a solid array of green and blue cards.
From this limited experience I draw a few conclusions:
The sideboard is very powerful in these events because you have a pretty good chance to find whatever you board in. This means that you need to be aware of all your niche cards and leverage them to the best of your ability. With one of the WB decks I had to use a boarded in Temple Bell and Elixir of Immortality to deck a player who had two royal assassins that I could not remove.
2-1 and the the 3 packs is always an achievable goal, no matter what your pool (at least right now). Many people compromise and opt for 3 colors or assume that the format is slow (which it can be) and don't pay much attention to constructing a curve. The resulting mire of largely mopey midrange decks with motley assortments of removal create an environment that hyper aggressive *and* super defensive game plans both seem to be very effective.
Maybe this will change, but for the moment it seems to be an interesting wrinkle on sealed.
Interesting, considering the idea is the solution most highly recommended by wotc employees (ORCS) for dealing with people bringing decks you can't or don't want to handle.
I tend to not limit my games but I have occasionally put something like "no more elves please" in my tribal wars classic games after seeing 30 in a row. (Only happened twice but it was enough to warrant a message.) However, labeling people who do that as being contentious is a mistake I think. Just like generalizing about people doing anything is usually bad form. Simple yeah but bad form no doubt.
The "fast players" posters are the exception to that rule as the very concept is rather rude and inconsiderate.
I am a little surprised at you Linton, being "Mr. Danger" and all Id think you'd be happy to risk a few occasions of having to block someone to potentially have a good time.
==edit== though I imagine your experience in your format has more to do with it than anything else. Classic being a huge minefield of all kinds of players.
I've always loved extreme focus in deck construction, well done. - I know Stompy (In pauper anyways) does it via evasion and Shinen of Life's Roar acting as a lure. If a deck can manage it, it sure does 'pump it up' in a testosterone sort of way...
Great article, and congratulations on the soon-to-be baby! Having a month old baby, I warn you: don't start any drafts if you are the only one watching the kid. I'm out two draft sets to daddy duties.
The international team is terrible. They are not subjective at all, and always include people who think they are psychics. Take this scenario:
TAPS: Think I heard a voice. I'm going to see if I can recreate the sound by moving some furniture around.
International TAPS: OH MY GOD I HEAR YOU SPIRITS! SPEAK AGAIN, PLEASE!
If you can afford it, I recommend Linvala somewhere in your 75 (probably over the Ranger main). I recently started playing 3 main in Mythic and 1 in the side, and they are fantastic. Plus, it's a card that shuts you down pretty bad, so you could take advantage of the legend rule and play your own.
The above poster is right about the Ziggurat; typically the reasons not to run it are manlands and planeswalkers, which you have left out (which I like, by the way).
More often than not, the people who put something in there have a bone to pick with everything, and are much more likely to start verbally blasting you. My favourite are the ones who put "fast players please" then concede when you take more than 2 seconds to figure out which 2 cards to put back from brainstorm.
I generally don't talk very much during the game because I like to focus on the game. I like chatting after a match or between rounds, I just don't really like chatting in game. I realize that there are people who don't share this view and I like hearing from them.
I agree that Magic Online is a pretty cold place, and it's difficult to make friends here. A lot of that is because of the chat interface which WotC is going to improve. In my opinion it's difficult if not impossible to try to improve the community through chat during matches. During a match, tensions are running high, as well as frustration and anger. So it's very easy to hear your opponent's friendly consilatory words as condescending banter. I don't mind small chat during a match, but for the most part I don't consider it very meaningful.
Community on Magic online needs to be formed outside of matches. It's much easier to form a community on Magic Online websites, message boards, chat rooms, and clans than it is during matches. This, however, is just my opinion and I accept and acknowledge counterpoints like the one you've shared with us.
I agree with Windcoarse, that everyone complains. Also, I don't think you should take complaining as necessarily a negative thing, I mean, I'm a very talkative player as well, and sometimes I want to talk about what went wrong or formats in general. We're geeks and like to talk about the good times and bad.
I signed up here at PureMTGO just to reply to this because I feel so strongly that being mute/silent is, indeed, insulting. Ok, let's say he's flat out complaining and throwing a pity party. You could at least say, "Yeah" or even "yeah, sealed formats are full of luck of the cracked pack". Something. Anything. If someone came up to you in real life and asked you for the time and said how his watch was stolen and he can't afford another, blah blah blah, are you going to just ignore him . . . a cold, hard snub?
MTGO is a pretty cold place as it is, and I enjoy reaching out and making it more human, be it by commenting on what's going on in the game, wishing a player good luck (even if they're mute) and saying "good game" or "thanks for the games". Staying silent when someone is not being an outright jerk just adds to the coldness of MTGO, and to me, that equals adding to the problem, not solving it.
Sorry if that's a bit long. =) Feel free to ignore this. ;-P
I hear that you're on a budget regarding the planeswalkers you don't play. This is fine and all but please, please, play Ancient Ziggurat in your deck. It should be fantastic, the only disadvatage being that it's useless when trying to hardcast a conscription.
You can't T3 Beseech into Damnation for obvious reasons (at least not in MBC). Other than this small blunder it was a nice and informative article, and I really liked the first list despite of its parasitic and "tribal"-like approach.
I concede when I know my opponent has earned the win. I must say, if I still played any sort of casual game online I would likely put something to the effect of "no quitters" in my tag. It's a fine idea. I just find better use of what time I do have to play drafting, so that's all I do now.
Personally, I would never re-examine my approach to the game for playing in a perfectly legal and fair manner. If I was bringing tourney decks to the table, then sure that's out of line for a non competitive arena, but for playing a specific type of card never. I've played all sorts of games all my life, and people screaming "cheap" happens everywhere. I'd recommend reading Sirlin's "Playing to win" for anyone who uses the word cheap to describe a style of play in a game, even if its just to understand where the other player is coming from. Ever since games have gone online the mantra seems to be, "If you can't beat it, call it cheap." But, now I'm the one digressing. I guess I just wanted you to know the background of my POV.
And now I'm going to sleep, or something like it. Good talking with you Paul.
I love to actually see the wolf decks. I actually built a paper one myself a while ago, with the Wolfbriar Elementals (I don't see them put in your decks?). My alternative kill was a Stuffy Doll to deal the damage to with Master of the Wild Hunt.
But that is not Extended I guess (I play casual Legacy).
In a perfect world everyone would be responsible to the same degree. However, what really is responsibility? My Dad used to say it is the individual's ability to respond. (Simple right?) Some people are more limited in this fashion than others. To some the only response they can muster vs duress is concession. Imho if you face constant concessions from one card it is time to examine YOUR approach to the game.
You might want to think about finding a more narrow criteria for your own games. Such as "No Quitters" or "Bring your A game" Ive seen both those messages and I assume they are effective since the players in question have been posting them for a while now. Now if you post a match/game and explicitly request no concessions (meaning preemptive concessions, not "oh you got this, gg") and someone violates that then you block them so they can't do it again.
This goes to the principle of the only person you must please is yourself. Everyone else is merely a bonus. I prefer to please more than myself but at this basic level of responsibility you are hurting no one. I believe in caring about others and respecting your fellow people whether you dislike them or their actions but at some point it is simpler to just block and move on.
The constant complaints I see in Cas Cas about concessions are just as constantly derided for the whining they are. EVEN though I think complaints are valid in general, complaining about a specific player in chat who quit X game is just whining as it serves no other purpose. (Shame? Doesn't exist online.) So it goes in a vicious circle when the whole thing can be avoided by eliminating those whose behavior you find undesirable from your play circle.
I get that you weren't attacking concession as a general principle but it seemed a good time to make that point. Since often in these discussions that becomes a sidetracking bone of contention.
If someone is going to concede to commonly played spells, perhaps its for the best to start their own game and put their requirements for a complete game somewhere where everyone can see it. I just think its a time waster for everyone if they are going to be that picky and not take steps to avoid that situation. The game gave them the tools, so why not use them? There are two people involved in the game, and its frustrating to get constant concessions for playing a card like duress. Especially if they could have avoided the situation entirely. Concession isn't the only tool players have at their disposal to avoid playing against cards they don't like. If someone ignores a blatant sign that you don't want to play against discard or something, I wouldn't play it out with someone like that either. At the same token I don't expect my opponents to be psychic and just assume I will scoop to card X if they play it. At the very least I'd ask the other player at the start of the match if he's playing whatever it is I wouldn't want to play against, so as not to waste his time if we get into a match only to concede because he plays some card I hate.
If someone needs accommodations not explicitly stated in the same rules everyone is playing by, then shouldn't they have a responsibility to the other player to let them know if they stand to potentially waste his/her game time?
To clarify I wasn't bashing concession in general. I didn't mean to leave that impression. I don't even mean to say its never acceptable to concede to someone you don't want to play against for any reason, after all I'm not some kind of fascist. I just don't think it should become a trend is all. It doesn't really have to be that way, I think there is a better option.
The implication that something is wrong with people who concede to cards/effects they dislike is misleading at the very least. As if it isn't easy to find matches online. Sure finding players you want repeat matches with can be trying but that's a different story. I can see someone being frustrated with running into constant "spoiler" cards and not wanting to adjust their decks to deal with the "unfairness".
I am fairly certain concession is the one thing about magic online that is a good thing. Imagine if you could NOT concede at will. Ponder that for a bit. Poor sportsmanship is abusive language directed at you and your deck, stalling (not simply a pause but minutes going by without action), disconnecting without a good reason, etc. The former is a violation of the Coc so you can be proactive with that if you want and you can just concede and block vs the dcers (in casual games, as in tourneys if your op dcs you just wait them out for the win.)
the commotion is because they made a point to mention they fixed card art...they rarely mentioned card art. Hence people are freaking out that this is 'clearly a sign' mox ruby is in med4
Correction Hammy. If you are talking about the art for Mox Ruby being in the Pics directory, it has been there for almost 2 months now, along with every other card from Alpha and Beta, yes that included Ancestral Recall. Not sure what all the commotion is about, unless people are thinking those will be in Master's 4.
Great program as always, the lifegain humans deck sounds pretty awesome. ONe of these days I'd love to play Aj in a game or two of Heirloom(http://puremtgo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1996&sid=84df5d4422063630...) (my screnname is Xaoslegend on MTGO)
I've now done three 4BS events and done quite well in them (8-1 so far so my opinion is probably biased). I found them very interesting. My first two decks were both what felt like underpowered and removal light WB decks. One had a Serra Angel, neither had playable rares or Mythics, but I went 5-1 with them. Their only real strength was evasion and low curves but this proved to be good enough. My third deck was just busted with Frost Titan and Platinum angel to go with a solid array of green and blue cards.
From this limited experience I draw a few conclusions:
The sideboard is very powerful in these events because you have a pretty good chance to find whatever you board in. This means that you need to be aware of all your niche cards and leverage them to the best of your ability. With one of the WB decks I had to use a boarded in Temple Bell and Elixir of Immortality to deck a player who had two royal assassins that I could not remove.
2-1 and the the 3 packs is always an achievable goal, no matter what your pool (at least right now). Many people compromise and opt for 3 colors or assume that the format is slow (which it can be) and don't pay much attention to constructing a curve. The resulting mire of largely mopey midrange decks with motley assortments of removal create an environment that hyper aggressive *and* super defensive game plans both seem to be very effective.
Maybe this will change, but for the moment it seems to be an interesting wrinkle on sealed.
34 creatures + 24 lands + 2 other spells = 60
Interesting, considering the idea is the solution most highly recommended by wotc employees (ORCS) for dealing with people bringing decks you can't or don't want to handle.
I tend to not limit my games but I have occasionally put something like "no more elves please" in my tribal wars classic games after seeing 30 in a row. (Only happened twice but it was enough to warrant a message.) However, labeling people who do that as being contentious is a mistake I think. Just like generalizing about people doing anything is usually bad form. Simple yeah but bad form no doubt.
The "fast players" posters are the exception to that rule as the very concept is rather rude and inconsiderate.
I am a little surprised at you Linton, being "Mr. Danger" and all Id think you'd be happy to risk a few occasions of having to block someone to potentially have a good time.
==edit== though I imagine your experience in your format has more to do with it than anything else. Classic being a huge minefield of all kinds of players.
like i said 58 card deck?
I've always loved extreme focus in deck construction, well done. - I know Stompy (In pauper anyways) does it via evasion and Shinen of Life's Roar acting as a lure. If a deck can manage it, it sure does 'pump it up' in a testosterone sort of way...
Great article, and congratulations on the soon-to-be baby! Having a month old baby, I warn you: don't start any drafts if you are the only one watching the kid. I'm out two draft sets to daddy duties.
The international team is terrible. They are not subjective at all, and always include people who think they are psychics. Take this scenario:
TAPS: Think I heard a voice. I'm going to see if I can recreate the sound by moving some furniture around.
International TAPS: OH MY GOD I HEAR YOU SPIRITS! SPEAK AGAIN, PLEASE!
If you can afford it, I recommend Linvala somewhere in your 75 (probably over the Ranger main). I recently started playing 3 main in Mythic and 1 in the side, and they are fantastic. Plus, it's a card that shuts you down pretty bad, so you could take advantage of the legend rule and play your own.
The above poster is right about the Ziggurat; typically the reasons not to run it are manlands and planeswalkers, which you have left out (which I like, by the way).
Thanks for the article, enjoyed it.
More often than not, the people who put something in there have a bone to pick with everything, and are much more likely to start verbally blasting you. My favourite are the ones who put "fast players please" then concede when you take more than 2 seconds to figure out which 2 cards to put back from brainstorm.
try to get someone to send u their "DOSet" folder and replace urs with it.. =)
Thank you for your reply.
I generally don't talk very much during the game because I like to focus on the game. I like chatting after a match or between rounds, I just don't really like chatting in game. I realize that there are people who don't share this view and I like hearing from them.
I agree that Magic Online is a pretty cold place, and it's difficult to make friends here. A lot of that is because of the chat interface which WotC is going to improve. In my opinion it's difficult if not impossible to try to improve the community through chat during matches. During a match, tensions are running high, as well as frustration and anger. So it's very easy to hear your opponent's friendly consilatory words as condescending banter. I don't mind small chat during a match, but for the most part I don't consider it very meaningful.
Community on Magic online needs to be formed outside of matches. It's much easier to form a community on Magic Online websites, message boards, chat rooms, and clans than it is during matches. This, however, is just my opinion and I accept and acknowledge counterpoints like the one you've shared with us.
1. The Rack
2. Glittering Wish
3. Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Nom nom nom. :)
I agree with Windcoarse, that everyone complains. Also, I don't think you should take complaining as necessarily a negative thing, I mean, I'm a very talkative player as well, and sometimes I want to talk about what went wrong or formats in general. We're geeks and like to talk about the good times and bad.
I signed up here at PureMTGO just to reply to this because I feel so strongly that being mute/silent is, indeed, insulting. Ok, let's say he's flat out complaining and throwing a pity party. You could at least say, "Yeah" or even "yeah, sealed formats are full of luck of the cracked pack". Something. Anything. If someone came up to you in real life and asked you for the time and said how his watch was stolen and he can't afford another, blah blah blah, are you going to just ignore him . . . a cold, hard snub?
MTGO is a pretty cold place as it is, and I enjoy reaching out and making it more human, be it by commenting on what's going on in the game, wishing a player good luck (even if they're mute) and saying "good game" or "thanks for the games". Staying silent when someone is not being an outright jerk just adds to the coldness of MTGO, and to me, that equals adding to the problem, not solving it.
Sorry if that's a bit long. =) Feel free to ignore this. ;-P
Hi there,
I hear that you're on a budget regarding the planeswalkers you don't play. This is fine and all but please, please, play Ancient Ziggurat in your deck. It should be fantastic, the only disadvatage being that it's useless when trying to hardcast a conscription.
cheers!
You can't T3 Beseech into Damnation for obvious reasons (at least not in MBC). Other than this small blunder it was a nice and informative article, and I really liked the first list despite of its parasitic and "tribal"-like approach.
I concede when I know my opponent has earned the win. I must say, if I still played any sort of casual game online I would likely put something to the effect of "no quitters" in my tag. It's a fine idea. I just find better use of what time I do have to play drafting, so that's all I do now.
Personally, I would never re-examine my approach to the game for playing in a perfectly legal and fair manner. If I was bringing tourney decks to the table, then sure that's out of line for a non competitive arena, but for playing a specific type of card never. I've played all sorts of games all my life, and people screaming "cheap" happens everywhere. I'd recommend reading Sirlin's "Playing to win" for anyone who uses the word cheap to describe a style of play in a game, even if its just to understand where the other player is coming from. Ever since games have gone online the mantra seems to be, "If you can't beat it, call it cheap." But, now I'm the one digressing. I guess I just wanted you to know the background of my POV.
And now I'm going to sleep, or something like it. Good talking with you Paul.
I love to actually see the wolf decks. I actually built a paper one myself a while ago, with the Wolfbriar Elementals (I don't see them put in your decks?). My alternative kill was a Stuffy Doll to deal the damage to with Master of the Wild Hunt.
But that is not Extended I guess (I play casual Legacy).
In a perfect world everyone would be responsible to the same degree. However, what really is responsibility? My Dad used to say it is the individual's ability to respond. (Simple right?) Some people are more limited in this fashion than others. To some the only response they can muster vs duress is concession. Imho if you face constant concessions from one card it is time to examine YOUR approach to the game.
You might want to think about finding a more narrow criteria for your own games. Such as "No Quitters" or "Bring your A game" Ive seen both those messages and I assume they are effective since the players in question have been posting them for a while now. Now if you post a match/game and explicitly request no concessions (meaning preemptive concessions, not "oh you got this, gg") and someone violates that then you block them so they can't do it again.
This goes to the principle of the only person you must please is yourself. Everyone else is merely a bonus. I prefer to please more than myself but at this basic level of responsibility you are hurting no one. I believe in caring about others and respecting your fellow people whether you dislike them or their actions but at some point it is simpler to just block and move on.
The constant complaints I see in Cas Cas about concessions are just as constantly derided for the whining they are. EVEN though I think complaints are valid in general, complaining about a specific player in chat who quit X game is just whining as it serves no other purpose. (Shame? Doesn't exist online.) So it goes in a vicious circle when the whole thing can be avoided by eliminating those whose behavior you find undesirable from your play circle.
I get that you weren't attacking concession as a general principle but it seemed a good time to make that point. Since often in these discussions that becomes a sidetracking bone of contention.
If someone is going to concede to commonly played spells, perhaps its for the best to start their own game and put their requirements for a complete game somewhere where everyone can see it. I just think its a time waster for everyone if they are going to be that picky and not take steps to avoid that situation. The game gave them the tools, so why not use them? There are two people involved in the game, and its frustrating to get constant concessions for playing a card like duress. Especially if they could have avoided the situation entirely. Concession isn't the only tool players have at their disposal to avoid playing against cards they don't like. If someone ignores a blatant sign that you don't want to play against discard or something, I wouldn't play it out with someone like that either. At the same token I don't expect my opponents to be psychic and just assume I will scoop to card X if they play it. At the very least I'd ask the other player at the start of the match if he's playing whatever it is I wouldn't want to play against, so as not to waste his time if we get into a match only to concede because he plays some card I hate.
If someone needs accommodations not explicitly stated in the same rules everyone is playing by, then shouldn't they have a responsibility to the other player to let them know if they stand to potentially waste his/her game time?
To clarify I wasn't bashing concession in general. I didn't mean to leave that impression. I don't even mean to say its never acceptable to concede to someone you don't want to play against for any reason, after all I'm not some kind of fascist. I just don't think it should become a trend is all. It doesn't really have to be that way, I think there is a better option.
The implication that something is wrong with people who concede to cards/effects they dislike is misleading at the very least. As if it isn't easy to find matches online. Sure finding players you want repeat matches with can be trying but that's a different story. I can see someone being frustrated with running into constant "spoiler" cards and not wanting to adjust their decks to deal with the "unfairness".
I am fairly certain concession is the one thing about magic online that is a good thing. Imagine if you could NOT concede at will. Ponder that for a bit. Poor sportsmanship is abusive language directed at you and your deck, stalling (not simply a pause but minutes going by without action), disconnecting without a good reason, etc. The former is a violation of the Coc so you can be proactive with that if you want and you can just concede and block vs the dcers (in casual games, as in tourneys if your op dcs you just wait them out for the win.)
grrrr...
1. Something
2. Glittering Wish
3. Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
the commotion is because they made a point to mention they fixed card art...they rarely mentioned card art. Hence people are freaking out that this is 'clearly a sign' mox ruby is in med4
Correction Hammy. If you are talking about the art for Mox Ruby being in the Pics directory, it has been there for almost 2 months now, along with every other card from Alpha and Beta, yes that included Ancestral Recall. Not sure what all the commotion is about, unless people are thinking those will be in Master's 4.
as usual, and have fun with the (soon to be) 3rd player at your table.