I haven't been playing much due to money issues, and I could never get into pauper for two of the reasons you mention (staple costs & the fact that it doesn't "feel" like magic without the rarities).
Do you have a site with the ban lists & events? Having a script that ran price checks and automatically updated the list would be pretty sweet....
got 4x Pyroblast, 4x Martyr of Ashes, 4x Raze and 3 Gorilla SHamans. I tend to lose the seething songs against anything with counters...and the C.Wisps can come/go pretty easily. It draws a lot of cards for a red deck, also - this has to be the fastest deck out there, it kills on turn 2, not consistantly, but about 1 in 6 games - nuts. That being said, you have to be aggressive on the mulligan - if you don't have warrens and/or kiln fiend, you need to usually mulligan - depending on matchup. Always avoid siding out lavadarts - they're the glue that makes this thing tick.
Almost used Harth Charm - but its alt ability triggers kiln fiend in a bad way - the rest is deluxe...just thought g.bushwhacker was too expensive, and I tend to "just" get the mana to go off with no extra in my games.
Great to hear from you. While there are certain things about Heirloom that are different than other constructed formats I think the essential elements of most exist. While you don't have combo decks that go-off turn 1-3 there are certianly combo engines that take over by turn 4-6 pretty strongly. Red deck wins type decks I think can be quite competitive, their power has been reduced but then so has every other top type of deck as well. While the exclusion of Planeswalkers for the time being is a certainty it's unfortunately also the source of a great amount of budget creep lately.
As far as popularity goes of course pauper has advantages, but one of the reasons it has them now is because players decided that while it wasn't supported by wizards it was still worth playing. Certainly one of the biggest issues for the format is the labor of having to look up cards. As far as legal cards becoming legal goes so far with my 8 decks I haven't run into it, but sometimes I'll be playing someone and I'll notice a card that's banned(I've started having an Heirloom sense heh). So then it's just about politely mentioning it and continuing to have a good time. The only critical time to check is for player run events where there are prizes and more scrutiny. Personally I always play the game windowed and constantly check prices for trading or buying anyway (or rare drafting) so it's pretty natural for me and not as bad as all that.
Whether its precon commons or out of print ones I find the budget creep of pauper making it's name less and less appropriate. It's still a great format, though I prefer Heirloom =].
I know this may sound paranoid, but I sometimes wonder if MTGO packs are really random. A clever system could be designed to give packs from various tiers depending on how new a player was, with better packs (i.e., packs with chase/value cards) going to new players to entice them into the game, and mediocre packs going players who are clearly so hooked to the game that they will keep playing regardless of the junk they open. I would feel much reassured to see some data disproving my paranoid theory. It sometimes seems like it's impossible for me to open certain high value mythics, though it's hard to tell if that's an accurate perception or not.
Thanks for taking a look at my article. I appreciate your concerns about the format. The inconsistency between mtgotrader prices and other bots will certianly occur (though the vast majority of the time mtgotraders has the best price) The important thing is to have a ultimate basis for banning and mtgotraders is a large enough entity that it fulfills this purpose.
The other fix to this I mentioned as up-coming in the article.
"Right now legality of cards shifts whenever mtgotraders updates a price, however in the future the popular idea is to make cards legal and illegal at the beginning of each month to last for one month."
"The other issue I personally have with Pauper is also one of the things that makes it unique: It's just not the same as magic with all rarities included. There are certain types of decks and facets to the game that pauper simply lacks. It's a different kind of magic altogether. This isn't a bad thing. Variety is the spice of life, and magic. For me however I want most of my constructed play to be more like "normal" magic, and to have something like Pauper as an occasional alternative."
But Heirloom by your own admission will not play like "normal" magic. I will not face a powerful counterspell deck as the best options are out of the price ranges you have set. I will not face a Storm deck, which is found in pauper and classic (maybe Legacy, I have no idea). Red Deck Wins is seriously impacted by the lack of Lightning Bolt and other staples. This will not have Planeswalkers, which means it won't play like any non-Pauper format.
____________________________________________
I like the concept, but I think pauper's rise in popularity (and it is definitely far more popular now than it was three years ago) is due to two factors: a weekly Premier Event and, most importantly, the pauper filter that is available in the deck editor.
I would expect deck building to be a nightmare, and that obstacle is beyond huge for building a deck and, more importantly, ensuring the deck is still legal. I want to play Magic, not look through a price list before every game to see if I am still allowed to play a deck.
____________________________________________
"For a format with it's name it has some pretty expensive singles in it. Some of this is because of natural market forces and some is straight up wizards exploitation and gouging by printing up-coming commons in preconstructed decks. Often as one ofs. It's a practice I don't see stopping any time soon, and in the far far future when all sets are online the market forces will weigh pauper down even more and wizards can still print commons from up-coming sets in their precons."
I suspect the inclusion in pre-cons will continue to decline. After the Mercadian Masques block is out, I just don't see the pre-cons being an issue. Sure, Elspeth vs. Tezzeret will include Scars of Mirrodin commons, but it is only coming out one month for Scars is released. The bigger issue on cost is that legacy sets that are released are not purchased at nearly the same level as newer sets, making powerful commons harder to find. Most of the cards you listed are not costly because of pre-con releases by Wizards, but beause they are powerful commons in out-of-print sets.
It looks like an interesting format. But I have to be honest when I say that with a constantly changing card pool (which could make a deck legal one week and illegal the next) it looks like it could be a lot of unnecessary work just to keep track.
I think any format based on price, especially the secondary market price, is going to have a very high hurdle to overcome. What if heath has a common for .12 but other bots have it for .03? I think that price is just to variable to base a format off of.
P1P3: It's only the 3rd pick and you are already giving up on Knights. Ironically, your next two picks are common knights. 2/2 First Strike for 3 is solid, and it becomes a fantastic card with even 1 of those Cloud Crusaders out. Your argument holds merit later in the draft, but I am always picking the Knight in pack 1.
P1P13: Thunder Strike is virtually unplayable. I've seen it used a few times successfully, but I still never find room for it maindeck and it never comes in out of the board. Demolish however is a great sideboard card and frequently gets sided in to deal with pesky equipment or Crystal Balls.
P3P3: Armored Ascension is, for all intents and purposes, a bomb. Even with an Ember Haulers, the Ascension provides a finisher while the Griffin is just another efficient creature.
P3P4: I think I take the Terramorphic here, especially because I just took the 2nd Ascension. This will make casting a turn 2 Ember Hauler a lot easier in a deck that wants to play a lot of plains.
P3P6: One card does not make a deck un-aggresive. Arbiter is an outright game winning bomb. Without removal, he's good game. The griffin is solid, but you already have some good 3 drops, why not take the game winner?
P3P10: Canyon Minotaur sucks but it might make the deck.
P3P11: Sorcerer's Strongbox is another card that sits in the board whenever I'm playing blue, but in these so called aggressive decks, it's a solid card to re-fill your hand after you've already blown your load on a bunch of bears. I'd play one in this deck.
All in all, I think you could've built a winning deck in RW. Arc Runner has been sub-par for me, and with 3 in the deck, I think the Lava Axe is redundant. Also, why would you sit safe passage. That card has won me game after game. It is a mid to late pick, but I tend to run every one I draft.
I like Shattering Pulse over Shattering Spree. Shattering Spree costs a lot less, but Pulse is an instant and as long as you have 5 mana you can re-use it as much as you want. Short of a counter or discard, once it's in your hand you don't have to worry about opponent's artifacts for the rest of the game.
I would also like to nominate Slave of Bolas. It's a great way to get rid of opponent's indestructible or regenerating creatures. Plus you can usually swing for some damage before you sacrifice them.
Also Myojin of Cleansing Fire. It's expensive, but I like an indestructible creature with a built in wrath effect.
Finding a Tribal game is pretty easy. The casual room is pretty easy to find a game. While not instanteous like Standard, I can typically find an opponent within 5 minutes (often less).
There is also a PRE called Tribal Apocalypse on Saturdays, but it does have a few additional cards banned. Check out the PRE sections of Wizards message boards for more details.
Because I am an idiot at times. I was so focused on getting around Stillmoon Cavalier that I wasn't thinking. Going into that turn, my actual thoughts were, if I draw x, y, or z, I have this game. One of those cards I was hoping for was Aeolipile, but I have used Sign in Blood to win multiple games via its direct damage.
It seems to me that Crystal Ball could be even better in 30 card decks than it is in 40 card decks. I've been thinking about trying it out as a singleton in 60 card standard decks, just to see how it does there. Love the card.
Thanks for a good article, I've been looking forward to trying the format myself & this look at it is helpful.
It looks to me like you are just about breaking even. You are down about 20 packs worth about $80 and you have mythics worth about $50-$60 from what u described. Add in a bunch of your 1 tix rares (DoJ etc.) and you have about 36hrs of play time costing u less than $10. That seems ok to me. And you should have enough packs to rinse and repeat for a good while yet if u can keep up the same win rate. You'll eventually open most of what u want and get to play lots of sealed. Makes me wish I had 100 packs (and a better sealed rating).
Well Flip great read and yes made me rebuild a classic and a few Legacy decks last night and also spent some time in the TP room playing them.
What I found was I had forgotten how to play the Classic format, may sound strange but after playing STD for the last few months I just forget how to play the decks... argh rambling
As for the TP room never really suffered from the points made so far and I have played rogue decks and T1 decks in classic/STD/EXT and Legacy, maybe as mentioned people have been kind and not said anything but if people didn’t play rogue we would have no new decks and the formats would become very stale.
So I would never knock a guy/girl for a rogue deck as it brings fresh ideas and once they have it tuned maybe the next T1 deck that everyone wants
What I do find that makes me smile is the amount of people that watch your games; you can spend a couple of mins waiting for a opponent and as soon as your game starts there 3-10 people watching
Well hope that all makes sense ... one reason i never write articles i say never makes sense :)
I played Classic for the first time last night... Some weird UB Control deck with Sygg and Tinker and Sol Ring and whatever other crap I could fit into it... So fun... couldn't stop... Gah! Erg! Bleg! /dead
Great article! Just played 2 games against a similar black warrior deck. Game 1 he got Reassembling Skeleton plus Contamination, completely locking me out as early as turn three. Game two he went turn 2 Dark Ritual into double Hymn to Tourach. Nice. Deck.
I couldn't complain because I was playing this Shaman deck:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kiki-Jiki
4 Pestermite
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Rootbound Crag
5 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Island
Sometimes I wonder if my decks are too competitive for the Casual Room. Sometimes I get Contamination locked on turn 3.
I liked seeing Barbed Shocker in the list. I run it in my R/G Stonebrow deck and it's fantastic. Not too mention it's easier to hit with when it gets the +2/+2 bonus.
Nope - I'm still playing because it's fun, and 4 pack sealed is about the only event I can play in the 2 hour blocks I can get free. 4 pack sealed is faster than a draft.
Last year, I got about the same amount of M10 from GenCon, and I drafted M10 whenever I had some free time until February. I'll probably still be playing M11 sealed months from now.
The thing is, 4 booster sealed is slow anyways, so it doesn't matter as much that Crystal Ball is slow. Crystal Ball makes every other card in your deck better, because it allows your to better control when you are getting them. I would rather see it in my pool than anything else, because it is always palayble, and it is very powerful. Of course, I would love to get Chandra and lots of good red. I would love to get Grave Titan and lots of good blue. But in 4 booster sealed, you just can't count on this. That is why Crystal Ball is so good in 4 boooster sealed. Of course, it is sort of a moot point, because it is so good that you will always play it in 4 booster sealed, but so Fireball, so rating it doesn't really make that much of a difference.
3) it's not fun
I haven't been playing much due to money issues, and I could never get into pauper for two of the reasons you mention (staple costs & the fact that it doesn't "feel" like magic without the rarities).
Do you have a site with the ban lists & events? Having a script that ran price checks and automatically updated the list would be pretty sweet....
got 4x Pyroblast, 4x Martyr of Ashes, 4x Raze and 3 Gorilla SHamans. I tend to lose the seething songs against anything with counters...and the C.Wisps can come/go pretty easily. It draws a lot of cards for a red deck, also - this has to be the fastest deck out there, it kills on turn 2, not consistantly, but about 1 in 6 games - nuts. That being said, you have to be aggressive on the mulligan - if you don't have warrens and/or kiln fiend, you need to usually mulligan - depending on matchup. Always avoid siding out lavadarts - they're the glue that makes this thing tick.
Almost used Harth Charm - but its alt ability triggers kiln fiend in a bad way - the rest is deluxe...just thought g.bushwhacker was too expensive, and I tend to "just" get the mana to go off with no extra in my games.
Hey Kalandine,
Great to hear from you. While there are certain things about Heirloom that are different than other constructed formats I think the essential elements of most exist. While you don't have combo decks that go-off turn 1-3 there are certianly combo engines that take over by turn 4-6 pretty strongly. Red deck wins type decks I think can be quite competitive, their power has been reduced but then so has every other top type of deck as well. While the exclusion of Planeswalkers for the time being is a certainty it's unfortunately also the source of a great amount of budget creep lately.
As far as popularity goes of course pauper has advantages, but one of the reasons it has them now is because players decided that while it wasn't supported by wizards it was still worth playing. Certainly one of the biggest issues for the format is the labor of having to look up cards. As far as legal cards becoming legal goes so far with my 8 decks I haven't run into it, but sometimes I'll be playing someone and I'll notice a card that's banned(I've started having an Heirloom sense heh). So then it's just about politely mentioning it and continuing to have a good time. The only critical time to check is for player run events where there are prizes and more scrutiny. Personally I always play the game windowed and constantly check prices for trading or buying anyway (or rare drafting) so it's pretty natural for me and not as bad as all that.
Whether its precon commons or out of print ones I find the budget creep of pauper making it's name less and less appropriate. It's still a great format, though I prefer Heirloom =].
I know this may sound paranoid, but I sometimes wonder if MTGO packs are really random. A clever system could be designed to give packs from various tiers depending on how new a player was, with better packs (i.e., packs with chase/value cards) going to new players to entice them into the game, and mediocre packs going players who are clearly so hooked to the game that they will keep playing regardless of the junk they open. I would feel much reassured to see some data disproving my paranoid theory. It sometimes seems like it's impossible for me to open certain high value mythics, though it's hard to tell if that's an accurate perception or not.
Thanks for taking a look at my article. I appreciate your concerns about the format. The inconsistency between mtgotrader prices and other bots will certianly occur (though the vast majority of the time mtgotraders has the best price) The important thing is to have a ultimate basis for banning and mtgotraders is a large enough entity that it fulfills this purpose.
The other fix to this I mentioned as up-coming in the article.
"Right now legality of cards shifts whenever mtgotraders updates a price, however in the future the popular idea is to make cards legal and illegal at the beginning of each month to last for one month."
Xaoslegend-
"The other issue I personally have with Pauper is also one of the things that makes it unique: It's just not the same as magic with all rarities included. There are certain types of decks and facets to the game that pauper simply lacks. It's a different kind of magic altogether. This isn't a bad thing. Variety is the spice of life, and magic. For me however I want most of my constructed play to be more like "normal" magic, and to have something like Pauper as an occasional alternative."
But Heirloom by your own admission will not play like "normal" magic. I will not face a powerful counterspell deck as the best options are out of the price ranges you have set. I will not face a Storm deck, which is found in pauper and classic (maybe Legacy, I have no idea). Red Deck Wins is seriously impacted by the lack of Lightning Bolt and other staples. This will not have Planeswalkers, which means it won't play like any non-Pauper format.
____________________________________________
I like the concept, but I think pauper's rise in popularity (and it is definitely far more popular now than it was three years ago) is due to two factors: a weekly Premier Event and, most importantly, the pauper filter that is available in the deck editor.
I would expect deck building to be a nightmare, and that obstacle is beyond huge for building a deck and, more importantly, ensuring the deck is still legal. I want to play Magic, not look through a price list before every game to see if I am still allowed to play a deck.
____________________________________________
"For a format with it's name it has some pretty expensive singles in it. Some of this is because of natural market forces and some is straight up wizards exploitation and gouging by printing up-coming commons in preconstructed decks. Often as one ofs. It's a practice I don't see stopping any time soon, and in the far far future when all sets are online the market forces will weigh pauper down even more and wizards can still print commons from up-coming sets in their precons."
I suspect the inclusion in pre-cons will continue to decline. After the Mercadian Masques block is out, I just don't see the pre-cons being an issue. Sure, Elspeth vs. Tezzeret will include Scars of Mirrodin commons, but it is only coming out one month for Scars is released. The bigger issue on cost is that legacy sets that are released are not purchased at nearly the same level as newer sets, making powerful commons harder to find. Most of the cards you listed are not costly because of pre-con releases by Wizards, but beause they are powerful commons in out-of-print sets.
40 is NOT 24, that's why they're different @#%&ing NUMBERS!
Sorry, couldn't ignore a Lewis Black joke when I see one XD Good article.
It looks like an interesting format. But I have to be honest when I say that with a constantly changing card pool (which could make a deck legal one week and illegal the next) it looks like it could be a lot of unnecessary work just to keep track.
I think any format based on price, especially the secondary market price, is going to have a very high hurdle to overcome. What if heath has a common for .12 but other bots have it for .03? I think that price is just to variable to base a format off of.
A few critiques:
P1P3: It's only the 3rd pick and you are already giving up on Knights. Ironically, your next two picks are common knights. 2/2 First Strike for 3 is solid, and it becomes a fantastic card with even 1 of those Cloud Crusaders out. Your argument holds merit later in the draft, but I am always picking the Knight in pack 1.
P1P13: Thunder Strike is virtually unplayable. I've seen it used a few times successfully, but I still never find room for it maindeck and it never comes in out of the board. Demolish however is a great sideboard card and frequently gets sided in to deal with pesky equipment or Crystal Balls.
P3P3: Armored Ascension is, for all intents and purposes, a bomb. Even with an Ember Haulers, the Ascension provides a finisher while the Griffin is just another efficient creature.
P3P4: I think I take the Terramorphic here, especially because I just took the 2nd Ascension. This will make casting a turn 2 Ember Hauler a lot easier in a deck that wants to play a lot of plains.
P3P6: One card does not make a deck un-aggresive. Arbiter is an outright game winning bomb. Without removal, he's good game. The griffin is solid, but you already have some good 3 drops, why not take the game winner?
P3P10: Canyon Minotaur sucks but it might make the deck.
P3P11: Sorcerer's Strongbox is another card that sits in the board whenever I'm playing blue, but in these so called aggressive decks, it's a solid card to re-fill your hand after you've already blown your load on a bunch of bears. I'd play one in this deck.
All in all, I think you could've built a winning deck in RW. Arc Runner has been sub-par for me, and with 3 in the deck, I think the Lava Axe is redundant. Also, why would you sit safe passage. That card has won me game after game. It is a mid to late pick, but I tend to run every one I draft.
I like Shattering Pulse over Shattering Spree. Shattering Spree costs a lot less, but Pulse is an instant and as long as you have 5 mana you can re-use it as much as you want. Short of a counter or discard, once it's in your hand you don't have to worry about opponent's artifacts for the rest of the game.
I would also like to nominate Slave of Bolas. It's a great way to get rid of opponent's indestructible or regenerating creatures. Plus you can usually swing for some damage before you sacrifice them.
Also Myojin of Cleansing Fire. It's expensive, but I like an indestructible creature with a built in wrath effect.
Finding a Tribal game is pretty easy. The casual room is pretty easy to find a game. While not instanteous like Standard, I can typically find an opponent within 5 minutes (often less).
There is also a PRE called Tribal Apocalypse on Saturdays, but it does have a few additional cards banned. Check out the PRE sections of Wizards message boards for more details.
Because I am an idiot at times. I was so focused on getting around Stillmoon Cavalier that I wasn't thinking. Going into that turn, my actual thoughts were, if I draw x, y, or z, I have this game. One of those cards I was hoping for was Aeolipile, but I have used Sign in Blood to win multiple games via its direct damage.
My bad and good observation.
It seems to me that Crystal Ball could be even better in 30 card decks than it is in 40 card decks. I've been thinking about trying it out as a singleton in 60 card standard decks, just to see how it does there. Love the card.
Thanks for a good article, I've been looking forward to trying the format myself & this look at it is helpful.
It looks to me like you are just about breaking even. You are down about 20 packs worth about $80 and you have mythics worth about $50-$60 from what u described. Add in a bunch of your 1 tix rares (DoJ etc.) and you have about 36hrs of play time costing u less than $10. That seems ok to me. And you should have enough packs to rinse and repeat for a good while yet if u can keep up the same win rate. You'll eventually open most of what u want and get to play lots of sealed. Makes me wish I had 100 packs (and a better sealed rating).
Nice article and good luck finding those titans!
Well Flip great read and yes made me rebuild a classic and a few Legacy decks last night and also spent some time in the TP room playing them.
What I found was I had forgotten how to play the Classic format, may sound strange but after playing STD for the last few months I just forget how to play the decks... argh rambling
As for the TP room never really suffered from the points made so far and I have played rogue decks and T1 decks in classic/STD/EXT and Legacy, maybe as mentioned people have been kind and not said anything but if people didn’t play rogue we would have no new decks and the formats would become very stale.
So I would never knock a guy/girl for a rogue deck as it brings fresh ideas and once they have it tuned maybe the next T1 deck that everyone wants
What I do find that makes me smile is the amount of people that watch your games; you can spend a couple of mins waiting for a opponent and as soon as your game starts there 3-10 people watching
Well hope that all makes sense ... one reason i never write articles i say never makes sense :)
Oh man...
I played Classic for the first time last night... Some weird UB Control deck with Sygg and Tinker and Sol Ring and whatever other crap I could fit into it... So fun... couldn't stop... Gah! Erg! Bleg! /dead
1 of my sealed pools was fire servant, fireball, retribution 9 mana equalled 24 damage to the face pissed off a couple of players
Funny I built a deck around splinter twin and sky hussar and felt THAT was too much for cas cas after 3 games where I won on early turns.
Great article! Just played 2 games against a similar black warrior deck. Game 1 he got Reassembling Skeleton plus Contamination, completely locking me out as early as turn three. Game two he went turn 2 Dark Ritual into double Hymn to Tourach. Nice. Deck.
I couldn't complain because I was playing this Shaman deck:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kiki-Jiki
4 Pestermite
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Rootbound Crag
5 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Island
Sometimes I wonder if my decks are too competitive for the Casual Room. Sometimes I get Contamination locked on turn 3.
I liked seeing Barbed Shocker in the list. I run it in my R/G Stonebrow deck and it's fantastic. Not too mention it's easier to hit with when it gets the +2/+2 bonus.
Nope - I'm still playing because it's fun, and 4 pack sealed is about the only event I can play in the 2 hour blocks I can get free. 4 pack sealed is faster than a draft.
Last year, I got about the same amount of M10 from GenCon, and I drafted M10 whenever I had some free time until February. I'll probably still be playing M11 sealed months from now.
I just want to have my cake and eat it, too.
I like the article. One thing though, on your last game why not just win with Sign in Blood to your opponent's face?
One card I tried and found to be incredibly strong is Planar Chaos.
You might get some hate but I've seen it counter 10 spells out of sheer luck.
Not bad for a 3cc enchantment. Especially if you have Banefire in your hand
The thing is, 4 booster sealed is slow anyways, so it doesn't matter as much that Crystal Ball is slow. Crystal Ball makes every other card in your deck better, because it allows your to better control when you are getting them. I would rather see it in my pool than anything else, because it is always palayble, and it is very powerful. Of course, I would love to get Chandra and lots of good red. I would love to get Grave Titan and lots of good blue. But in 4 booster sealed, you just can't count on this. That is why Crystal Ball is so good in 4 boooster sealed. Of course, it is sort of a moot point, because it is so good that you will always play it in 4 booster sealed, but so Fireball, so rating it doesn't really make that much of a difference.