Well in that case, we also have to consider the possibility that I just don't know what I'm talking about. Which to be fair, should probably be Plan A every time.
I'm not up to speed on most of the decks' contents, so thanks. :)
I actually think there is quite a bit of variety in the format typically, and right now is no exception. The two leading contenders right now seem to be either aggro Tokens (which itself has a variety of different variations) or control America. However, if you look back at both MPDC and SPDC events (both of which are Standard Pauper) over the past few weeks, there's been a variety of top finishers, including a mono red Aggro goblin deck.
They made this guy costly enough, both in mana and in the artifacts you have to feed him, that I don't see him as broken or amazing, and in a lot of cases he won't even be playable as Johnnies try to fit him into decks where he just doesn't get the job done.
I would disagree with the one assumption though, that the only useful way to use him is to fetch out cards costing 6 or more. In some cases, yeah. But you know, many a Tezzeret has fetched out things as small as Chalice of the Void or Engineered Explosives. I see two cases where you might want to use a tinker effect (like this guy) to fetch out something small. A) Artifact toolbox decks, particularly in broader formats (legacy, vintage, highlander) where there's more high power effects (& more silver bullets & answers) at low casting costs. (Nevinyrral's Disk, anyone?) B) Combo decks that involve artifact pieces. When I'm playing Blasting Station + Summoning Station + Mycosynth Lattice, and I have the latter two pieces in play, I don't care what it takes to get my 3 mana blasting station out - I'm doing it. Infinite damage is some good, and if the Forgemaster gives me one more chance in my deck, ok. Granted, in anything but EDH I'm probably gonna stick with Fabricate, Drift of Phantasms to transmute, Arcum Daggson, Tinker, Diabolic Tutor, any of a myriad of cheaper, easier ways to find a Blasting Station. But if a combo with at least two artifact pieces becomes strong I could see someone trying to use this guy to fetch a cheap artifact ftw.
Blue card drawing spells are probably just better, though! Again, I agree he's not that amazing, just saying sometimes fetching a cheaper artifact with him might be The Play. Maybe when the block is all released some cards will produce amazing synergy with him and make him even playable. I'm not holding my breath waiting, but we'll see.
heh yes and no. You know for instance online commander decks tend to be either combo or control. No aggro in general because those types of decks tend to not only fall short but get stomped by the fatties of the late game control decks and can't do anything to stop combos from going off. So you know whether a card being aggro, combo or control fits in your commander decks. In EDH (a game I haven't had the opportunity to play sadly) I am sure things vary enough between play groups that the meta choices are more difficult but still you have the ability to narrow down the choices a bit. (Eg: If you know a group tends to favor board controlling sweepers like pestilence and pyroclasm etc you will be hard pressed to include 1 and 2 toughness creatures (like Royal Assassin) which will most certainly die early and often.) So while there is no set deck list to fish against you can do a lot of weeding just by knowing the meta.
Hey just wanted to say you will be missed on the pod cast. Hope whatever you are doing instead is more fun and worth it. The demon looks absolutely terrific (in all senses of that word) as demons go. I expect it will fit nicely in a number of tribal-based decks not just with demons either.
Family emergency. My wife has been in the hospital for the last four days, she's ok but I can't be there for our 3rd PRE. I've given the prizes to Mr. Slippery (an m11 pack 20 tix and tons of foils) to all be given out to participants of the event(even more than i gave out last time). I'm hoping Nagarjuna gets my messages and helps make this another great event along with anyone else who might be there to keep it going smoothly and keep it fun.
join the heirloom room for the event ( /join heirloom in any chat channel)
I hope to hear great things about this event. Remember, were all brothers in this format, and it's a joy for me to know all of you.
Take screenshots and record video of the event as you can and post decklists here. I'll tell you where to send the media when i get back to the computer.
@unspeakable: "I think stormfront pegasus may be a bit overrated, and I would have gone with the white knight in P2P2. There are a lot of 1 toughness fliers that can block the stormfront pegasus and trade, like the squadron hawk and the augury owl."
Very good point, the Pegasus does get foiled quite a bit in this format. I think the pick is still very close, it can go either way.
Regarding Squadron Hawk, I do like taking them highly but I just can't justify taking my first over Assault Griffin. I could be wrong about that though, they are pretty sweet when you manage to get three.
@lenney: You are talking about a "Bolt and Fireball splash" and how "it cost me the game". Both of these arguments stem from result-oriented thinking, and using hindsight improperly. There is no point in discussing "Bolt and Fireball splash" vs whatever else, because at the point I could have taken Lightning Bolt I had no idea that Fireball was coming, and when I saw the first Fireball I didn't have a Lightning Bolt already. What you can compare is the value of dipping into red for Lightning Bolt over Infantry Veteran(a fair argument, but I still like the Veteran). If I did already have Lightning Bolt when I saw the first Fireball, it obviously would have been my pick so that path is not worth following (like I said, I think Fireball is a better card than Triskelion, just not enough to warrant committing to a splash in an aggro deck).
Now for the "it cost me the game" argument. Firstly, you are assuming that if I had a second Fireball in my deck that I would have drawn it that game, which is simply not true. It would have increased my odds of drawing one. Secondly, yes, I was hoping to draw Fireball in that final game, and yes Triskelion wouldn't have been nearly as good in that particular situation. However, there are many situations in which Triskelion would be better, you can't just point to one example and say "Fireball is better there so it is better overall". Its sort of like saying Lightning Bolt is better than Baneslayer Angel because that one time my opponent was at 3 life and if I'd drawn Bolt instead of Baneslayer Angel I would have won. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point stands.
People hear what they want to hear. I haven't heard any speculation about Forgemaster being broken at all, but I don't discount what you have heard. Lately all I have been hearing, is Koth.
Wizards always overhypes the new cards for previews, it's part of their marketing strategy. I get that the over-exuberance bothers you, but this is nothing new.
This is a great article for anyone who is looking to join this event and takes all the guess work out of trying to start in this format. I played in a event a few weeks ago, I believe I even played against you in the first round. I wanted to get your opinion and ask if you think the format has a healthy variety to it? It seems like with the popularity of lifegain, bounce, and bringing back creatures with gravedigger, that there isn't really room for aggro. What do you think about this?
Nobody is a fan of red. Everyone who is anyone is a fan of Bolt and Fireball splash, especially after already picking up a Terramorphic Expanse. This is really a no-brainer and it cost him the game.
Pygmy Hippo is so worth it. If you read the text: "you may have defending player activate a mana ability of each land he or she controls and empty his or her mana pool." Unless they have something to spend their mana on right away any unspent mana will be drained out of their pool even if they tapped the land before the Hippo's ability triggers.
Even if you don't get the mana (because they spend it before the Hippo triggers) it will still keep you safe from most counters and can mess up an opponent's timing.
Your assumptions seem reasonable, but I wouldn't even go so far as to count the lost tournament revenue. I think the bigger loss is simply not making your customers happy and causing Eternal players not to see online as a viable environment. That would have far-reaching repurcussions.
M11 prices are interesting, in that we're still going to see a bit of it. There are 3 Paris PTQs using M11, the first of which is happening as I type this. 502 players, meaning over 3000 packs being opened. I mean that's still only 25 new Primeval Titans (wow, really? Damn Mythics...) but with 3 of those plus some practice sealeds and residual drafts, the flow of M11 still has a few weeks to go.
Some good cards are being priced low on the theory that they might not find a home in Extended. For example, Obstinate Baloth is down to 1.5. I know Blightning is gone but Discard may well come back.
Oh, and a thought back to the old Speculation topic. Look at Steel Overseer. Now aside from people messing around with Thopter Foundry, this card has no home. It's value is purely speculation. And what happened to Steel Overseer this week? It went down 23%. That's because speculators aren't trying to build a collection, and if buying pushes the price up then selling off must eventually push it down, until the net effect is the card seeking an intrisic value.
Yes, I don't really have much experience with EDH/Commander. I just have noticed a lot of "that's good in EDH" posts on the discussion boards for a lot of spoiled cards.
Which makes me wonder if the criteria for judging an EDH/Commander card is more based on politics than the actual strength of the card. I.E. look innocent and play interesting cards and the other players will leave you alone and beat up on each other.
it's only correct if dylan/jester thinks he's going to be monowhite/splash. at this point he's fighting for a second colour and i know he's not a fan of red (who would be)
One other thing I want to note and this is what I based my assumption on, Peter did a good job of giving us a example guantlet to evaluate your cards in standard. You have to re evaluate those cards against other decks when going to a different format. For EDH and Commander, there really isn't a gauntlet.
I think the card will be good and an artifact heavy Coomander/EDH deck since a lot of the bigger Haymaker spells are played in thse decks. I would gladly sacrifice a few Myr dudes to get Darksteel Forge.
As far as the statement of just about everything could be good in Commander/EDH, I would have to disagree. There are a lot of 1 v. 1 cards that are useless in Commander or EDH simply because of thier limited ussage. Lightning Bolt is one card that comes to mind. yea it can off a bothersome small creature, but in EDH/Commander, using a lightning bolt is like trying to buttner knife in a sword fight. However cards like Syphon Mind and Syphon Soul increase in value.
Sorry, let me clarify. Although I have seen snakeform, I don't see it all the time. However, there are a ton of cards out there, and I don't hit them all. I actually think Snakeform is a great combat trick. I know Momir players love it.
I have always been intimidated to join a larger event. Especially pauper. I once played some of the pauper regualrs in the PDC room and a few where quite rude to the new guy trying to learn the format.
One of these days I will give it a try.
Great premire for us noobs who really had not idea on joining the more organized events.
taking a look at preselling prices for all PW from scars (50 Bucks...) i cant believe it! On the other hand realy good Cards like M10/M11 Duals or Elvish Archdruid etc. are junk right now?
I turned to play heirloom now, where u get more and more realy strong cards for a few bucks because of the wotc policy right now!
I really like the rumor season before a new set comes out BECAUSE of the wild speculation about how good the new cards are going to be. I don't find it annoying when people get it wrong because that just keeps some eyes off of the cards I'm really interested in getting. It wouldn't be any fun if everybody knew the 5-10 really good cards in each new set and practically ignored the rest.
Besides, a lot of the cards are good in different formats. People are usually examining cards based on the formats that they play. A great card in standard could be terrible in Classic/Vintage and vice versa. And I've heard that just about everything could be good in Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander due to the political nature of that format. But I'm no expert on it.
Ah,
Well in that case, we also have to consider the possibility that I just don't know what I'm talking about. Which to be fair, should probably be Plan A every time.
I'm not up to speed on most of the decks' contents, so thanks. :)
The fun combo for this guy is with itself. Two of them in play can take turns killing everything else indefinitely. Reminds me of Pestilence Demon.
Yep, pick up your Helix Pinnacles while you can.
I actually think there is quite a bit of variety in the format typically, and right now is no exception. The two leading contenders right now seem to be either aggro Tokens (which itself has a variety of different variations) or control America. However, if you look back at both MPDC and SPDC events (both of which are Standard Pauper) over the past few weeks, there's been a variety of top finishers, including a mono red Aggro goblin deck.
They made this guy costly enough, both in mana and in the artifacts you have to feed him, that I don't see him as broken or amazing, and in a lot of cases he won't even be playable as Johnnies try to fit him into decks where he just doesn't get the job done.
I would disagree with the one assumption though, that the only useful way to use him is to fetch out cards costing 6 or more. In some cases, yeah. But you know, many a Tezzeret has fetched out things as small as Chalice of the Void or Engineered Explosives. I see two cases where you might want to use a tinker effect (like this guy) to fetch out something small. A) Artifact toolbox decks, particularly in broader formats (legacy, vintage, highlander) where there's more high power effects (& more silver bullets & answers) at low casting costs. (Nevinyrral's Disk, anyone?) B) Combo decks that involve artifact pieces. When I'm playing Blasting Station + Summoning Station + Mycosynth Lattice, and I have the latter two pieces in play, I don't care what it takes to get my 3 mana blasting station out - I'm doing it. Infinite damage is some good, and if the Forgemaster gives me one more chance in my deck, ok. Granted, in anything but EDH I'm probably gonna stick with Fabricate, Drift of Phantasms to transmute, Arcum Daggson, Tinker, Diabolic Tutor, any of a myriad of cheaper, easier ways to find a Blasting Station. But if a combo with at least two artifact pieces becomes strong I could see someone trying to use this guy to fetch a cheap artifact ftw.
Blue card drawing spells are probably just better, though! Again, I agree he's not that amazing, just saying sometimes fetching a cheaper artifact with him might be The Play. Maybe when the block is all released some cards will produce amazing synergy with him and make him even playable. I'm not holding my breath waiting, but we'll see.
heh yes and no. You know for instance online commander decks tend to be either combo or control. No aggro in general because those types of decks tend to not only fall short but get stomped by the fatties of the late game control decks and can't do anything to stop combos from going off. So you know whether a card being aggro, combo or control fits in your commander decks. In EDH (a game I haven't had the opportunity to play sadly) I am sure things vary enough between play groups that the meta choices are more difficult but still you have the ability to narrow down the choices a bit. (Eg: If you know a group tends to favor board controlling sweepers like pestilence and pyroclasm etc you will be hard pressed to include 1 and 2 toughness creatures (like Royal Assassin) which will most certainly die early and often.) So while there is no set deck list to fish against you can do a lot of weeding just by knowing the meta.
Hey just wanted to say you will be missed on the pod cast. Hope whatever you are doing instead is more fun and worth it. The demon looks absolutely terrific (in all senses of that word) as demons go. I expect it will fit nicely in a number of tribal-based decks not just with demons either.
in favor of the Demon:
you don't target anything with proliferate. You simply choose.
Hey guys,
Family emergency. My wife has been in the hospital for the last four days, she's ok but I can't be there for our 3rd PRE. I've given the prizes to Mr. Slippery (an m11 pack 20 tix and tons of foils) to all be given out to participants of the event(even more than i gave out last time). I'm hoping Nagarjuna gets my messages and helps make this another great event along with anyone else who might be there to keep it going smoothly and keep it fun.
join the heirloom room for the event ( /join heirloom in any chat channel)
I hope to hear great things about this event. Remember, were all brothers in this format, and it's a joy for me to know all of you.
Take screenshots and record video of the event as you can and post decklists here. I'll tell you where to send the media when i get back to the computer.
Good luck and good Heirlooming,
Xaoslegend-
@unspeakable: "I think stormfront pegasus may be a bit overrated, and I would have gone with the white knight in P2P2. There are a lot of 1 toughness fliers that can block the stormfront pegasus and trade, like the squadron hawk and the augury owl."
Very good point, the Pegasus does get foiled quite a bit in this format. I think the pick is still very close, it can go either way.
Regarding Squadron Hawk, I do like taking them highly but I just can't justify taking my first over Assault Griffin. I could be wrong about that though, they are pretty sweet when you manage to get three.
@lenney: You are talking about a "Bolt and Fireball splash" and how "it cost me the game". Both of these arguments stem from result-oriented thinking, and using hindsight improperly. There is no point in discussing "Bolt and Fireball splash" vs whatever else, because at the point I could have taken Lightning Bolt I had no idea that Fireball was coming, and when I saw the first Fireball I didn't have a Lightning Bolt already. What you can compare is the value of dipping into red for Lightning Bolt over Infantry Veteran(a fair argument, but I still like the Veteran). If I did already have Lightning Bolt when I saw the first Fireball, it obviously would have been my pick so that path is not worth following (like I said, I think Fireball is a better card than Triskelion, just not enough to warrant committing to a splash in an aggro deck).
Now for the "it cost me the game" argument. Firstly, you are assuming that if I had a second Fireball in my deck that I would have drawn it that game, which is simply not true. It would have increased my odds of drawing one. Secondly, yes, I was hoping to draw Fireball in that final game, and yes Triskelion wouldn't have been nearly as good in that particular situation. However, there are many situations in which Triskelion would be better, you can't just point to one example and say "Fireball is better there so it is better overall". Its sort of like saying Lightning Bolt is better than Baneslayer Angel because that one time my opponent was at 3 life and if I'd drawn Bolt instead of Baneslayer Angel I would have won. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point stands.
People hear what they want to hear. I haven't heard any speculation about Forgemaster being broken at all, but I don't discount what you have heard. Lately all I have been hearing, is Koth.
Wizards always overhypes the new cards for previews, it's part of their marketing strategy. I get that the over-exuberance bothers you, but this is nothing new.
This is a great article for anyone who is looking to join this event and takes all the guess work out of trying to start in this format. I played in a event a few weeks ago, I believe I even played against you in the first round. I wanted to get your opinion and ask if you think the format has a healthy variety to it? It seems like with the popularity of lifegain, bounce, and bringing back creatures with gravedigger, that there isn't really room for aggro. What do you think about this?
Nobody is a fan of red. Everyone who is anyone is a fan of Bolt and Fireball splash, especially after already picking up a Terramorphic Expanse. This is really a no-brainer and it cost him the game.
I think Steel Overseer went down because of Elspeth vs. Tezzeret duel decks. I know I have 3 extras now.
Pygmy Hippo is so worth it. If you read the text: "you may have defending player activate a mana ability of each land he or she controls and empty his or her mana pool." Unless they have something to spend their mana on right away any unspent mana will be drained out of their pool even if they tapped the land before the Hippo's ability triggers.
Even if you don't get the mana (because they spend it before the Hippo triggers) it will still keep you safe from most counters and can mess up an opponent's timing.
And it's a 2/2 creature for CMC 2 that's a Hippo!
Your assumptions seem reasonable, but I wouldn't even go so far as to count the lost tournament revenue. I think the bigger loss is simply not making your customers happy and causing Eternal players not to see online as a viable environment. That would have far-reaching repurcussions.
M11 prices are interesting, in that we're still going to see a bit of it. There are 3 Paris PTQs using M11, the first of which is happening as I type this. 502 players, meaning over 3000 packs being opened. I mean that's still only 25 new Primeval Titans (wow, really? Damn Mythics...) but with 3 of those plus some practice sealeds and residual drafts, the flow of M11 still has a few weeks to go.
Some good cards are being priced low on the theory that they might not find a home in Extended. For example, Obstinate Baloth is down to 1.5. I know Blightning is gone but Discard may well come back.
Oh, and a thought back to the old Speculation topic. Look at Steel Overseer. Now aside from people messing around with Thopter Foundry, this card has no home. It's value is purely speculation. And what happened to Steel Overseer this week? It went down 23%. That's because speculators aren't trying to build a collection, and if buying pushes the price up then selling off must eventually push it down, until the net effect is the card seeking an intrisic value.
Yes, I don't really have much experience with EDH/Commander. I just have noticed a lot of "that's good in EDH" posts on the discussion boards for a lot of spoiled cards.
Which makes me wonder if the criteria for judging an EDH/Commander card is more based on politics than the actual strength of the card. I.E. look innocent and play interesting cards and the other players will leave you alone and beat up on each other.
it's only correct if dylan/jester thinks he's going to be monowhite/splash. at this point he's fighting for a second colour and i know he's not a fan of red (who would be)
One other thing I want to note and this is what I based my assumption on, Peter did a good job of giving us a example guantlet to evaluate your cards in standard. You have to re evaluate those cards against other decks when going to a different format. For EDH and Commander, there really isn't a gauntlet.
Good article.
I think the card will be good and an artifact heavy Coomander/EDH deck since a lot of the bigger Haymaker spells are played in thse decks. I would gladly sacrifice a few Myr dudes to get Darksteel Forge.
As far as the statement of just about everything could be good in Commander/EDH, I would have to disagree. There are a lot of 1 v. 1 cards that are useless in Commander or EDH simply because of thier limited ussage. Lightning Bolt is one card that comes to mind. yea it can off a bothersome small creature, but in EDH/Commander, using a lightning bolt is like trying to buttner knife in a sword fight. However cards like Syphon Mind and Syphon Soul increase in value.
Sorry, let me clarify. Although I have seen snakeform, I don't see it all the time. However, there are a ton of cards out there, and I don't hit them all. I actually think Snakeform is a great combat trick. I know Momir players love it.
I have always been intimidated to join a larger event. Especially pauper. I once played some of the pauper regualrs in the PDC room and a few where quite rude to the new guy trying to learn the format.
One of these days I will give it a try.
Great premire for us noobs who really had not idea on joining the more organized events.
taking a look at preselling prices for all PW from scars (50 Bucks...) i cant believe it! On the other hand realy good Cards like M10/M11 Duals or Elvish Archdruid etc. are junk right now?
I turned to play heirloom now, where u get more and more realy strong cards for a few bucks because of the wotc policy right now!
I really like the rumor season before a new set comes out BECAUSE of the wild speculation about how good the new cards are going to be. I don't find it annoying when people get it wrong because that just keeps some eyes off of the cards I'm really interested in getting. It wouldn't be any fun if everybody knew the 5-10 really good cards in each new set and practically ignored the rest.
Besides, a lot of the cards are good in different formats. People are usually examining cards based on the formats that they play. A great card in standard could be terrible in Classic/Vintage and vice versa. And I've heard that just about everything could be good in Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander due to the political nature of that format. But I'm no expert on it.