Everything *you* have brought up is a gripe about your deck's plan being hindered through resource denial. I have tried pointing out examples of "casuals" (or at least denizens of the casual room) who are perfectly happy to play with and against resource denial.
Another, to rebut your claim above:
I have played many a WW and RDW player who was perfectly happy for me to be playing 3 and 4 mana LD spells while they play out their hand of 1 and two drops and smashed me. Likewise elves, affinity, and even most ramp players don't seem to have problems. I stopped playing my pauper LD deck because it wasn't effective - *not* because people griped about it (which only happened occasionally).
Despite some severe doubts I have concerning WotC's apparent views on the MTGO community, I also made the jump with no regrets, selling my paper collection to, well Cape fear XD.
This was a good short read, though it was a little short... a little too short. Well it was really short.
I love playing competitive magic. The mythic situation makes me unable to field a competitive paper standard or paper extended deck, so I can no longer play those formats.
I can still play (and will play) online pauper, online prismatic singleton, online classic, paper legacy, and paper vintage (if it's a proxy event). I have an online 'new extended' deck, but I'm not sure how competitive in the format it is; I may try it. I do not have the mythics needed for online competitive standard at the moment.
My local store does not run any paper constructed events but standard/extended, and that means I quit! Knowing this, I'd much rather play online limited than paper limited because I'll actually use the online cards. In effect, my quitting paper constructed means I'll stop paper *almost entirely* with the exception of an occasional pre-release.
And having x4 of every card in the format I wanted to play was not a problem for me until July 2009 when 'you-can't-trade-for-me' single mythics starting hitting $50+ each in every new set (sometimes more than one single!). If they hadn't changed into 'new' extended I'd likely still be playing paper, since I had the nearly the entire 2004-2008 playable card pool x4 in paper. (Only missing 2 Dark Depths, 2 Fire-lit thickets, and one shockland.)
Hopefully this explains my position a little better.
In reference to the splosion man section, you can't respond to fling's additional cost. It's a cost, not an effect. Similar to harrow, you can't respond to harrow by destroying the sacrificial land.
I just sold my entire physical collection and don't regret a thing.
I kept some Pauper decks for the kids (in 'real life' lol...) - but I got a VERY fair price. If anyone is interested, the best strategy is to take your collection to a big protour/grand prix/release and have your rares all sorted in a big bulk pile. The best and fairest folks I've found were from Channelfireball. Anyone who's tried the multi-day long endeavor of trying to sort your physical cards into any sort of order, knows immediatly how superior a virtual collection is. That, and the lack of silverfish within my abode :)
At BEST I'm around 2 turns ahead, and that's only when I'm really hot. But if I'm in NY on a weekend I have to hit the Strand, then the farmer's market at Union Square, then half an hour of chess with my apple cider.
It’s incredibly unrealistic to expect casual players, who default to single game matches, to sit down at a table with their deck packed with anti-counter, anti-LD cards.
While I understand that 500 people PTQs will be the norm, making them sealed deck is disheartening. I understand why they do it. Wizards made 15,000 dollars off this event or took that many existing tickets off the market. It just stinks to spend 30 tickets to open a garbage pool, lose in the first round and be out of contention. Standard events would be better. I understand that you if play standard and get unlucky and get screwed or flooded that first round you still had bad luck.
I remember playing in the M11 championship and opening a miserable pool. I lost 2 rounds, went out to dinner with the wife and checked out the standing later in the night. I remember the player that had gone 10-0 in swiss had a ridiculous pool of foil inferno titan, frost titan, conudrum spinx and hoarding dragon. Just made me lose faith in giant sealed deck events when I opened a few dual lands in my rare slots.
I also thought it was interesting in that thread that players were talking about how in some areas PTQ's are only like 30 people and other areas can be hundreds.
Pack 3, Pick 6 I definitely would have hate drafted the Pyroclasm.
Drafting the Pyromancers was great because those would have been deadly against elves and druids if someone else had gotten them.
Definitely a killer deck.
While I agree that the tone was condescending his point is pretty dead on. For every strategy there are ways to counter it. So to say that such and such a strategy does not allow you to play is erroneous.
C'mon... no one has suggested that we don't "play to win", or play without a winner. What's being discussed is a style of Magic where the loser has fun as well. And BTW, folks play "non-competitive" sports all the time. Sometimes you just wanna go out to the golf course and whack some balls around, Sometimes you just go out in the back yard and play catch. And sometimes you just wanna shuffle up some (virtual) cardboard and see wtf happens.
While I sometimes wish that there were a few more comments, from the draft, I love comments like Pack 2, Pick 11 that remind players how to look forward and make draft decisions based on what is likely happening around the table.
Well there are blitz players there but mostly it is slow play. (Though my definiton of slow play doesn't mean glacial speed.) I tend to go out there in the summer time. Don't get me wrong about the hustlers. I don't blame them or think they are great but they did teach me when I was a kid so I have a deal of respect for them. Particularly Sweet Pea and his crew. The thing is, I won't ever play for money which for mr makes it not casual. So oddly once again our definitions of the word clash. :p
The “hustlers” have a bad reputation. The most I’ve ever lost on a game was $3, and in spite of my terrible play I win more than a third of my games. I don’t know about Thompkins Square Park, but I doubt I’d do well in a game with more than 10 min on the clock.
Hmmm Seshiro may have come up in the comments section but what I meant was I never featured a deck with him during one of my articles.
As for tribal wars eligibility, I didn't bother with that since I am still using avatars and a vanguard+tribal format doesn't exist. Some of my articles in the past have been for formats besides vanguard (I once wrote about Commander, for instance), but, when I do that, I don't leave "Fun with Vanguard" in the title. This was meant to be a vanguard article, just one based on tribes. Not the tribal format — sorry if I was misleading.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised that, despite the title, most of the article was about post-rotation Standard. =/
With Infect, I'm actually excited by the new Standard and wonder what kind of an impact the new set will have. I'm not a fan of artifacts and especially artifact blocks (Zzz), so I'm glad there is more to this set than just artifacts.
As a red mage, I'm really glad they are giving us new toys to work with. I think red can move in a variety of directions, as you said, big red and traditional sligh/RDW strategies. I think the fun will come from testing and brewing and trying what works best. I'm NOT going to cry over losing Soul Sisters... wow I hate that deck and on MTGO it's rampant.
Your article seems to be a tangle of different topics... kind of like a maze that you are guiding us through... so how about "Navigating the Maze of Ith"?
Anyway, I <3 the ORCs. Man, do they have a tough job sitting there answering the same mundane questions over and over and over and over and over and over . . . and over again. Seriously, they have always been kind and courteous to me and only once that I recall were they unable to answer a question.
So you can't win in Pauper? You can't play to win in Heirloom? In this case we're not talking about just playing to win, we're talking about a much narrower goal: build the perceived best deck in Standard at any given moment in order to win PTQs/PTs/GPs and if you can't, quit. Nothing you said addressed my proposition that a Spike can innovate. Why is it only Timmys or Johnnys can innovate? That's not part of their respective definitions: they can all innovate. My only point was that if you face a problem there are more solutions than just quitting.
I mean, I'm not trying to change anyone or dictate to anyone, but I do think it's a bit crazy to expect to own 4 x each rare and mythic in the format. Maybe I'm wrong and *I'm* crazy. LOL
I'm definitely not trying to insult Spikes, because I have a bit of Spike in me as well (like I won't enter a tournament unless I feel I have a good chance of winning). Actually, what most impelled me to reply to this article was that the author was playing crappy games he wasn't enjoying because he couldn't play Magic. I found it odd and puzzling that someone who loves Magic could ONLY love playing tier 1 level Standard and no other constructed (unless I misread, but that's the impression I got). =/ Seems peculiar, but to each his own.
thanks for correcting me regarding Vampiric Tutor. I only play casual classic, and none of my few tribal wars decks contain a Vampiric Tutor, so it never occurred to me. So the mistake is on the Wizards page!?
That page still has not been updated yet, and it still doesn't list Vampiric Tutor.
And regarding the B&R announcement: On Monday, it read,
"Vintage:
Frantic Search is no longer banned.
Gush is no longer banned."
Of course, it should say "no longer restricted" and has been corrected now. The Legacy & Vintage B&R list pages have been updated now as well.
Yeah, I'm too much a proud n00b to actually be bitter about the MTGO software/interface at this point. I know people who have been playing for years have a stack of grievances, but for me, I'm just so happy to be able to play the game online. MWS is really horrible in comparison in every which way (except cost perhaps ;)). Maybe after a couple of years I will begin to become bitter, but I hope not.
I read that article on Heirloom and it seems like an interesting format, but at least for the next month or two, I don't think I will dabble (finishing up my Master's final research . . . crunch time!). Also, even after that point, I noticed the tournaments begin at 2 a.m. my local time. Ouch. Is there a casual scene where people playtest this format throughout the week or is it basically once a week people dust off their decks and play? All in all, I'm sure I'll get around to trying it eventually. =) I'm a formataholic.
Really? You sure you haven't talked about Seshiro the Anointed? I distinctly remember a thread we discussed him in one of your articles, where I talked about how I used to him to fuel a rebel conspiracy (a few years back) though without the conspiracies since they are redundant with him out. Very toolboxy deck with all the rebel fetchers that are on line + various 4cmc or less enters the battlefield guys. (5cmc if you plan to use revivalist.)
The Mirror entity deck is an interesting spin on an old trick. Hybrid tribal is definitely an intriguing way to go though I notice none of your decks actually fit the tribal wars format, except elementals and that one I think is merely coincidence.
I think there is a huge difference between what your title implied to me and to what this article amounted to though I don't know why I would expect you to cross formats. The best elemental to fetch with harbinger by the way is Reveillark or Mulldrifter (imho) but that doesn't fit your mono red 5 power theme. Though I must say it seems a little like overkill. The bone harvest trick is cute.
for me paper Magic wasn`t an option since years, just because of lack of time and players around here! So mtgo provides all i missed in a short time and narrowed place, thats good! The software is not up to date, but ok beside some really bad mistakes! (Collection options, bot spamming....)
A tip for format testing: Try heirloom! A budget format promoted by xaoslegend in his article on this side:
Since you seem to be issue oriented perhaps your column should be Ith's Issues. Just a thought.
I think one of the main problems I have with commenting on the mothership forums is that everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon when there is a hot topic and no one really seems to listen to the 'Voice of Reason' that inevitably shows up. The trolls get the attention and really it seems very contentious. I have commented here and there on topics I've found randomly but generally speaking I don't have the patience to sift through the mundane threads for ones that interest me.
Well it is in print in a fairly large print run in two sets. It also does not kill regenerators. Which means it is strictly inferior to Wrath of God and Damnation.
Everything *you* have brought up is a gripe about your deck's plan being hindered through resource denial. I have tried pointing out examples of "casuals" (or at least denizens of the casual room) who are perfectly happy to play with and against resource denial.
Another, to rebut your claim above:
I have played many a WW and RDW player who was perfectly happy for me to be playing 3 and 4 mana LD spells while they play out their hand of 1 and two drops and smashed me. Likewise elves, affinity, and even most ramp players don't seem to have problems. I stopped playing my pauper LD deck because it wasn't effective - *not* because people griped about it (which only happened occasionally).
Despite some severe doubts I have concerning WotC's apparent views on the MTGO community, I also made the jump with no regrets, selling my paper collection to, well Cape fear XD.
This was a good short read, though it was a little short... a little too short. Well it was really short.
I love playing competitive magic. The mythic situation makes me unable to field a competitive paper standard or paper extended deck, so I can no longer play those formats.
I can still play (and will play) online pauper, online prismatic singleton, online classic, paper legacy, and paper vintage (if it's a proxy event). I have an online 'new extended' deck, but I'm not sure how competitive in the format it is; I may try it. I do not have the mythics needed for online competitive standard at the moment.
My local store does not run any paper constructed events but standard/extended, and that means I quit! Knowing this, I'd much rather play online limited than paper limited because I'll actually use the online cards. In effect, my quitting paper constructed means I'll stop paper *almost entirely* with the exception of an occasional pre-release.
And having x4 of every card in the format I wanted to play was not a problem for me until July 2009 when 'you-can't-trade-for-me' single mythics starting hitting $50+ each in every new set (sometimes more than one single!). If they hadn't changed into 'new' extended I'd likely still be playing paper, since I had the nearly the entire 2004-2008 playable card pool x4 in paper. (Only missing 2 Dark Depths, 2 Fire-lit thickets, and one shockland.)
Hopefully this explains my position a little better.
In reference to the splosion man section, you can't respond to fling's additional cost. It's a cost, not an effect. Similar to harrow, you can't respond to harrow by destroying the sacrificial land.
I just sold my entire physical collection and don't regret a thing.
I kept some Pauper decks for the kids (in 'real life' lol...) - but I got a VERY fair price. If anyone is interested, the best strategy is to take your collection to a big protour/grand prix/release and have your rares all sorted in a big bulk pile. The best and fairest folks I've found were from Channelfireball. Anyone who's tried the multi-day long endeavor of trying to sort your physical cards into any sort of order, knows immediatly how superior a virtual collection is. That, and the lack of silverfish within my abode :)
At BEST I'm around 2 turns ahead, and that's only when I'm really hot. But if I'm in NY on a weekend I have to hit the Strand, then the farmer's market at Union Square, then half an hour of chess with my apple cider.
It’s incredibly unrealistic to expect casual players, who default to single game matches, to sit down at a table with their deck packed with anti-counter, anti-LD cards.
While I understand that 500 people PTQs will be the norm, making them sealed deck is disheartening. I understand why they do it. Wizards made 15,000 dollars off this event or took that many existing tickets off the market. It just stinks to spend 30 tickets to open a garbage pool, lose in the first round and be out of contention. Standard events would be better. I understand that you if play standard and get unlucky and get screwed or flooded that first round you still had bad luck.
I remember playing in the M11 championship and opening a miserable pool. I lost 2 rounds, went out to dinner with the wife and checked out the standing later in the night. I remember the player that had gone 10-0 in swiss had a ridiculous pool of foil inferno titan, frost titan, conudrum spinx and hoarding dragon. Just made me lose faith in giant sealed deck events when I opened a few dual lands in my rare slots.
I also thought it was interesting in that thread that players were talking about how in some areas PTQ's are only like 30 people and other areas can be hundreds.
Pack 3, Pick 6 I definitely would have hate drafted the Pyroclasm.
Drafting the Pyromancers was great because those would have been deadly against elves and druids if someone else had gotten them.
Definitely a killer deck.
While I agree that the tone was condescending his point is pretty dead on. For every strategy there are ways to counter it. So to say that such and such a strategy does not allow you to play is erroneous.
C'mon... no one has suggested that we don't "play to win", or play without a winner. What's being discussed is a style of Magic where the loser has fun as well. And BTW, folks play "non-competitive" sports all the time. Sometimes you just wanna go out to the golf course and whack some balls around, Sometimes you just go out in the back yard and play catch. And sometimes you just wanna shuffle up some (virtual) cardboard and see wtf happens.
That's just fricking insulting dude. You don't think sanhedrin knows about Llanowar elves? You've missed the point entirely.
While I sometimes wish that there were a few more comments, from the draft, I love comments like Pack 2, Pick 11 that remind players how to look forward and make draft decisions based on what is likely happening around the table.
Well there are blitz players there but mostly it is slow play. (Though my definiton of slow play doesn't mean glacial speed.) I tend to go out there in the summer time. Don't get me wrong about the hustlers. I don't blame them or think they are great but they did teach me when I was a kid so I have a deal of respect for them. Particularly Sweet Pea and his crew. The thing is, I won't ever play for money which for mr makes it not casual. So oddly once again our definitions of the word clash. :p
The “hustlers” have a bad reputation. The most I’ve ever lost on a game was $3, and in spite of my terrible play I win more than a third of my games. I don’t know about Thompkins Square Park, but I doubt I’d do well in a game with more than 10 min on the clock.
Hmmm Seshiro may have come up in the comments section but what I meant was I never featured a deck with him during one of my articles.
As for tribal wars eligibility, I didn't bother with that since I am still using avatars and a vanguard+tribal format doesn't exist. Some of my articles in the past have been for formats besides vanguard (I once wrote about Commander, for instance), but, when I do that, I don't leave "Fun with Vanguard" in the title. This was meant to be a vanguard article, just one based on tribes. Not the tribal format — sorry if I was misleading.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised that, despite the title, most of the article was about post-rotation Standard. =/
With Infect, I'm actually excited by the new Standard and wonder what kind of an impact the new set will have. I'm not a fan of artifacts and especially artifact blocks (Zzz), so I'm glad there is more to this set than just artifacts.
As a red mage, I'm really glad they are giving us new toys to work with. I think red can move in a variety of directions, as you said, big red and traditional sligh/RDW strategies. I think the fun will come from testing and brewing and trying what works best. I'm NOT going to cry over losing Soul Sisters... wow I hate that deck and on MTGO it's rampant.
Your article seems to be a tangle of different topics... kind of like a maze that you are guiding us through... so how about "Navigating the Maze of Ith"?
Anyway, I <3 the ORCs. Man, do they have a tough job sitting there answering the same mundane questions over and over and over and over and over and over . . . and over again. Seriously, they have always been kind and courteous to me and only once that I recall were they unable to answer a question.
So you can't win in Pauper? You can't play to win in Heirloom? In this case we're not talking about just playing to win, we're talking about a much narrower goal: build the perceived best deck in Standard at any given moment in order to win PTQs/PTs/GPs and if you can't, quit. Nothing you said addressed my proposition that a Spike can innovate. Why is it only Timmys or Johnnys can innovate? That's not part of their respective definitions: they can all innovate. My only point was that if you face a problem there are more solutions than just quitting.
I mean, I'm not trying to change anyone or dictate to anyone, but I do think it's a bit crazy to expect to own 4 x each rare and mythic in the format. Maybe I'm wrong and *I'm* crazy. LOL
I'm definitely not trying to insult Spikes, because I have a bit of Spike in me as well (like I won't enter a tournament unless I feel I have a good chance of winning). Actually, what most impelled me to reply to this article was that the author was playing crappy games he wasn't enjoying because he couldn't play Magic. I found it odd and puzzling that someone who loves Magic could ONLY love playing tier 1 level Standard and no other constructed (unless I misread, but that's the impression I got). =/ Seems peculiar, but to each his own.
Hey guys,
thanks for correcting me regarding Vampiric Tutor. I only play casual classic, and none of my few tribal wars decks contain a Vampiric Tutor, so it never occurred to me. So the mistake is on the Wizards page!?
That page still has not been updated yet, and it still doesn't list Vampiric Tutor.
And regarding the B&R announcement: On Monday, it read,
"Vintage:
Frantic Search is no longer banned.
Gush is no longer banned."
Of course, it should say "no longer restricted" and has been corrected now. The Legacy & Vintage B&R list pages have been updated now as well.
--T.
Hey Nagarjuna,
Yeah, I'm too much a proud n00b to actually be bitter about the MTGO software/interface at this point. I know people who have been playing for years have a stack of grievances, but for me, I'm just so happy to be able to play the game online. MWS is really horrible in comparison in every which way (except cost perhaps ;)). Maybe after a couple of years I will begin to become bitter, but I hope not.
I read that article on Heirloom and it seems like an interesting format, but at least for the next month or two, I don't think I will dabble (finishing up my Master's final research . . . crunch time!). Also, even after that point, I noticed the tournaments begin at 2 a.m. my local time. Ouch. Is there a casual scene where people playtest this format throughout the week or is it basically once a week people dust off their decks and play? All in all, I'm sure I'll get around to trying it eventually. =) I'm a formataholic.
Really? You sure you haven't talked about Seshiro the Anointed? I distinctly remember a thread we discussed him in one of your articles, where I talked about how I used to him to fuel a rebel conspiracy (a few years back) though without the conspiracies since they are redundant with him out. Very toolboxy deck with all the rebel fetchers that are on line + various 4cmc or less enters the battlefield guys. (5cmc if you plan to use revivalist.)
The Mirror entity deck is an interesting spin on an old trick. Hybrid tribal is definitely an intriguing way to go though I notice none of your decks actually fit the tribal wars format, except elementals and that one I think is merely coincidence.
I think there is a huge difference between what your title implied to me and to what this article amounted to though I don't know why I would expect you to cross formats. The best elemental to fetch with harbinger by the way is Reveillark or Mulldrifter (imho) but that doesn't fit your mono red 5 power theme. Though I must say it seems a little like overkill. The bone harvest trick is cute.
Hi Mogg,
for me paper Magic wasn`t an option since years, just because of lack of time and players around here! So mtgo provides all i missed in a short time and narrowed place, thats good! The software is not up to date, but ok beside some really bad mistakes! (Collection options, bot spamming....)
A tip for format testing: Try heirloom! A budget format promoted by xaoslegend in his article on this side:
http://puremtgo.com/articles/heirloom-constructed
Best wishes and maybe for a heirloom on mtgo????+
Nagarjuna
Since you seem to be issue oriented perhaps your column should be Ith's Issues. Just a thought.
I think one of the main problems I have with commenting on the mothership forums is that everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon when there is a hot topic and no one really seems to listen to the 'Voice of Reason' that inevitably shows up. The trolls get the attention and really it seems very contentious. I have commented here and there on topics I've found randomly but generally speaking I don't have the patience to sift through the mundane threads for ones that interest me.
Well it is in print in a fairly large print run in two sets. It also does not kill regenerators. Which means it is strictly inferior to Wrath of God and Damnation.