My article this week was mainly to see what comments I received back based on past discussions in previous articles. It will not be like this in the future.
Yes you have called me out, I know exactly what you are saying its why I stopped playing in the events in the first place.
I will not be banning any tribes going forward as this is the wrong way to go. I also will not be moaning when any said tribes takes a place in the prizes in the future.
I feel that the event needs to have a look at its self and see what direction it should be going in which is what I've done with the article this week and from your responses. I wanted to do a little fisihing and see what results came back.
Looking forwards I'm going by the line of if its legal bring it no questions asked, if I see a card that really is too powerful it will be noted watched for a few weeks and then a decision made to ban it or not. AEther Vial is on that list and will likely be banned soon.
There are lots of casual themes and special events comming up, so there should be something for everyone to look forward to. I've planned to the end of January so far.
I have other ideas and things planned to make this event more interesting for all levels of players, including a reward scheme.
My main point of concentration at this point in time is building up the player base as I feel its very low and requires a lot of work to build it up, I've already put a lot of effort into this and will continue to do so. Once I'm happy with this then I will look at my other ideas for the future of the event.
I also want to include some more content in this article so if you have any ideas, let me know what you want to see/read about.
force of will is the glue that holds eternal together. the formats its legal in are so vast that you NEED to have it just so that the playing field does not devolve into who wins the roll wins the match.
That said fow is awful in casual decks. oh no whiffy called tribal decks casual, gasp. oh wait they are, i forgot, for a moment i thought it was a tournament full of adults, oh wait no thats not right either, tournament players never act this way.
Flip i like you and i read your articles for all the work you put into them, a feast for the eyes and such. but this is bad form.
a, you make a big deal out of a trivial issue.
b, your winner is blacklisted from your article because he dared to play to win?
c, you have the power as TO to do whatever you want as far as deck construction.
im going to call you out for saying that you lost out in playing him rd3, what did you lose? besides the event? he didnt play by your invisible deck building rules, so your the victim?
and whoever rd2 was you are a friggen shumck. oh noes, i have to play a deck that i cant steamroll? wah wah, its not fair i refuse to be an adult.
if nothing else the reaction that you and your particpants seem to have for this makes me more then anything else want to play the most degenerate broken thing i can find in your events. would i feel bad? hell no, i would play week after week with merfolk, or goblins or dredge(if it were legal) and week after week i would force you to look at the format. one of 3 things would happen.
1. im banned
2 the cards are banned
3 you ladies pull up your bootstraps and build decks that can beat the "broken" ones.
While not being a tribal player myself, I've always kept an eye out for infos about it, as I'm doing with other PREs formats, because I like the PRE concept.
I read most of the Drama and, frankly, while I can understand the players' point of view, I think it's mainly based on a big misconception here; correct me if I'm wrong but PRE just means Player Run Event and it has nothing to do with how "professional" the style of play is, so joining a PRE expecting semi-professional level of play or even budget decks is just plain wrong.
It's totally in your prerogatives to make, say, a legacy PRE, a standard PRE etc. etc.
That said, if you don't have players you can have the most beautiful of concepts but your PRE will still be a failure. So, in order to have a succesful PRE, you should analyze the average PRE players base and make your choices accordingly, IMHO.
So far I'm under the impression that the people who cares the most about PREs is the average non-pro (or semi-pro) budget/casual player that's looking for some fun with the cards he has (or unexpensive cards to buy) with the chance to even get something out of it, no matter how small the prize is, so allowing any other kind of player flashing his big money rares and decks that can stand head to head with the average sanctioned tournament deck will inevitably be a total turnoff for everyone else.
This is why I don't play tribal even though I like the concept; I'm a limited player, I don't have those flashy cards and I do not even want them after the tournament. I see a Force of Will as a source of tixes to play more limited tournaments, the only one I've seen in my MTGO life I promptly sold without thinking twice and played in 5 more queues over the week and had LOTS of fun regardless of my performance or the cards that were left in my collection. Back on topic, I don't play tribal because of that but I don't complain about it too, because if it's the format the "owner" want so be it, it's up to him, I don't expect him to do something so I could play my way or with the leftover cards that are in my collection.
If the rules are clear, it's up to the player decide wether he want to play or not rather than complaining about legal decks that are too strong for him.
Force of will is an absolutely crappy card in tribal. Anyone that doesn't own them and play them regularly perhaps can't get their head around it. Yes you can counter a spell when you're tapped out, but it causes you card disadvantage. Merfolk play it because it's their defense against combo decks, which are very rare in tribal. They'd quite honestly be better playing something else in that slot for this tournament. I've played a lot of decks with blue in this tournament, and I own a playset of FoW and I've never thought of including them. Not because I felt the power level was too high, but because the card just isn't good in tribal.
I was the one who suggested banning eather vial months ago. Vial isn't played in any casual type deck in existence. I can't think of a single non tournament deck that would be hindered by it's inclusion on the banned list.
That said, even without the force of will, daze, or eather vial, merfolk is still insanely powerful. Just take the 16 lords lists and then toss in some other merfolk for some fun and you're pretty much going to smash face. It's the same with slivers or goblins. Those tribes just have so much synergy, that they're nearly impossible to deal with.
It's obvious that these are the cards no one wants to see and these are the cards that invoke the hatred. Also, banning those cards will make it significantly more difficult to simply copy a Legacy deck and play it.
If you ban Merfolk, eventually someone is going to play Faeries with Force of Will and AEther Vial and then you'll have to ban faeries as well.
Merfolk are not nearly as powerful without those two cards, and there are fun builds of Merfolks that don't have to be killer cut-throat.
No Paul he leaves because it is time to leave the game behind and he has been thinking about doing for a while now.
I think Flip could have named the player but choose not to, i don't think the player would have minded either way. He did what he did was not happy with himself and has now moved on.
But hey Tribes would not be tribes without the Drama :)
I think it is a disgrace that this is still an issue. It shames me that a player was disgraced enough to not be mentioned by name for going 3-0. What he does after this is up to him but I think if he leaves MTGO it should not be because he has offended our lot. Who are we anyway??
A couple of points.
1. Anything goes room. Anything. If it is legal it can be played. I dislike losing to combo decks that win turn 1/2 but if someone brings one it is incumbent on me to stop them or to NOT put them down for it. Yes there is some unwritten rule about what lines may be crossed but imho invisible means it does not exist in this case. I can't see it written then you can't call me on it. (I am glad I didn't bring money.dec but if I did I would feel exactly this.)
2. It should not be that we are declaiming players for the decks they bring unless they are actually breaking the rules. Aether vial was on the watch list for bannings. Why not go ahead and ban it?? It is not like this is the first time (or even 3rd time) this has happened (anyone remember the clan incident?). I was mad then because like everyone else I was under the impression (false) that there was an understanding about power levels of decks. Goblin Lackey Is Blue brought dredge x3 before it was crippled slightly by banning BoB. Ban the vial and wait for the next broken deck to show up and spoil the fun.
Bring goblins, bring merfolk, bring dredge, bring whatever you feel like as long it is legal. It is a broken format and nothing we do will change this. Play because you enjoy it or play because you need 3 tix. Whatever, right? Honor has nothing to do with it. It is a game and if I get pissed off at someone for their deck well that is on me.
PS: I will add that AJ and I worked very hard to get RDW (aka Elemental Burn) banned because it was breaking the format more than usual but apparently it was "OK" while Legacy Fish isn't. There is something very wrong about that. I say we embrace the brokeness of the format and welcome the spoilers with both arms. The TO can reward creativity over winning if they want. (The tourney format is up to them after all...)
"They'd undoubted played dozens or hundreds of games against each other. Bluffing a stranger is difficult, but bluffing against a friend is even more challenging. "
I disagree with this statement. It is far easier if you are a good bluffer to do it with someone you know. You know what they will find credible and how far to push it. They of course may know your tells but that is something you can control with concerted effort. The more talented you are as a liar/bluffer the easier it will be even with someone who knows you very well. A stranger is an unknown entity and thus presents difficulties because they just don't know you well enough to be taken in. What Mike did Imho was play on Mark's familiarity with him. Not illegal but possibly a guilt inducing action in some.
P1P3 - Black is evidently wide open. Three solid black cards in Sign In Blood, Quag Sickness and Corrupt. None of these are necessarily first picks but the two drafters to your right are passing these knowing it is a big signal. I'd have picked up something black here. The only argument against this course of action is that they all require a significant commitment to black and you are still passing two solid black cards. Nevertheless I'd have been straight in there.
Banning tribes not the answer. they can be made without the power cards
The player in question was not new, he should have know better and i know he was not happy with himself after and it was totally out of Character for the said player to bring such a powerful deck.
I also know he won't be playing the tourny again as he is about the sell his collection and move away from Magic for good as he feels its time to move on.
And the thing is this lot of decks was nothing compared to the ones in the very last event imo(2 events later than this one). People are really starting to get their creative juices cooking on Heirloom.
So I'll just throw out some of my thoughts on the draft choices really quick, though I never really drafted m11 much I did draft m10 alot and have drafted a bunch in general over the years. Not saying Im the greatest drafter ever or anything though.
I'm just going to note my big disagreements.
P1p2, don't think I'm ready to move into blue for the adept, I'd just pick up the Squadron Hawk, if you get a couple more great, if you don't well 2 is enough and minus one adept isn't the end of the world.
p1p9, not a fan of the bear pick here, I'd go for the hornet sting probably, nothing else is very playable in the pack at all,
p1p10 I wouldnt play a 3rd cancel but might as well cut the color more and leyline isnt a signal
p2p2 I think I go for the doom blade splash over the Scroll Thief
Seems like you lost some sense of direction at times in this draft, taking too long to settle on colors to some extent,
I think you built the deck well,
great job on the win, a win is a win after all and more than likely a decent amount of skill went into it,
I'm definitely a big Boros guy myself, enemy colors have been my favorite 2 color combos in magic for a long time. Maybe it was from starting in Invasion block with busted enemy color cards like Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, Spiritmonger, Lightning Angel ect. My favorites are probably White/Black then White/Red then Black/Green then Green/Blue then Blue/Red.
I really like the pace of your articles and your use of different sized graphics, it really moves things along nicely and gives it a somewhat musical tempo.
These games tend to be pretty epic and you describe it well, gj on the win.
I totally agree with you here. Nothing keeps me away from a tournament more than knowing that if I try my best to win I'm going to be hated. Then this becomes a game of relativity. After everyone has been shamed away from various tribes more tribes slowly become the target of scorn and people use this "OMGYOURESUCHAJERKFORPLAYINGTHAT" reaction to flame anyone they lose to.
I really sympathize with all involved here though, each side has it's reasoning and everyone ends up feeling cheated and cheapened in some way. I just think it's easier if you just ban things and accept whatever is brought that is not banned wholeheartedly. This isn't tabletop MTG. You just can't conduct the subtle negotiation needed to manage things without strict bannings and allowings.
My two cents anyway,
Great article in any case of course, fantastic look and writing as always, thanks for doing such a fine job on these it really gives people like me something to shoot for.
you need to ban tribes
this is the umpteenth time someone has complained about people bringing real decks to these events. Either ban the tribes that the player base is against or dont say a word when someone brings a deck to an event. I can sympathize with you and your participants, but comon. its a tournament. the goal is to win.
u cant get mad at someone for bringing a deck that they want to win with to an event.
maybe the guy felt sheepish after he was belittled for bringing it. maybe he really didnt know the lvl of competition, maybe it wouldnt have happened if merfolk and goblins were banned.
Hi Whiffy
Please see my comments in the below post.
My article this week was mainly to see what comments I received back based on past discussions in previous articles. It will not be like this in the future.
Yes you have called me out, I know exactly what you are saying its why I stopped playing in the events in the first place.
Just wanted to say thanks for all the comments.
I will not be banning any tribes going forward as this is the wrong way to go. I also will not be moaning when any said tribes takes a place in the prizes in the future.
I feel that the event needs to have a look at its self and see what direction it should be going in which is what I've done with the article this week and from your responses. I wanted to do a little fisihing and see what results came back.
Looking forwards I'm going by the line of if its legal bring it no questions asked, if I see a card that really is too powerful it will be noted watched for a few weeks and then a decision made to ban it or not. AEther Vial is on that list and will likely be banned soon.
There are lots of casual themes and special events comming up, so there should be something for everyone to look forward to. I've planned to the end of January so far.
I have other ideas and things planned to make this event more interesting for all levels of players, including a reward scheme.
My main point of concentration at this point in time is building up the player base as I feel its very low and requires a lot of work to build it up, I've already put a lot of effort into this and will continue to do so. Once I'm happy with this then I will look at my other ideas for the future of the event.
I also want to include some more content in this article so if you have any ideas, let me know what you want to see/read about.
Thanks Flip
force of will is the glue that holds eternal together. the formats its legal in are so vast that you NEED to have it just so that the playing field does not devolve into who wins the roll wins the match.
That said fow is awful in casual decks. oh no whiffy called tribal decks casual, gasp. oh wait they are, i forgot, for a moment i thought it was a tournament full of adults, oh wait no thats not right either, tournament players never act this way.
Flip i like you and i read your articles for all the work you put into them, a feast for the eyes and such. but this is bad form.
a, you make a big deal out of a trivial issue.
b, your winner is blacklisted from your article because he dared to play to win?
c, you have the power as TO to do whatever you want as far as deck construction.
im going to call you out for saying that you lost out in playing him rd3, what did you lose? besides the event? he didnt play by your invisible deck building rules, so your the victim?
and whoever rd2 was you are a friggen shumck. oh noes, i have to play a deck that i cant steamroll? wah wah, its not fair i refuse to be an adult.
if nothing else the reaction that you and your particpants seem to have for this makes me more then anything else want to play the most degenerate broken thing i can find in your events. would i feel bad? hell no, i would play week after week with merfolk, or goblins or dredge(if it were legal) and week after week i would force you to look at the format. one of 3 things would happen.
1. im banned
2 the cards are banned
3 you ladies pull up your bootstraps and build decks that can beat the "broken" ones.
While not being a tribal player myself, I've always kept an eye out for infos about it, as I'm doing with other PREs formats, because I like the PRE concept.
I read most of the Drama and, frankly, while I can understand the players' point of view, I think it's mainly based on a big misconception here; correct me if I'm wrong but PRE just means Player Run Event and it has nothing to do with how "professional" the style of play is, so joining a PRE expecting semi-professional level of play or even budget decks is just plain wrong.
It's totally in your prerogatives to make, say, a legacy PRE, a standard PRE etc. etc.
That said, if you don't have players you can have the most beautiful of concepts but your PRE will still be a failure. So, in order to have a succesful PRE, you should analyze the average PRE players base and make your choices accordingly, IMHO.
So far I'm under the impression that the people who cares the most about PREs is the average non-pro (or semi-pro) budget/casual player that's looking for some fun with the cards he has (or unexpensive cards to buy) with the chance to even get something out of it, no matter how small the prize is, so allowing any other kind of player flashing his big money rares and decks that can stand head to head with the average sanctioned tournament deck will inevitably be a total turnoff for everyone else.
This is why I don't play tribal even though I like the concept; I'm a limited player, I don't have those flashy cards and I do not even want them after the tournament. I see a Force of Will as a source of tixes to play more limited tournaments, the only one I've seen in my MTGO life I promptly sold without thinking twice and played in 5 more queues over the week and had LOTS of fun regardless of my performance or the cards that were left in my collection. Back on topic, I don't play tribal because of that but I don't complain about it too, because if it's the format the "owner" want so be it, it's up to him, I don't expect him to do something so I could play my way or with the leftover cards that are in my collection.
If the rules are clear, it's up to the player decide wether he want to play or not rather than complaining about legal decks that are too strong for him.
Force of will is an absolutely crappy card in tribal. Anyone that doesn't own them and play them regularly perhaps can't get their head around it. Yes you can counter a spell when you're tapped out, but it causes you card disadvantage. Merfolk play it because it's their defense against combo decks, which are very rare in tribal. They'd quite honestly be better playing something else in that slot for this tournament. I've played a lot of decks with blue in this tournament, and I own a playset of FoW and I've never thought of including them. Not because I felt the power level was too high, but because the card just isn't good in tribal.
I was the one who suggested banning eather vial months ago. Vial isn't played in any casual type deck in existence. I can't think of a single non tournament deck that would be hindered by it's inclusion on the banned list.
That said, even without the force of will, daze, or eather vial, merfolk is still insanely powerful. Just take the 16 lords lists and then toss in some other merfolk for some fun and you're pretty much going to smash face. It's the same with slivers or goblins. Those tribes just have so much synergy, that they're nearly impossible to deal with.
Ban Force of Will and AEther Vial.
It's obvious that these are the cards no one wants to see and these are the cards that invoke the hatred. Also, banning those cards will make it significantly more difficult to simply copy a Legacy deck and play it.
If you ban Merfolk, eventually someone is going to play Faeries with Force of Will and AEther Vial and then you'll have to ban faeries as well.
Merfolk are not nearly as powerful without those two cards, and there are fun builds of Merfolks that don't have to be killer cut-throat.
No Paul he leaves because it is time to leave the game behind and he has been thinking about doing for a while now.
I think Flip could have named the player but choose not to, i don't think the player would have minded either way. He did what he did was not happy with himself and has now moved on.
But hey Tribes would not be tribes without the Drama :)
I think it is a disgrace that this is still an issue. It shames me that a player was disgraced enough to not be mentioned by name for going 3-0. What he does after this is up to him but I think if he leaves MTGO it should not be because he has offended our lot. Who are we anyway??
A couple of points.
1. Anything goes room. Anything. If it is legal it can be played. I dislike losing to combo decks that win turn 1/2 but if someone brings one it is incumbent on me to stop them or to NOT put them down for it. Yes there is some unwritten rule about what lines may be crossed but imho invisible means it does not exist in this case. I can't see it written then you can't call me on it. (I am glad I didn't bring money.dec but if I did I would feel exactly this.)
2. It should not be that we are declaiming players for the decks they bring unless they are actually breaking the rules. Aether vial was on the watch list for bannings. Why not go ahead and ban it?? It is not like this is the first time (or even 3rd time) this has happened (anyone remember the clan incident?). I was mad then because like everyone else I was under the impression (false) that there was an understanding about power levels of decks. Goblin Lackey Is Blue brought dredge x3 before it was crippled slightly by banning BoB. Ban the vial and wait for the next broken deck to show up and spoil the fun.
Bring goblins, bring merfolk, bring dredge, bring whatever you feel like as long it is legal. It is a broken format and nothing we do will change this. Play because you enjoy it or play because you need 3 tix. Whatever, right? Honor has nothing to do with it. It is a game and if I get pissed off at someone for their deck well that is on me.
PS: I will add that AJ and I worked very hard to get RDW (aka Elemental Burn) banned because it was breaking the format more than usual but apparently it was "OK" while Legacy Fish isn't. There is something very wrong about that. I say we embrace the brokeness of the format and welcome the spoilers with both arms. The TO can reward creativity over winning if they want. (The tourney format is up to them after all...)
"They'd undoubted played dozens or hundreds of games against each other. Bluffing a stranger is difficult, but bluffing against a friend is even more challenging. "
I disagree with this statement. It is far easier if you are a good bluffer to do it with someone you know. You know what they will find credible and how far to push it. They of course may know your tells but that is something you can control with concerted effort. The more talented you are as a liar/bluffer the easier it will be even with someone who knows you very well. A stranger is an unknown entity and thus presents difficulties because they just don't know you well enough to be taken in. What Mike did Imho was play on Mark's familiarity with him. Not illegal but possibly a guilt inducing action in some.
P1P3 - Black is evidently wide open. Three solid black cards in Sign In Blood, Quag Sickness and Corrupt. None of these are necessarily first picks but the two drafters to your right are passing these knowing it is a big signal. I'd have picked up something black here. The only argument against this course of action is that they all require a significant commitment to black and you are still passing two solid black cards. Nevertheless I'd have been straight in there.
High praise coming from you Paul, thanks.
X-
Excellent article (though I skipped the vids at the end as they aren't my thing.)
Banning tribes not the answer. they can be made without the power cards
The player in question was not new, he should have know better and i know he was not happy with himself after and it was totally out of Character for the said player to bring such a powerful deck.
I also know he won't be playing the tourny again as he is about the sell his collection and move away from Magic for good as he feels its time to move on.
And the thing is this lot of decks was nothing compared to the ones in the very last event imo(2 events later than this one). People are really starting to get their creative juices cooking on Heirloom.
X-
Man, sounds like this was a fun event to take part in. Loving the innovative lists people are coming up with.
Hey Fragoel2,
So I'll just throw out some of my thoughts on the draft choices really quick, though I never really drafted m11 much I did draft m10 alot and have drafted a bunch in general over the years. Not saying Im the greatest drafter ever or anything though.
I'm just going to note my big disagreements.
P1p2, don't think I'm ready to move into blue for the adept, I'd just pick up the Squadron Hawk, if you get a couple more great, if you don't well 2 is enough and minus one adept isn't the end of the world.
p1p9, not a fan of the bear pick here, I'd go for the hornet sting probably, nothing else is very playable in the pack at all,
p1p10 I wouldnt play a 3rd cancel but might as well cut the color more and leyline isnt a signal
p2p2 I think I go for the doom blade splash over the Scroll Thief
Seems like you lost some sense of direction at times in this draft, taking too long to settle on colors to some extent,
I think you built the deck well,
great job on the win, a win is a win after all and more than likely a decent amount of skill went into it,
X-
Hey Leviathan,
I'm definitely a big Boros guy myself, enemy colors have been my favorite 2 color combos in magic for a long time. Maybe it was from starting in Invasion block with busted enemy color cards like Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, Spiritmonger, Lightning Angel ect. My favorites are probably White/Black then White/Red then Black/Green then Green/Blue then Blue/Red.
I really like the pace of your articles and your use of different sized graphics, it really moves things along nicely and gives it a somewhat musical tempo.
These games tend to be pretty epic and you describe it well, gj on the win.
X-
Hey Whiffy,
I totally agree with you here. Nothing keeps me away from a tournament more than knowing that if I try my best to win I'm going to be hated. Then this becomes a game of relativity. After everyone has been shamed away from various tribes more tribes slowly become the target of scorn and people use this "OMGYOURESUCHAJERKFORPLAYINGTHAT" reaction to flame anyone they lose to.
I really sympathize with all involved here though, each side has it's reasoning and everyone ends up feeling cheated and cheapened in some way. I just think it's easier if you just ban things and accept whatever is brought that is not banned wholeheartedly. This isn't tabletop MTG. You just can't conduct the subtle negotiation needed to manage things without strict bannings and allowings.
My two cents anyway,
Great article in any case of course, fantastic look and writing as always, thanks for doing such a fine job on these it really gives people like me something to shoot for.
Mike-
Drbenwayy,
lol 4 Koth, 4 Jace, that's... yeah. I really hope this doesn't become one of the better decks in standard for various reasons.
Anyway good article. It's always fun to see what's goin on in standard even if I don't play it.
X-
you need to ban tribes
this is the umpteenth time someone has complained about people bringing real decks to these events. Either ban the tribes that the player base is against or dont say a word when someone brings a deck to an event. I can sympathize with you and your participants, but comon. its a tournament. the goal is to win.
u cant get mad at someone for bringing a deck that they want to win with to an event.
maybe the guy felt sheepish after he was belittled for bringing it. maybe he really didnt know the lvl of competition, maybe it wouldnt have happened if merfolk and goblins were banned.
Tested and approved. The ooze makes a copy of itself while the Propagator is in the graveyard.
LE
For some reason none of the pics are working in this article, the scars links don't work yet or something I guess.
I would have picked Kemba as the best white art. Just my humble opinion though.
Are you sure the Ooze doesn't start making Myr Propagator tokens at that point, rather than Necrotic Ooze tokens?