I know you put in a lot of work on this, and I thank you kindly.
In the past you've calculated the E.V. of packs which helped guide me in determining where to put in my grinding effort. Could you bring this back. With so many formats right now and the drop in standard prices, it's not clear where to go.
Isn't the entire point of the article that your opinion is the predominant one but there are ways to circumvent that? In other words, there are ways to ensure you have a good game within the boundaries of the social contract online. Just giving up and saying, "oh well, online is cut throat, end of story" is the exact opposite the author hopes you will conclude. In fact, online play can be molded to be the format you see in paper, but the main conduit for that is simply communication: either buddy lists or clans.
Personally, to use an analogy, Commander is like a dance. If one person is breakdancing, another is waltzing, another is line dancing and still another is dancing the forbidden dance of Peru, it's gonna be awkward. It's not that one is wrong and the other is right, it's about finding like-minded people to dance with.
There are constant complaints and requests for a roadmap on the official wotc boards. I don't think we'll ever get one. Partially because they seem to make things up as they go along. They plan and design the expansion sets 2 years in advance, but everything else, especially online stuff seems to be done on the fly. Also, as they like to tell us in the dailymtg articles, they are in the business of selling excitement, so they keep their cards close to their chest. Would it actually help the eternal community to know whether or not duals would be perpetually in print? Probably yes, but they seem to play it overly safe on everything. But I wish they would be a little more open about their plans, especially when it comes to eternal.
As far as that speculating article on SCG, there was also a thread about that on the official wotc boards that pointed out that the guy didn't take into account the spread between the buy and sell price, so he'd be lucky to make like 0.5% profit if that. I don't have SCG Premium, so I'm not claiming to know all the details. Just passing along that this hoarding scheme doesn't seem to be a big deal.
It also reads to me like any modern-legal card is allowed, current product or not. I think the sentence that says "but is has to come from a pack sold in the mtgo store" means that you can't get a promo or FtV version.
Not that it matters to me. Modern drools. Classic rules.
Find someone to enforce this agreement, that a majority of players haven't even heard of, online, and players will abide by it. As it stand now, EDH online is a format with winners and losers, and will be continued to be treated as such by people who prefer one of these end results to the other.
Would love to see a text decklist list in the article, including the source you got it from (player name, what they played it in, date if you have it, their record in the event it was played in if you have it).
I know you did show the cards in the first vid link, but having it as a text version is great for quick reference.
Otherwise, very nice article. Really enjoyed your basic strategy review, discussion of the cards relative to your experience with the deck, and your play and commentary in the matches you recorded against various deck types.
I'm quite certain Tarmogoyf would be allowed. If the meaning was in-print, it wouldn't make sense to use the words "Modern" and "sold" and not "currently", "available", "in-print", or "selling". It's the Modern format so they'll give any Modern card, excluding sexy promo versions.
I personally am more psyched over a full-art bolt, to be honest, since participation prizes are more my speed than invitation-based top 8s.
This deck is surprisingly resilient. I have played against it a couple of times with RDW (not gobbos). You did get kind of lucky against the goblin player, because this deck is kind of a dog to red. Not surprised about the other MUs though...
I don't have Hammie's database. I am building one of my own - Heath is supplying a weekly spreadsheet with prices. Over time, I will build up a database, but my history just goes back to May.
I think the wishes can be from any set ever sold through the online store, as long as the card is Modern legal. That's how I read it as well, otherwise why the clarification about modern legal and no special from the vault sets etc. Not much of a "wish" if it's just current product. I see WotC using this as a way to increase Modern supply as well, ala the ME events, etc.
I definitely have my fingers crossed that the Ravnica block dual lands replace the current ones in Magic 2013. I was hoping they would already replace them this year if they were considering making Modern a legal format so soon. Makes me think that they pulled that decision out of their asses.
Speaking of speculation and what it does to prices, I've been wondering if you, Pete, have any of the data or a possible way of obtaining the data that Eric used to use in his State of the Program that had the prices of singles over time. I would like to see when and how much certain Modern cards jumped up in price over the past months. I'm sure I had a very surprised look on my face when I noticed that Vesuva was over $15 when I looked it up the other day. Now it's at $22! Wasn't it something like under $3 earlier this year? Makes me think there are some speculators out there who are making bank right now.
As GrandAdmiral mentioned regarding reprints, this new format could very well be the end of legacy. The way the game is growing, the reserved list doesn't make sense as it did when they first put it into action. It seems that the MTGO world reflects the paper world as to what formats are played. If people don't play paper legacy because of the increasingly absurd prices of the cards needed to play it, they won't play it online either.
I doubt that Nix gets played over Chalice! It costs you less to cast than Nix and is proactive. You will often be able to play it for more than zero to good effect against other decks (cast it for one against combo decks and they lose some of their rituals and Ponder / Preordain), whereas Nix is quite narrow. Granted, Nix may sometimes save you against Hive Mind (when they only have one Pact) whereas Chalice will probably only disable their Pact of Negation used in "defense mode".
Even if he thinks the ban list is great (a valid opinion shared by many) his lumping of the cards really does demonstrate a lack of understanding of the format.
Also, LostAlone, you are quite incorrect in stating that no "real Modern" has been played - even if you want to ignore the immense number of matches being tested in MTGO since the announcement of this very ban list (you shouldn't) AND you also want to ignore the immense data from Overextended (you shouldn't, it is pretty accurate in giving you a pretty good idea of things), there HAS been at least one paper event giving out 2000 USD worth of prizes - is that not "real Modern" to you?
It is impossible to know what the future holds, but it is not impossible to make a good attempt at predicting it given the wealth of data available. Gavin made a very good article on another site - he missed some things (namely Restore Balance and Gifts Ungiven as very relevant cards in the format) but it was an excellent attempt at predicting the format.
I think Andrea benefits more from genuine criticism (I don't think I was rude) than from hollow pats on the back. Maybe next week he will do more research and produce a stellar article!
While it does say it needs to have come from a pack, it doesn't say has to be from the packs that are on sale now. Which means, yes you can wish for a foil Tarmgoyf, as it did originally come from a released magic online pack. They are just saying you cannot wish for the from the vaults Isochron Scepter, or a Tezzeret from chandra vs tezzeret, etc. Or alternate art stuff from Thursday night magic, again stating promo cards, not necessarily just the sets in print,
BTW, does anyone else think like i do magic 2013 mythics, dark confidant, and tarmogoyf, and the shock lands as the rares, just my 2 cents on that subject,
I have to say you did have some good luck on your side but awesome playing and great vids. I was surprised how well the illusions worked out but i def see how important the spellskites are. again well played and thanks for the article.
At first I thought the rise of speculating on Magic Online was kind of fun. It was a way a smart player with a certain budget could get more out of that budget. Ted's article is starting to take the fun out of the speculation sails.
I'm a former Vintage player. I loved the format and was sad to see it slowly die. Now I'm at a point where I'm converting to playing online and thinking about jumping into Legacy. What holds me back is that I don't want to jump into a format that withers because the cost of entry drives away new players. It's starting to look like speculators are pushing the cost along with supply issues.
This leads to my biggest complaint. We have no idea what Wizards plans to do with the supply of older cards. This isn't a normal economics situation where increased demand would lead to increased supply. Wizards controls ALL of the supply. They also know where the supply is distributed. We can only speculate on what they will do in the future and thus speculate on the prices. Couldn't they at least give us a rough idea of their plans? Dual Lands will be reprinted every X Master's Edition. Same for tournament staples from pre-Modern sets. I'm not asking for exact details or even an exact plan, just some idea of what the future will bring. Love it or hate it, the paper Magic reserved list does that. There is no equivalent online.
Did you notice that for the Modern Release Championship that the top 8 will be able to request "Wish" cards, which is any Modern Legal card that is available from packs being sold in the online store? This is the first time I recall seeing something like this as a reward from MTGO.
Nice article on the problems of EDH in the online world. The online environment seems to work very well for competetive play (drafting or constructed) but not so well for casual play. Your suggestions on how to minimize the problems are appreciated, and are probably just about the only reasonable steps that can be taken without revising the program.
It would be nice if WOTC would take some steps to make the online world a little less casual-unfriendly. I think the main area that needs improvement is player-categorization, both based on feedback from other players (maybe a bit like ebay?) and a players categorization of themself. This type of information helps make the online world a bit more like the real world, where people can steer themselves away from jerks and form casual groups of like-minded players. The "casual v. tournament" distinction is a very crude effort in this general area. Make casual MTGO a bit more like a dating service, perhaps :)
In the meantime, I think protocol_7 emphasizes an important point. Namely, EDH is specifically intended to be a more casual, interactive game format. While in a duel setting, the presumption is that you are playing to win, the presumption in EDH is that you are playing to play. That being the case, the burden should be on players who are using a cutthrout EDH deck to announce this is the type of game they intend to play, as the presumption is that more casual decks will be used. Other players can then accept or reject this. Doing otherwise is a violation of the spirit of EDH. If a player does not do this, he should be ejected by agreement of the other players, as described. This is not a perfect solution, as plenty of griefers feel they've already succeeded if they get to the point of forcing an ejection, but it seems the best we can do with the environment that exists.
I know you put in a lot of work on this, and I thank you kindly.
In the past you've calculated the E.V. of packs which helped guide me in determining where to put in my grinding effort. Could you bring this back. With so many formats right now and the drop in standard prices, it's not clear where to go.
It seems like I forgot to put the CubeDraft decklist in! Here we go:
Isn't the entire point of the article that your opinion is the predominant one but there are ways to circumvent that? In other words, there are ways to ensure you have a good game within the boundaries of the social contract online. Just giving up and saying, "oh well, online is cut throat, end of story" is the exact opposite the author hopes you will conclude. In fact, online play can be molded to be the format you see in paper, but the main conduit for that is simply communication: either buddy lists or clans.
Personally, to use an analogy, Commander is like a dance. If one person is breakdancing, another is waltzing, another is line dancing and still another is dancing the forbidden dance of Peru, it's gonna be awkward. It's not that one is wrong and the other is right, it's about finding like-minded people to dance with.
There are constant complaints and requests for a roadmap on the official wotc boards. I don't think we'll ever get one. Partially because they seem to make things up as they go along. They plan and design the expansion sets 2 years in advance, but everything else, especially online stuff seems to be done on the fly. Also, as they like to tell us in the dailymtg articles, they are in the business of selling excitement, so they keep their cards close to their chest. Would it actually help the eternal community to know whether or not duals would be perpetually in print? Probably yes, but they seem to play it overly safe on everything. But I wish they would be a little more open about their plans, especially when it comes to eternal.
As far as that speculating article on SCG, there was also a thread about that on the official wotc boards that pointed out that the guy didn't take into account the spread between the buy and sell price, so he'd be lucky to make like 0.5% profit if that. I don't have SCG Premium, so I'm not claiming to know all the details. Just passing along that this hoarding scheme doesn't seem to be a big deal.
It also reads to me like any modern-legal card is allowed, current product or not. I think the sentence that says "but is has to come from a pack sold in the mtgo store" means that you can't get a promo or FtV version.
Not that it matters to me. Modern drools. Classic rules.
-1 x10
Find someone to enforce this agreement, that a majority of players haven't even heard of, online, and players will abide by it. As it stand now, EDH online is a format with winners and losers, and will be continued to be treated as such by people who prefer one of these end results to the other.
Would love to see a text decklist list in the article, including the source you got it from (player name, what they played it in, date if you have it, their record in the event it was played in if you have it).
I know you did show the cards in the first vid link, but having it as a text version is great for quick reference.
Otherwise, very nice article. Really enjoyed your basic strategy review, discussion of the cards relative to your experience with the deck, and your play and commentary in the matches you recorded against various deck types.
Thanks :)
that's cool. it's a good feature so i'm glad you're working to bring it back.
I'm quite certain Tarmogoyf would be allowed. If the meaning was in-print, it wouldn't make sense to use the words "Modern" and "sold" and not "currently", "available", "in-print", or "selling". It's the Modern format so they'll give any Modern card, excluding sexy promo versions.
I personally am more psyched over a full-art bolt, to be honest, since participation prizes are more my speed than invitation-based top 8s.
This deck is surprisingly resilient. I have played against it a couple of times with RDW (not gobbos). You did get kind of lucky against the goblin player, because this deck is kind of a dog to red. Not surprised about the other MUs though...
Good work. As always.
I don't have Hammie's database. I am building one of my own - Heath is supplying a weekly spreadsheet with prices. Over time, I will build up a database, but my history just goes back to May.
I think the wishes can be from any set ever sold through the online store, as long as the card is Modern legal. That's how I read it as well, otherwise why the clarification about modern legal and no special from the vault sets etc. Not much of a "wish" if it's just current product. I see WotC using this as a way to increase Modern supply as well, ala the ME events, etc.
Just my opinion, guess we'll see
Pfft my choice is Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero.
That's a bummer.
I definitely have my fingers crossed that the Ravnica block dual lands replace the current ones in Magic 2013. I was hoping they would already replace them this year if they were considering making Modern a legal format so soon. Makes me think that they pulled that decision out of their asses.
from packs being sold online. I think that means M12, Scars and Zendikar blocks. Not Tarmogoyf. Sorry.
"You can argue over the best creature in Magic, but whatever you choose (I choose Dark Confidant), it is in the format."
What if I argue for Hermit Druid, Goblin Lackey, or Goblin Welder? :P
Just messin' with you Pete, nice work as always!
Speaking of speculation and what it does to prices, I've been wondering if you, Pete, have any of the data or a possible way of obtaining the data that Eric used to use in his State of the Program that had the prices of singles over time. I would like to see when and how much certain Modern cards jumped up in price over the past months. I'm sure I had a very surprised look on my face when I noticed that Vesuva was over $15 when I looked it up the other day. Now it's at $22! Wasn't it something like under $3 earlier this year? Makes me think there are some speculators out there who are making bank right now.
As GrandAdmiral mentioned regarding reprints, this new format could very well be the end of legacy. The way the game is growing, the reserved list doesn't make sense as it did when they first put it into action. It seems that the MTGO world reflects the paper world as to what formats are played. If people don't play paper legacy because of the increasingly absurd prices of the cards needed to play it, they won't play it online either.
I doubt that Nix gets played over Chalice! It costs you less to cast than Nix and is proactive. You will often be able to play it for more than zero to good effect against other decks (cast it for one against combo decks and they lose some of their rituals and Ponder / Preordain), whereas Nix is quite narrow. Granted, Nix may sometimes save you against Hive Mind (when they only have one Pact) whereas Chalice will probably only disable their Pact of Negation used in "defense mode".
Ivo.
Even if he thinks the ban list is great (a valid opinion shared by many) his lumping of the cards really does demonstrate a lack of understanding of the format.
Also, LostAlone, you are quite incorrect in stating that no "real Modern" has been played - even if you want to ignore the immense number of matches being tested in MTGO since the announcement of this very ban list (you shouldn't) AND you also want to ignore the immense data from Overextended (you shouldn't, it is pretty accurate in giving you a pretty good idea of things), there HAS been at least one paper event giving out 2000 USD worth of prizes - is that not "real Modern" to you?
It is impossible to know what the future holds, but it is not impossible to make a good attempt at predicting it given the wealth of data available. Gavin made a very good article on another site - he missed some things (namely Restore Balance and Gifts Ungiven as very relevant cards in the format) but it was an excellent attempt at predicting the format.
I think Andrea benefits more from genuine criticism (I don't think I was rude) than from hollow pats on the back. Maybe next week he will do more research and produce a stellar article!
Ivo.
While it does say it needs to have come from a pack, it doesn't say has to be from the packs that are on sale now. Which means, yes you can wish for a foil Tarmgoyf, as it did originally come from a released magic online pack. They are just saying you cannot wish for the from the vaults Isochron Scepter, or a Tezzeret from chandra vs tezzeret, etc. Or alternate art stuff from Thursday night magic, again stating promo cards, not necessarily just the sets in print,
BTW, does anyone else think like i do magic 2013 mythics, dark confidant, and tarmogoyf, and the shock lands as the rares, just my 2 cents on that subject,
I have to say you did have some good luck on your side but awesome playing and great vids. I was surprised how well the illusions worked out but i def see how important the spellskites are. again well played and thanks for the article.
At first I thought the rise of speculating on Magic Online was kind of fun. It was a way a smart player with a certain budget could get more out of that budget. Ted's article is starting to take the fun out of the speculation sails.
I'm a former Vintage player. I loved the format and was sad to see it slowly die. Now I'm at a point where I'm converting to playing online and thinking about jumping into Legacy. What holds me back is that I don't want to jump into a format that withers because the cost of entry drives away new players. It's starting to look like speculators are pushing the cost along with supply issues.
This leads to my biggest complaint. We have no idea what Wizards plans to do with the supply of older cards. This isn't a normal economics situation where increased demand would lead to increased supply. Wizards controls ALL of the supply. They also know where the supply is distributed. We can only speculate on what they will do in the future and thus speculate on the prices. Couldn't they at least give us a rough idea of their plans? Dual Lands will be reprinted every X Master's Edition. Same for tournament staples from pre-Modern sets. I'm not asking for exact details or even an exact plan, just some idea of what the future will bring. Love it or hate it, the paper Magic reserved list does that. There is no equivalent online.
Did you notice that for the Modern Release Championship that the top 8 will be able to request "Wish" cards, which is any Modern Legal card that is available from packs being sold in the online store? This is the first time I recall seeing something like this as a reward from MTGO.
Nice article on the problems of EDH in the online world. The online environment seems to work very well for competetive play (drafting or constructed) but not so well for casual play. Your suggestions on how to minimize the problems are appreciated, and are probably just about the only reasonable steps that can be taken without revising the program.
It would be nice if WOTC would take some steps to make the online world a little less casual-unfriendly. I think the main area that needs improvement is player-categorization, both based on feedback from other players (maybe a bit like ebay?) and a players categorization of themself. This type of information helps make the online world a bit more like the real world, where people can steer themselves away from jerks and form casual groups of like-minded players. The "casual v. tournament" distinction is a very crude effort in this general area. Make casual MTGO a bit more like a dating service, perhaps :)
In the meantime, I think protocol_7 emphasizes an important point. Namely, EDH is specifically intended to be a more casual, interactive game format. While in a duel setting, the presumption is that you are playing to win, the presumption in EDH is that you are playing to play. That being the case, the burden should be on players who are using a cutthrout EDH deck to announce this is the type of game they intend to play, as the presumption is that more casual decks will be used. Other players can then accept or reject this. Doing otherwise is a violation of the spirit of EDH. If a player does not do this, he should be ejected by agreement of the other players, as described. This is not a perfect solution, as plenty of griefers feel they've already succeeded if they get to the point of forcing an ejection, but it seems the best we can do with the environment that exists.