This was a hard article for me to write. Turns out it's hard to turn abstract thoughts into an article. That said, I'm committed to improving and do appreciate the feedback.
As for the Staff, I know what you're saying is true, but I can't help but think that there are corner cases where I could still lose. I am likely over-thinking it, but that's the way I am.
I haven't yet tested the new variant other than some rough goldfishing, and to be honest, don't like the Bazaars very much. I find they're turning off the Metalworkers and not digging deep enough.
Again, I appreciate the feedback. Hopefully, the next one writes a bit easier and more fluidly.
Green can look attractive, but I don't think it has what it takes in the commons/uncommons ... you'll be mulching and travelling your way to get that early 6-8 land, while you've been dropped to 12 life by a diregraf ghoul (god I love those guys!), you finally cast a warewolf who is inneffective until you forgo a turn of casting, or a big monster drop, both of which die quite easily. The graveyard wurm comes out early and dies just as quickly because he's still only a 2/2 ... there's good stuff in green but unless you get a the awesome rare drops it's only good for a splash sometimes in limited.
And yes - 2 average, very happy with it! I only play Swiss, never got past a first round of 4-3-2-2
I think Humans are very cool, but without the right cards the G/W Humans seem the weakest to me. W and any other colour Humans are really cool... it's a meta rather than main game plan, but things like the Cannibals, Skirsdag's, Rage Thrower guy - so many are Humans but not intuitively so. I played W/B Humans which I really liked but they didn't have any late game bombs, the next draft I played against a very similar deck and he had the same problem I did - awesome early-mid game but no big win conditions.
I remember reading a State of the Program a while back which mentioned that Natural Order was selling for 15 tickets, but that it was still available in the precon. This was about a year ago I think, when people were using it to sac a Llanowar Elf for Progenitus. I figured it was a good pick up and bought one before they were pulled from the shelf.
The funny thing is that I still read that column all the time, and just never noticed that it was on that top 10 most expensive cards list at the end of the articles. I still think that price is nutty.
Yeah, attacking into your Massacre Wurm while you had Nim Deathmantle out and I had a whole mess of 1/1's and one large dude was a dumb idea. And you thought you had lost that game :)
Geo, the problem lies in the anonymous nature of playing online. If you had a regular EDH playgroup in paper, it would be easy to figure out the appropriate power level of your decks. People that played annoying stuff that the group doesn't like would get frozen out and have to adjust since you would see them every time you played and they would want to be included.
However, when playing online typically you play different people each game. That means that you could be playing against a guy who uses one of the Commander precons, another guy playing with draft leftovers, and another guy with a tuned Azami combo deck. Each of these people have different ideas about what is acceptable in Commander, and what isn't. One of the best ways to avoid this is to do as Paul suggested and just play with people you know online. This way the guess factor is effectively decreased about what is ok, but the ability to find a game when you want is decreased as well.
Like I said, everyone has a different idea about what is ok, and what isn't. Many people see that certain cards aren't banned, and figure that it's fine to use them. And many of those types of cards have a purpose, even if it isn't fun to play against them. On the other end of the spectrum are those people that lot read Sheldon Menery over at Starcity, the godfather of the format, and see that he never plays combo (ok, Survival into a big Living Death is about as combo as he gets) or mass land destruction and practically never plays counterspells. The guy lives in the red zone, so his readers think that's what is acceptable. However, the first group sees a wide open card pool and tons of ways to break it, and enjoy doing so. There's a guy over at mtgoacademy who writes a column called "Who's Your Daddy" that does a good job of pushing things to the limit. If you watch his videos, you will also see the insane amount of hate he often gets, but he keeps running out combo and land destruction anyways because he likes it.
The thing is that you have to realize you are going to run into all types. So with my decks I figure I am going to try and win through combat damage, and I need some answers, but that I'm just going to roll over and die most of the time to locks and mass land destruction. I'm fine with that and realize that I can't win many times against combo without a concerted effort between all opponents because that's just how I play. If someone wants to run a deck that wins on turn 5 while other people are setting up their mana (Azami with Mind Over Matter looking for Laboratory Maniac), well, so be it. I just move on to the next game.
With all that said, I prefer to win, and want to give those combo guys a run for their money. That's why you see me include dual lands, Primeval Titan, and Natural Order in my decks. Even with my cheap 20 ticket decks I will still run powerful stuff to help me toward my end goal. You just have to run what you feel comfortable with and realize that you aren't always going to be pleased with what your opponents play, and they aren't always going to like what you play. Once you're happy with that, things should get easier.
1v1 is a whole different matter. Currently, it's pretty laid back there, with the occasional guy busting out their Azami deck that used to get them gang blocked in the multi player room. But I have a feeling it is going to get much more cutthroat soon.
Finally, I've also noticed that I have a better experience when the group is chatting. Going through the motions with a deck with no interaction feels weird and sterile. If you can insert a joke or two and get people involved, a lot of that tension is diffused. Most of the time, at least.
I dunno if this helps, but it's how I approach things. Good luck, and don't give up on the format!
I always enjoy reading your articles, mainly because I love playing Commander over anything else, but also because you have differing opinions on what cards to use, and there's nothing greater in my book than finding a new favorite card.
Speaking of which, I was trying to figure out what Precon you got Natural Order from, because according to MTGO there's only the Visions one available. I definitely wouldn't spend 70 bucks on a single sorcery, no matter how good it would be. On that topic, besides the obvious Green Sun's Zenith, another replacement that's a good deal cheaper (but not 10c cheap) is Survival Of The Fittest. Sure, it doesn't go on the battlefield straight, but it is repeatable. I bought it right after it got banned in some format, and it's an auto-include in any Green deck I play. Best $10 bucks I've spent card wise... Well, besides the typical speculation purchases that make profit, of course :)
Friendly does not really convey what you want though. There are some very friendly players(self-described) that play turn 4-5 combo decks regularly and without qualms.
Also Genesis Wave imho is fine. (Same with any X spell, Exsanguinate included.) The problem are the enablers that give you infinite or near infinite mana/tokens etc. 23 is actually pretty tame from the things I've seen, though I am sure it was enough to ensure a win for them.
@Geo... I feel your pain. I've been drifting away from commander because I see the same spikey decks over and over again. It seems like every other game ends with a turn 5 Genesis Wave for 23 or some other nonsense. When I do play I always advertise as a "Friendly Game". Obviously the fellow you played wouldn't fit that description.
grrr....my edh decks are slowly becoming similar...
I have WG Rhys tokens, BG Nath Tokens, and now after seeing this deck their is no way i can't try it out so now I guess i have R/G tokens. Which is cool i love tokens, haha. Now i just needto make either Krag, Momir, or Edric tokens haha
Geo there are multiple approaches to take here. 1) Play only with friends 2) play the harshest decks you can build 3) play tuned down decks and take the lumps when you get them 4) some combination of the above.
Also there are several Player Run Events sponsored by MTGO Traders which might be interesting to you. In particular there is the EDH Chaos tourney every Sunday that starts at 3:00pm EST (sign up is at 2:30pm). This tourney in particular is a mix of Spikes, Timmies and Johnnies with no one group consistently prevailing as the building challenge changes weekly. (See the forums on the mothership to find out what each week's challenge is.)
That was definitely a weird game with Jhoira acting as a kind of spoiler and things going awry for all. :) I'd forgotten all about that game. I preferred the one where you gave me the game by attacking me. :p
So, I played paper way back in the days of "The Dark", took a break for quite some time, dabbled here and there, and have finally come back full circle.
I have really enjoyed the card availability of MTGO, and the endless stream of games to play. Commander has been the style I enjoy the most. But, I've been chewed out in matches for playing too much counter stuff, rearranged my deck to remover counter stuff, only to be shut down by counter stuff. I have read EDH mantra, and it's supposed to be a fun time had by all, yet it seems most of the online community are all about smashing your face in, run decks with no theme what so ever, and pretty much all run the same cards...i.e. "Duplicant" to name just one.
So, not so sound like a child who wants to take his cards and go home...I have fun with most of my games, but should it be geared more toward a competitive approach? Is there a group of players that meet at a certain time or night that play for fun, and the coolness of the game? Like the guy that played "mind slave", or winter orb...Isn't this douchebaggery? I don't know, help me out. I recently played a guy with at least 10 planeswalkers, a deck full of counters, and ways to get his planeswalkers out...When I politely told him he wouldn't survive in a multi game, he got snooty and said multi games were for mouth breathing idiots. Not to go into detail about my repsonse, needless to say I just conceded and blocked him.
I'm very new to commander, but it seems like the format isn't one for all and all for fun, but lets get this game over before we even get down to 80 cards.
To be honest I was dissapointed with this article even though I love classic - It felt rushed and lagging in the content department. Sorry I really dont understand this paragraph's logic -
"Metalworker and Staff of Domination is not a "Win Now" combo. Yes, I can draw my entire deck and make infinite mana (if I have 3 artifacts in hand), but what's my win condition? If I don't start the turn with a Goblin Welder, I can't weld Battlespheres, Precursor Golems, or Triskelions and the former two still don't win until next turn. I feel like I need to find a "Win this turn" condition for the Toolbox deck and to do it using as few cards as possible. "
You draw as many cards as you like and generate the infinite mana to cast them (yes lots of clicking). You might not actually win this turn but in all reality the game is over - how do you expect your opponent to come back when you have buried them in sphere, golems, etc not to mention gained enough life from the staff to lock out the game. You make it impossible for your opponent to win so rubbish like lightning greaves is pointless.
Sorry to sound harsh I have enjoyed your other articles with content at lot more than this.
The decklist at the end with little analysis is also disappointing - how is the testing, what matchups are good how can the deck evolve etc.
-Hammer
Hi Guys this is the Time Stamp for this episode hope you enjoy!
Intro
0:44 Launch of Magic-Eternal.com/forums and associated wiki
4:00 Daily Event I
4:30 Snapcaster Mage Discussion
8:16 Daily Event II
9:55 Cat Weasel's Sideboard
13:30 Shop Resurgence
15:00 Divining Witch
16:35 Cards which got better in current Meta
22:15 Whiffy's Season III Deck list
35:05 Hammer's Potential S3 Deck
40:07 Zach's Potential S3 Deck
49:13 Liliana of the Veil
53:20 S3 League Top8 Predictions
56:20 Wild seculation on Power 9 release
1:02:36 Outro
END
-Hammer
This was a hard article for me to write. Turns out it's hard to turn abstract thoughts into an article. That said, I'm committed to improving and do appreciate the feedback.
As for the Staff, I know what you're saying is true, but I can't help but think that there are corner cases where I could still lose. I am likely over-thinking it, but that's the way I am.
I haven't yet tested the new variant other than some rough goldfishing, and to be honest, don't like the Bazaars very much. I find they're turning off the Metalworkers and not digging deep enough.
Again, I appreciate the feedback. Hopefully, the next one writes a bit easier and more fluidly.
Green can look attractive, but I don't think it has what it takes in the commons/uncommons ... you'll be mulching and travelling your way to get that early 6-8 land, while you've been dropped to 12 life by a diregraf ghoul (god I love those guys!), you finally cast a warewolf who is inneffective until you forgo a turn of casting, or a big monster drop, both of which die quite easily. The graveyard wurm comes out early and dies just as quickly because he's still only a 2/2 ... there's good stuff in green but unless you get a the awesome rare drops it's only good for a splash sometimes in limited.
And yes - 2 average, very happy with it! I only play Swiss, never got past a first round of 4-3-2-2
I think Humans are very cool, but without the right cards the G/W Humans seem the weakest to me. W and any other colour Humans are really cool... it's a meta rather than main game plan, but things like the Cannibals, Skirsdag's, Rage Thrower guy - so many are Humans but not intuitively so. I played W/B Humans which I really liked but they didn't have any late game bombs, the next draft I played against a very similar deck and he had the same problem I did - awesome early-mid game but no big win conditions.
Good stuff, and welcome back! The kid is cute, but wait until she turns 2...
I remember reading a State of the Program a while back which mentioned that Natural Order was selling for 15 tickets, but that it was still available in the precon. This was about a year ago I think, when people were using it to sac a Llanowar Elf for Progenitus. I figured it was a good pick up and bought one before they were pulled from the shelf.
The funny thing is that I still read that column all the time, and just never noticed that it was on that top 10 most expensive cards list at the end of the articles. I still think that price is nutty.
Yeah, attacking into your Massacre Wurm while you had Nim Deathmantle out and I had a whole mess of 1/1's and one large dude was a dumb idea. And you thought you had lost that game :)
Geo, the problem lies in the anonymous nature of playing online. If you had a regular EDH playgroup in paper, it would be easy to figure out the appropriate power level of your decks. People that played annoying stuff that the group doesn't like would get frozen out and have to adjust since you would see them every time you played and they would want to be included.
However, when playing online typically you play different people each game. That means that you could be playing against a guy who uses one of the Commander precons, another guy playing with draft leftovers, and another guy with a tuned Azami combo deck. Each of these people have different ideas about what is acceptable in Commander, and what isn't. One of the best ways to avoid this is to do as Paul suggested and just play with people you know online. This way the guess factor is effectively decreased about what is ok, but the ability to find a game when you want is decreased as well.
Like I said, everyone has a different idea about what is ok, and what isn't. Many people see that certain cards aren't banned, and figure that it's fine to use them. And many of those types of cards have a purpose, even if it isn't fun to play against them. On the other end of the spectrum are those people that lot read Sheldon Menery over at Starcity, the godfather of the format, and see that he never plays combo (ok, Survival into a big Living Death is about as combo as he gets) or mass land destruction and practically never plays counterspells. The guy lives in the red zone, so his readers think that's what is acceptable. However, the first group sees a wide open card pool and tons of ways to break it, and enjoy doing so. There's a guy over at mtgoacademy who writes a column called "Who's Your Daddy" that does a good job of pushing things to the limit. If you watch his videos, you will also see the insane amount of hate he often gets, but he keeps running out combo and land destruction anyways because he likes it.
The thing is that you have to realize you are going to run into all types. So with my decks I figure I am going to try and win through combat damage, and I need some answers, but that I'm just going to roll over and die most of the time to locks and mass land destruction. I'm fine with that and realize that I can't win many times against combo without a concerted effort between all opponents because that's just how I play. If someone wants to run a deck that wins on turn 5 while other people are setting up their mana (Azami with Mind Over Matter looking for Laboratory Maniac), well, so be it. I just move on to the next game.
With all that said, I prefer to win, and want to give those combo guys a run for their money. That's why you see me include dual lands, Primeval Titan, and Natural Order in my decks. Even with my cheap 20 ticket decks I will still run powerful stuff to help me toward my end goal. You just have to run what you feel comfortable with and realize that you aren't always going to be pleased with what your opponents play, and they aren't always going to like what you play. Once you're happy with that, things should get easier.
1v1 is a whole different matter. Currently, it's pretty laid back there, with the occasional guy busting out their Azami deck that used to get them gang blocked in the multi player room. But I have a feeling it is going to get much more cutthroat soon.
Finally, I've also noticed that I have a better experience when the group is chatting. Going through the motions with a deck with no interaction feels weird and sterile. If you can insert a joke or two and get people involved, a lot of that tension is diffused. Most of the time, at least.
I dunno if this helps, but it's how I approach things. Good luck, and don't give up on the format!
He means an ACTUAL precon back when Visions was being sold online.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/productarticle.aspx?x=mtg_tcg_visions_t...
I always enjoy reading your articles, mainly because I love playing Commander over anything else, but also because you have differing opinions on what cards to use, and there's nothing greater in my book than finding a new favorite card.
Speaking of which, I was trying to figure out what Precon you got Natural Order from, because according to MTGO there's only the Visions one available. I definitely wouldn't spend 70 bucks on a single sorcery, no matter how good it would be. On that topic, besides the obvious Green Sun's Zenith, another replacement that's a good deal cheaper (but not 10c cheap) is Survival Of The Fittest. Sure, it doesn't go on the battlefield straight, but it is repeatable. I bought it right after it got banned in some format, and it's an auto-include in any Green deck I play. Best $10 bucks I've spent card wise... Well, besides the typical speculation purchases that make profit, of course :)
Thanks! Truth be told it was Wild Mongrel, which is better for nostalgia's sake anyway.
Next Wednesday as I understand it, and thanks for the comment :)
Nice one. The baby is adorable, and I appreciate block strategy.
I hope block dailies start soon, I have so many ideas to test.
Você fala Inglês muito bem e parece ser talentoso com limitada. Muito Obrigada. Mais vídeos, por favor.
Your English is probably better than my Portuguese...
Friendly does not really convey what you want though. There are some very friendly players(self-described) that play turn 4-5 combo decks regularly and without qualms.
Also Genesis Wave imho is fine. (Same with any X spell, Exsanguinate included.) The problem are the enablers that give you infinite or near infinite mana/tokens etc. 23 is actually pretty tame from the things I've seen, though I am sure it was enough to ensure a win for them.
@Geo... I feel your pain. I've been drifting away from commander because I see the same spikey decks over and over again. It seems like every other game ends with a turn 5 Genesis Wave for 23 or some other nonsense. When I do play I always advertise as a "Friendly Game". Obviously the fellow you played wouldn't fit that description.
grrr....my edh decks are slowly becoming similar...
I have WG Rhys tokens, BG Nath Tokens, and now after seeing this deck their is no way i can't try it out so now I guess i have R/G tokens. Which is cool i love tokens, haha. Now i just needto make either Krag, Momir, or Edric tokens haha
Hey Wes wb and cute baby pic. :D She's casting Tarmogoyf right?
Geo there are multiple approaches to take here. 1) Play only with friends 2) play the harshest decks you can build 3) play tuned down decks and take the lumps when you get them 4) some combination of the above.
Also there are several Player Run Events sponsored by MTGO Traders which might be interesting to you. In particular there is the EDH Chaos tourney every Sunday that starts at 3:00pm EST (sign up is at 2:30pm). This tourney in particular is a mix of Spikes, Timmies and Johnnies with no one group consistently prevailing as the building challenge changes weekly. (See the forums on the mothership to find out what each week's challenge is.)
That was definitely a weird game with Jhoira acting as a kind of spoiler and things going awry for all. :) I'd forgotten all about that game. I preferred the one where you gave me the game by attacking me. :p
So, I played paper way back in the days of "The Dark", took a break for quite some time, dabbled here and there, and have finally come back full circle.
I have really enjoyed the card availability of MTGO, and the endless stream of games to play. Commander has been the style I enjoy the most. But, I've been chewed out in matches for playing too much counter stuff, rearranged my deck to remover counter stuff, only to be shut down by counter stuff. I have read EDH mantra, and it's supposed to be a fun time had by all, yet it seems most of the online community are all about smashing your face in, run decks with no theme what so ever, and pretty much all run the same cards...i.e. "Duplicant" to name just one.
So, not so sound like a child who wants to take his cards and go home...I have fun with most of my games, but should it be geared more toward a competitive approach? Is there a group of players that meet at a certain time or night that play for fun, and the coolness of the game? Like the guy that played "mind slave", or winter orb...Isn't this douchebaggery? I don't know, help me out. I recently played a guy with at least 10 planeswalkers, a deck full of counters, and ways to get his planeswalkers out...When I politely told him he wouldn't survive in a multi game, he got snooty and said multi games were for mouth breathing idiots. Not to go into detail about my repsonse, needless to say I just conceded and blocked him.
I'm very new to commander, but it seems like the format isn't one for all and all for fun, but lets get this game over before we even get down to 80 cards.
To be honest I was dissapointed with this article even though I love classic - It felt rushed and lagging in the content department. Sorry I really dont understand this paragraph's logic -
"Metalworker and Staff of Domination is not a "Win Now" combo. Yes, I can draw my entire deck and make infinite mana (if I have 3 artifacts in hand), but what's my win condition? If I don't start the turn with a Goblin Welder, I can't weld Battlespheres, Precursor Golems, or Triskelions and the former two still don't win until next turn. I feel like I need to find a "Win this turn" condition for the Toolbox deck and to do it using as few cards as possible. "
You draw as many cards as you like and generate the infinite mana to cast them (yes lots of clicking). You might not actually win this turn but in all reality the game is over - how do you expect your opponent to come back when you have buried them in sphere, golems, etc not to mention gained enough life from the staff to lock out the game. You make it impossible for your opponent to win so rubbish like lightning greaves is pointless.
Sorry to sound harsh I have enjoyed your other articles with content at lot more than this.
The decklist at the end with little analysis is also disappointing - how is the testing, what matchups are good how can the deck evolve etc.
-Hammer
When you plant a Hate Seed, a Vengevine grows...
Very nice effort.
It's gotten so bad that people in my local shop will make snide comments whenever I sit down to draft with them. It's not too bad :D
Hi Guys this is the Time Stamp for this episode hope you enjoy!
Intro
0:44 Launch of Magic-Eternal.com/forums and associated wiki
4:00 Daily Event I
4:30 Snapcaster Mage Discussion
8:16 Daily Event II
9:55 Cat Weasel's Sideboard
13:30 Shop Resurgence
15:00 Divining Witch
16:35 Cards which got better in current Meta
22:15 Whiffy's Season III Deck list
35:05 Hammer's Potential S3 Deck
40:07 Zach's Potential S3 Deck
49:13 Liliana of the Veil
53:20 S3 League Top8 Predictions
56:20 Wild seculation on Power 9 release
1:02:36 Outro
END
-Hammer
Funny you say that, I wasn't attracted to green at all, and it looked like decent cards were going late.
I have a propensity to pick blue so I hope to try out white blue humans.
Thanks for the comments and grats on the 2per average :). Most 4322 guys would love to avg that!
Zach