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I was eagerly awaiting to see your thoughts on the BnR changes.. I think the unbanning of regrowth is kind of like what you were reasoning.. it doesn't really do anything seriously broken (that I know of!)so why ban it?
and thats a cool note on saving grasp I never considered it as that kind of answer
>Moat is good against ground swarms, less so against combo or decks with reach.
Sure
>punishing grove or seismic loam beat moat
Sure, there are decks that can beat Moat
>Merfolk have a flying lord (Coralhelm commander)
And Moat decks have spot removal and bunch of blockers to deal with a lone flyer. Against resolved Moat, having 4 fliers in a deck doesn't really increases your chances by much.
>elves can still elfball
Subtype of elf decks can elfball, yeah, but they can't attack for the win, unless they manage to remove Moat or have a win condition that don't include attacking (Tendrils, Hurricane + Staff etc.)
>Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes more tribes viable.
This could also read: Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes less tribes and archetypes viable.
I think if Moat would be so prevalent to actually singlehandedly slow the format down, the result would be a less diverse meta (right now, aggro, control and combo decks are all completely viable). But I don't think it would ever be played so much to considerably change things. It would just be a random game loss for a lot of decks when they happen to stumble upon it once in a while.
Moat is good against ground swarms, less so against combo or decks with reach. punishing grove or seismic loam beat moat, Merfolk have a flying lord (Coralhelm commander), elves can still elfball. Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes more tribes viable.
Totally forgot about Teferi's Moat. It sees almost no play (although I remember a game where Kumagoro locked my Assassins out of the win with it :/).
I'm not an expert in comparing cards strength, but I guess there is an important difference between 4 and 5 cc, especially when the card is designed to stop attackers. 1cc difference at such casting costs usually results in 1, 2 and sometimes even more turns where your opponent can attack you, which is a big deal for aggro decks.
I am not 100% convicted that Moat should remain banned (especially when a lot of people who are quite experienced in Magic disagree with me). Sure, if I could choose, I definitely wouldn't unban it, because my (to some extent uneducated) opinion is that Moat is too powerful for Tribal (I suspect that it would cause more whining than Grove/Fire combo, if it saw a lot of play). It is an enchantment that most decks need to remove if they want to win. And they need to remove it *fast* if they are playing against control.
If Moat would be the same non-factor as TM is right now, I don't care whether it's banned/unbanned. But I suspect much more players would play Moat than they do TM right now. If that was the case, then this would be a solid testament to the difference in power level.
(BTW, I never said Goblins need help. I said this is one of the many decks that folds to resolved Moat (unless they have enough burn.) This is more of a question whether control needs additional help, and I don't think it does - I think control has sufficient tools already and it should be favoured to win against aggro if built correctly).
Awesome man well i will do some play testing against infect and delver blue and let you know how those match ups play out and what its lacking or does good.
Fair enough point with Assassins, and Zombies...both decks seem cold to enchantments in general and are not so easy to make great to begin with (though I think they both are decent vs the meta without moats and the like.) The thing is why aren't you asking for Teferi's Moat to be banned then? It costs only one more and is one sided instead of being at least ostensibly symmetrical. You can run it in a ground pounder tribe like soldiers or fish and be happy to lock out your opponents for the most part from attacking.
As far as Goblins needing help? I see that as pretty laughable. As you point out too Elementals has its fair share of answers. Engineered Explosives might be a little slow for dealing with moat but thats the price you pay for getting rid of it.
I think moat is no more heinous than any of the cards being suggested/recommended for unbanning. And far less than some. Emrakul for example. If Emrakul is in, Moat should be too. Oh look no annihilator because your cheatface eldrazi can't attack. Oh except for All is Dust but hey...
had a fantastic time at the event though I expected there to be a middle ground for deck power... there was the typical classic lists and then a couple people running goofy things like Pauper just to support the event.. guess I shoulda known better! lol
IMO Wandering Wolf should have made this list. It's a solid two-drop that can't be blocked by a lot of other two drops and belongs in any green aggro deck. With the plethora of pump spells in std right now you could run him all way in for the win.
I feel I owe an apology to Tom in the FB comments there because I keep making that typo >< I'm just going to start not using the word at all :D
@eldarock: I'm working on something cool regarding matchups, but I will say this IzzetPost does actually consider DelverBlue a favorable matchup and I think DimirPost could as well.. as for the rest well I really don't know because they don't get played enough to get a feel for that lol
as an FYI, and I'm going to include this note in my next article, but I'm going to start classifying random 8post decks as JunkPost in the competitive review
I am not saying there are no possible answers to Moat - of course there are.
What decks does Moat destroy? Decks with majority of ground guy and no/little enchantment removal. Goblins, Merfolk, Assassins, Kithkin, Soldiers, Knights, Zombies, Wizards + bunch of other. I count as "being destroyed" if you can't attack with your guys (and have no alternative win condition) even if you have 2 or 3 outs in your decks.
Suggestion that Rdw should pack Engineered Explosives is just laughable. If it came to the point that aggro decks needed to start using EE, Oblivion Ring or ND to deal with Moat, this would be the best argument for keeping it banned.
Enchantments are hard to deal with, since most of the decks have little or no enchantment removal (which is usually a correct strategy unless there is a card in a meta that completely dominates the game if left unchecked (like Moat)). Thats the fact regardless of what your idea of a deck "that is worth its salt" is. All my decks that I've played recently basically fold to Moat with the exception of Elementals, and I rarely go less than x-1 with them.
Destroys, really...Such invective! Slows, halts, stymies perhaps. But any deck worth its salt should be able to play against moat and not auto lose. Oblivion Stone, Disk, Explosives, etc are all viable answers for red deck wins and elves have incredible amounts of answers. What decks does moat destroy without question? I agree it makes life a little harder for the easy button decks but imho that's a good thing.
The decks that are midranged that lose to Moat probably lose most of their games to begin with. And control has ways to deal with unhappy face enchantments and often the primary way is to just fly over them.
Hmm, I don't think unbanning Moat is a good idea. This card singlehandedly destroys bunch of decks upon resolving (not just aggro ones) and those that can deal with it are usually drawing to a few outs. I don't even think format needs balancing - there are enough tools to make slower decks (like Angels) completely viable. Just slam in 4x Swords, 4x Path, 4x Wrath, 4x another spot removal, and you're probably favorite to win against aggro. No need to completely shut them (and bunch of other decks) off with a single card.
I'm still new to this tournament and I don't play much Legacy, so I wasn't expecting to make much of a splash with the deck. My 1-2 record was about as good as I had hoped for. But it definitely was a fun deck to play and with a little tweaking I might bring it back at some point (although I do have a few other Kobold builds that could see play before this one makes a return).
was just wondering if these post decks can compete with the delver and infect decks that fill the meta right now. i love to play in tourny room with my own version of post but wasnt sure if they can stand up to some of the delver decks i have played in the practice room and in the tourny room. Again great article keepem coming.
Great indeed. Some people talk/write greatness, others do it. Thanks again.
On my deck list:
I was intending to run RDW but I was having such a miserable time of it testing it that Keya took pity on me and lent me most of Affinity Shops. I'd never played Shops or any of the top tier decks before but it was fun and not terribly stressful. (My usual complaint of high level play.) In fact the players were great, and my opponents had some interesting decks: one with Pauper Storm and another with Rebels control.
The overall winner Shaddai had a really nasty Flash Hulk variant that won game 1 vs me on turn 2. Beautiful combo. I love lark and protean hulk so hard to feel bad about that. Game 2 he just crushed my dreams with a FOW vs my turn 1 lodestone golem (Workshop + lotus petal) and back to back strip/waste/waste for my only lands of the game.
Awesome event and extremely well run. I had a riot and hope to see some of the masses that came out filter into Classic. Hope to see you join some Classic DE's.
So great to see the community band together for such a great cause. Let's do it again next year Blippy :)
Awesome event and extremely well run. I had a riot and hope to see some of the masses that came out filter into Classic. Hope to see you join some Classic DE's.
So great to see the community band together for such a great cause. Let's do it again next year Blippy :)
TheCardNexus credits have been added for March, Poltergeist, and thewoof2.
Other T8 players can contact TheCardNexusHelp account online. If there is no response there, contact me online, and I'll give you an email address.
I still have prizes in hand for energizer and Kuriboh. Please contact me in client.
---
I'm old, and senile, I should have remembered this from the When Worlds Kaleid days. Hindsight is always 20/20. I used to post this at every WWK event:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/27012913/When_Worlds_K...
How do I collect my prizes?
If you currently have an active entry at TheCardNexus, credits will be added to your account at TheCardNexus within 1 week of posting decklist.
If you've never traded with TheCardNexus before, or your current credit with them is 0, a credit entry has to made into the bot. This credit entry cannot be done manually, it has to be done via a trade. You can either A) buy something from the bot and "leave change" (easiest), or B) open a trade and sell a piece of junk (basic land, trash common, etc.) to create the credit entry. If you do not have a piece of junk to sell, you can obtain a free piece of junk from TheCardNexusHelp account, or from me. Then let me or the sponsor know, and you prize credits will be added.
I was eagerly awaiting to see your thoughts on the BnR changes.. I think the unbanning of regrowth is kind of like what you were reasoning.. it doesn't really do anything seriously broken (that I know of!)so why ban it?
and thats a cool note on saving grasp I never considered it as that kind of answer
>Moat is good against ground swarms, less so against combo or decks with reach.
Sure
>punishing grove or seismic loam beat moat
Sure, there are decks that can beat Moat
>Merfolk have a flying lord (Coralhelm commander)
And Moat decks have spot removal and bunch of blockers to deal with a lone flyer. Against resolved Moat, having 4 fliers in a deck doesn't really increases your chances by much.
>elves can still elfball
Subtype of elf decks can elfball, yeah, but they can't attack for the win, unless they manage to remove Moat or have a win condition that don't include attacking (Tendrils, Hurricane + Staff etc.)
>Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes more tribes viable.
This could also read: Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes less tribes and archetypes viable.
I think if Moat would be so prevalent to actually singlehandedly slow the format down, the result would be a less diverse meta (right now, aggro, control and combo decks are all completely viable). But I don't think it would ever be played so much to considerably change things. It would just be a random game loss for a lot of decks when they happen to stumble upon it once in a while.
Moat is good against ground swarms, less so against combo or decks with reach. punishing grove or seismic loam beat moat, Merfolk have a flying lord (Coralhelm commander), elves can still elfball. Moat encourages having a plan B, which slows the format and thus makes more tribes viable.
Emrakul flies.
Totally forgot about Teferi's Moat. It sees almost no play (although I remember a game where Kumagoro locked my Assassins out of the win with it :/).
I'm not an expert in comparing cards strength, but I guess there is an important difference between 4 and 5 cc, especially when the card is designed to stop attackers. 1cc difference at such casting costs usually results in 1, 2 and sometimes even more turns where your opponent can attack you, which is a big deal for aggro decks.
I am not 100% convicted that Moat should remain banned (especially when a lot of people who are quite experienced in Magic disagree with me). Sure, if I could choose, I definitely wouldn't unban it, because my (to some extent uneducated) opinion is that Moat is too powerful for Tribal (I suspect that it would cause more whining than Grove/Fire combo, if it saw a lot of play). It is an enchantment that most decks need to remove if they want to win. And they need to remove it *fast* if they are playing against control.
If Moat would be the same non-factor as TM is right now, I don't care whether it's banned/unbanned. But I suspect much more players would play Moat than they do TM right now. If that was the case, then this would be a solid testament to the difference in power level.
(BTW, I never said Goblins need help. I said this is one of the many decks that folds to resolved Moat (unless they have enough burn.) This is more of a question whether control needs additional help, and I don't think it does - I think control has sufficient tools already and it should be favoured to win against aggro if built correctly).
You could. That would be good in certain decks. It's honestly superfluous in my particular ones.
Great time!! Thanks for hosting Blippy.
Awesome man well i will do some play testing against infect and delver blue and let you know how those match ups play out and what its lacking or does good.
Fair enough point with Assassins, and Zombies...both decks seem cold to enchantments in general and are not so easy to make great to begin with (though I think they both are decent vs the meta without moats and the like.) The thing is why aren't you asking for Teferi's Moat to be banned then? It costs only one more and is one sided instead of being at least ostensibly symmetrical. You can run it in a ground pounder tribe like soldiers or fish and be happy to lock out your opponents for the most part from attacking.
As far as Goblins needing help? I see that as pretty laughable. As you point out too Elementals has its fair share of answers. Engineered Explosives might be a little slow for dealing with moat but thats the price you pay for getting rid of it.
I think moat is no more heinous than any of the cards being suggested/recommended for unbanning. And far less than some. Emrakul for example. If Emrakul is in, Moat should be too. Oh look no annihilator because your cheatface eldrazi can't attack. Oh except for All is Dust but hey...
had a fantastic time at the event though I expected there to be a middle ground for deck power... there was the typical classic lists and then a couple people running goofy things like Pauper just to support the event.. guess I shoulda known better! lol
IMO Wandering Wolf should have made this list. It's a solid two-drop that can't be blocked by a lot of other two drops and belongs in any green aggro deck. With the plethora of pump spells in std right now you could run him all way in for the win.
I feel I owe an apology to Tom in the FB comments there because I keep making that typo >< I'm just going to start not using the word at all :D
@eldarock: I'm working on something cool regarding matchups, but I will say this IzzetPost does actually consider DelverBlue a favorable matchup and I think DimirPost could as well.. as for the rest well I really don't know because they don't get played enough to get a feel for that lol
as an FYI, and I'm going to include this note in my next article, but I'm going to start classifying random 8post decks as JunkPost in the competitive review
I am not saying there are no possible answers to Moat - of course there are.
What decks does Moat destroy? Decks with majority of ground guy and no/little enchantment removal. Goblins, Merfolk, Assassins, Kithkin, Soldiers, Knights, Zombies, Wizards + bunch of other. I count as "being destroyed" if you can't attack with your guys (and have no alternative win condition) even if you have 2 or 3 outs in your decks.
Suggestion that Rdw should pack Engineered Explosives is just laughable. If it came to the point that aggro decks needed to start using EE, Oblivion Ring or ND to deal with Moat, this would be the best argument for keeping it banned.
Enchantments are hard to deal with, since most of the decks have little or no enchantment removal (which is usually a correct strategy unless there is a card in a meta that completely dominates the game if left unchecked (like Moat)). Thats the fact regardless of what your idea of a deck "that is worth its salt" is. All my decks that I've played recently basically fold to Moat with the exception of Elementals, and I rarely go less than x-1 with them.
Destroys, really...Such invective! Slows, halts, stymies perhaps. But any deck worth its salt should be able to play against moat and not auto lose. Oblivion Stone, Disk, Explosives, etc are all viable answers for red deck wins and elves have incredible amounts of answers. What decks does moat destroy without question? I agree it makes life a little harder for the easy button decks but imho that's a good thing.
The decks that are midranged that lose to Moat probably lose most of their games to begin with. And control has ways to deal with unhappy face enchantments and often the primary way is to just fly over them.
Hmm, I don't think unbanning Moat is a good idea. This card singlehandedly destroys bunch of decks upon resolving (not just aggro ones) and those that can deal with it are usually drawing to a few outs. I don't even think format needs balancing - there are enough tools to make slower decks (like Angels) completely viable. Just slam in 4x Swords, 4x Path, 4x Wrath, 4x another spot removal, and you're probably favorite to win against aggro. No need to completely shut them (and bunch of other decks) off with a single card.
I'm still new to this tournament and I don't play much Legacy, so I wasn't expecting to make much of a splash with the deck. My 1-2 record was about as good as I had hoped for. But it definitely was a fun deck to play and with a little tweaking I might bring it back at some point (although I do have a few other Kobold builds that could see play before this one makes a return).
So much fun. I had a great time in both events.
If you're playing Modern, why not just play Reliquary Tower?
was just wondering if these post decks can compete with the delver and infect decks that fill the meta right now. i love to play in tourny room with my own version of post but wasnt sure if they can stand up to some of the delver decks i have played in the practice room and in the tourny room. Again great article keepem coming.
Great indeed. Some people talk/write greatness, others do it. Thanks again.
On my deck list:
I was intending to run RDW but I was having such a miserable time of it testing it that Keya took pity on me and lent me most of Affinity Shops. I'd never played Shops or any of the top tier decks before but it was fun and not terribly stressful. (My usual complaint of high level play.) In fact the players were great, and my opponents had some interesting decks: one with Pauper Storm and another with Rebels control.
The overall winner Shaddai had a really nasty Flash Hulk variant that won game 1 vs me on turn 2. Beautiful combo. I love lark and protean hulk so hard to feel bad about that. Game 2 he just crushed my dreams with a FOW vs my turn 1 lodestone golem (Workshop + lotus petal) and back to back strip/waste/waste for my only lands of the game.
Awesome event and extremely well run. I had a riot and hope to see some of the masses that came out filter into Classic. Hope to see you join some Classic DE's.
So great to see the community band together for such a great cause. Let's do it again next year Blippy :)
Awesome event and extremely well run. I had a riot and hope to see some of the masses that came out filter into Classic. Hope to see you join some Classic DE's.
So great to see the community band together for such a great cause. Let's do it again next year Blippy :)
Because I am such a fan of transgression, you have to tell me why you are banned in the US.
Message me in game or on MTGSally because right to privacy rules.
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