Well, maybe you're right and Gideon will be way more enabled in Commander than in other Constructed formats (which, after all, are what currently influences the price and general reputation). I still don't feel like people will embrace en masse a planeswalker that does next to nothing before going ultimate, then does a (I agree) very annoying thing without even guaranteeing you'll be on top after that.
As for Obzedat, I don't know if it'll show up a lot as a Commander (for one, I like my 1- or 2-color Commanders to be more interactive with my cards), but it sure is one of the best creatures in the set overall, possibly the top one.
I didn't even consider that the mana symbol in extort is just a reminder text and the actual rule text just reads "Extort" and nothing else. It's kinda unusual, isn't it? Off the top of my mind, I can't recall any hard keyworded ability (as opposed to stuff like bloodrush, where the different costs have to be explicitly stated on the text) with mana symbols in the reminder text.
I made that list (which I just updated with the 5 Gatecrash legends) for the Tribal Commander event, which we'll do again a couple more times this year. I'll be glad if you'll join us. :)
From experience, I can already tell you that the black primordial is fantastic in a reanimator deck. I'm using Teneb, the Harvester. I found someone's Acidic Slime- twice- and blew up the same Caged Sun twice. Didn't think I'd beat an Omnath deck quite that way.
Nice breakdown. So how often to you run Dark Confidant out there without SDT? And what happens when you do? Although you start off by noting the high CMC cards in your deck, it looks like overall your average CMC is pretty low. I think that you're one of only 2 people I've ever seen use the card. And you're right, I do hate SDT soooo much.
Psychic Spiral is interesting, I never really gave it much consideration. Graveborn Muse is obviously doubly nice due to the synergy with Thrax. Don't know if I can get behind Fire-Field Ogre though. Just seems like a color heavy 4 drop without much in the way of special abilities.
No Oblivion Stone? Seems like a Grixis staple as a way of dealing with enchantments that get through the counters.
Yeah, Gruul and Orzhov aren't really that great. I do like that Gruul is basically Brand with more options, but neither of them are really exciting enough for me to go out and get them into decks.
As for the Slumlord... You're right, Stax decks will like him. But do I really want to help out Stax players? Nope. Let them figure out their own tech. They're smart enough to get it.
As for the primordials, I think we're going to see variations of these types of multiplayer cards a lot in the future. Wizards knows that kitchen table players (meaning most Commander players) like these type of cards. But like I said, you can only cram so many of these into your decks without being too top heavy.
Great review just wanted to point out a few things.
1) Aurelia's Fury also stops players from casting non-creature spells which is an important part that you didn't mention.
2) I despise all of the primordials because they all feel like sledgehammer designs where you just rush to 7 mana and they do dumb things for you.
3) I don't think Enter the Infinite will be banned, even though I would like it to be, simply because for 12 mana you can do a number of other things to draw your entire deck and win already.
4) It makes me kinda sad how bad Gruul Charm and Orzhov Charm are compared to the other 8 charms because I was looking forward to 5 more playable charms in this set, but only got 3.
5) I think you're undervaluing Ogre Slumlord because his effect generates a rat token whenever any non-token creature dies so for a stax or control deck slumlord can give you another way to feed Braids, Cabal Minion or Smokestack.
I ran into a version of this deck using Chromatic Sphere. Seems like it worked ok. I wouldn't mind running Chromatic Sphere but I'm not entirely sure what I would cut for it.
For the new Gideon, I think my opinion was influenced by the fact that I seem to run into Ghave EVERY SINGLE GAME. And if it isn't Ghave, it's some other token producer. So I was constantly seeing board states where a single opponent would have 5-8 creatures out at a time. Maybe it's just my own game play experience, I dunno. But I do know that people start to crap their pants if they think that the whole board is going to be reset anytime soon. Sort of like seeing the Karn planeswalker running around. But if token strategies are on the wane, you're right, he isn't that great. I'm more than happy to be wrong about him.
Completely missed the "may" trigger on Obzedat. My bad. Makes him a lot better actually.
Regarding Enter the Infinite, I think it'll be a while before it gets banned. The mana cost is slightly prohibitive, and it doesn't automatically put everyone at 1 life. So we'll probably see a probationary period for the card before they decide whether to ban it.
Inferno means the instant, irremediable death of so many crucial things (Deathrite Shaman, Confidant, Delver, Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, Sower of Temptation, 3 flying tokens, what-have-you, up to Boros Reckoner) that it ends up being more tactical than Frost could ever be, even not counting the case where they're both immediately answered. Stopping one thing for one turn is just not comparable. Plus, empty board, late game: drop Frost, tap one land, next turn swing for 6; drop Inferno, deal 3 damage, next turn swing for 15. Not the same sport. :)
Budget does make the most sense for cutting Karn. As someone who often views the results of the MTGO Modern events quite often I've seen the name shoktroopa on quite a few occasions, usually (if not always) playing some fairly unconventional Tron deck. So, seems like he (or she for all I know) is pretty skilled at playing the deck.
My guess with Oboro is just that it's a blue source that you don't have to blow up if you drop a Sundering Titan, beyond that and the situation you mentioned it does do a whole lot. That's probably the reason I forgot to mention it in the deck tech, oops! :/
In terms of Karn replacements, I think I would cut at least 1 Mindslaver as I mentioned in the article. I just don't think it's always impactful as I'd like. I guess it's probably worth keeping 1 in there just because of the lock with Academy Ruins though. After that I would consider cutting a Treasure Mage (as it can't find Karn) or perhaps a Solemn (as it tends to be a little slow). Perhaps controversially I wouldn't mind cutting Platinum Angel either. It has its moments but I never really feel safe sitting behind an Angel.
Re Frost Titan: I agree he was the worst Titan and not an amazing finisher.
On the other hand Frost Titan can just win games since it locks a defender or mana or what have you down while it is in play and attacking. I agree that it isn't as incrementally good as Primeval but I think it is at least on par with Inferno.
Lord of the Void with Finest Hour and Fireshrieker....I need to make this happen.
Best uncommon of the set: Holy Mantle. Why? You slap it on a big old 6/6 dragon for 6 cmc with white in its cost. Put all the triggers on the stack forever.
Additionally, random hint: Bower Passage is really good in a deck where your general is green flier (such as Jugan the Rising Star or Scion of the Ur-Dragon).
I suspect that was a budget build by design, which means, more kudos to him for having been able to win a premier event with it. He possibly got good matchups, but he had to be a skilled player for sure, the build is all focused on countermagic, there's only a singleton Oblivion Stone to permanently solve situations where your permission wasn't effective, and you can't even tutor that up with Treasure Mage. I suspect a lot of times his battleplan was landing a Platinum Angel and controlling the game afterwards.
I also don't get Oboro, Palace in the Clouds. What's that for? Only to turn a colorless mana into blue in a turn where you didn't drop a land?
At this point, what would you replace to accomodate 3-4 Karn?
Re: Frost Titan. It's the only Titan whose effects aren't permanent. All the others put stuff on your board, or remove stuff from the opponent board, which isn't undone even if they're immediately dispatched. Same's true for Wurmcoil (if not instantly exiled) and Consecrate (if not killed the next upkeep after you dropped her.) I'd say Armada Wurm too, as far as 6-mana finishers go, but it's less versatile.
I share your love for Zegana and the rekindled passion for Simic decks!
A few things.
1) Strange that you put Gideon 2.0 among the staples, saying that it's "the big new scary card of the set", since it's probably the worst-received planeswalker in recent times, right after Tibalt. (It's sold for 5 tix during release, that's code for saying that nobody really wants him. You can almost have a full playset in exchange for a single Domri Rade.)
You sure you didn't misread his ability like it's saying "every opponent"? Because on many tables you might need 10 turns to go ultimate with him (and they're not gonna let that happen anyway), and in the meantime Gideon did absolutely nothing. Then what? You scorched the board, and are left with a tiny Gideon, if not a dead one. You'd need a complex deck strategy to take advantage of that situation. In the average deck, it seems way easier to draw 6 cards with Zegana than to do something useful with this Gideon. I'd say strictly worse than Gideon 1.0, hands down.
2) Obzedat can block. It says that you "may" exile it. It's your call, you can either block with it, or protect it from removal and drain the opponent. It's also a great combo with YOUR instant sweepers.
3) Re: Enter the Infinite. I'm pretty sure it'll be banned in Commander, just like Worldfire was.
4) Re: "you can play Basilica Screecher in a mono-Black deck, and Basilica Guards in a mono-White deck."
Can you? I thought those had multicolored color identities. Just like you can't play Thelon of Havenwood in a green deck, or you can play blue cards in a Memnarch-helmed deck. Am I wrong?
I've made a complete list of all the 490 existing Commanders (6 of which are banned), with their creature types. I'll share it here, might be useful: enjoy. (It's MTG data, not MTGO, so some of those aren't online.)
Yeah, when I was playing the deck I kind of wished I could just drop a Karn Liberated. As I didn't design the deck I don't really know the reason he wasn't included. Sadly, I don't own any Karns so I can't try it out but its certainly something I would want to experiment with if I did. I agree that there isn't any obvious reason not to play Karn.
Yeah, he's not all that great against some decks. However, he tends to be pretty awesome against Birthing Pod, Zoo decks etc.
Yeah, I had the Urborg interaction come up when I was playing against an Infect deck. I played Sundering Titan and blew up their Inkmoth Nexus which was pretty devastating for them. It's a nice interaction though I'm not sure how easy it would be to fit it in this deck.
I once ran a tron with 4 Sundering Titans in a 4-round Modern PRE. I faced: RDW, Soul Sisters, MB Zombie, Soul Sisters (something similar happened when I decided to run a monored build with maindeck Blood Moons. I'm not the luckiest guy with these meta-calls.)
By the way, Sundering really likes Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which makes him able to kill lands without basic types. Granted, in my green build it was easier to find the singleton copy of that (of course it only happened when I was facing Zombies.)
What I don't get is why the deck doesn't run Karn Liberated? At some point you have to tap out to play the big creatures, and when you untap, you're more able to defend Karn than a green build is.
I like the idea of calling Wurmcoil the 6th Titan. Of course this means Consecrated Sphinx is the 5th, right? :)
Eldrazi triggers are another possible use for Trickbind, though if an Eldrazi is dropping on the other side of the board you're probably in a pretty bad way already.
I'm guessing you mean Squelch which is 2 mana. I've seen that being used too.
Duplicant is a decent shout, though it is quite matchup dependent. Against some decks he's kind of a dud. Trinket Mage is also another interesting suggestion for searching out Expedition Maps etc. However, I don't think I'd be too happy running Treasure Mages and Trinket Mages at the same time. If you can find the right balance it could work though.
I've actually got a few matches recorded, but I'm unable to upload them, so once I find a way to do so they will be up. I'll start recording match data now though.
I can see Trcikbind being useful for the triggered ability of Eldrazis. I see people replacing it with the 4cc card that counters activated abilities and cantrips, forget the name. I played with the idea of running duplicant. Guy seems really good to eat away certain threats. Depends how the meta shapes. I have played with playing a number of Trinket Mages in the SB to dig for the maps and hate cards. I think the deck is great but the hate is really high. I have thought about replacing the talisman for prophetic prism to cantrip further into the deck.
Well, maybe you're right and Gideon will be way more enabled in Commander than in other Constructed formats (which, after all, are what currently influences the price and general reputation). I still don't feel like people will embrace en masse a planeswalker that does next to nothing before going ultimate, then does a (I agree) very annoying thing without even guaranteeing you'll be on top after that.
As for Obzedat, I don't know if it'll show up a lot as a Commander (for one, I like my 1- or 2-color Commanders to be more interactive with my cards), but it sure is one of the best creatures in the set overall, possibly the top one.
I didn't even consider that the mana symbol in extort is just a reminder text and the actual rule text just reads "Extort" and nothing else. It's kinda unusual, isn't it? Off the top of my mind, I can't recall any hard keyworded ability (as opposed to stuff like bloodrush, where the different costs have to be explicitly stated on the text) with mana symbols in the reminder text.
I made that list (which I just updated with the 5 Gatecrash legends) for the Tribal Commander event, which we'll do again a couple more times this year. I'll be glad if you'll join us. :)
From experience, I can already tell you that the black primordial is fantastic in a reanimator deck. I'm using Teneb, the Harvester. I found someone's Acidic Slime- twice- and blew up the same Caged Sun twice. Didn't think I'd beat an Omnath deck quite that way.
Nice breakdown. So how often to you run Dark Confidant out there without SDT? And what happens when you do? Although you start off by noting the high CMC cards in your deck, it looks like overall your average CMC is pretty low. I think that you're one of only 2 people I've ever seen use the card. And you're right, I do hate SDT soooo much.
Psychic Spiral is interesting, I never really gave it much consideration. Graveborn Muse is obviously doubly nice due to the synergy with Thrax. Don't know if I can get behind Fire-Field Ogre though. Just seems like a color heavy 4 drop without much in the way of special abilities.
No Oblivion Stone? Seems like a Grixis staple as a way of dealing with enchantments that get through the counters.
Yeah, Gruul and Orzhov aren't really that great. I do like that Gruul is basically Brand with more options, but neither of them are really exciting enough for me to go out and get them into decks.
As for the Slumlord... You're right, Stax decks will like him. But do I really want to help out Stax players? Nope. Let them figure out their own tech. They're smart enough to get it.
As for the primordials, I think we're going to see variations of these types of multiplayer cards a lot in the future. Wizards knows that kitchen table players (meaning most Commander players) like these type of cards. But like I said, you can only cram so many of these into your decks without being too top heavy.
Ugh, really? That's pretty awful then. Sad times.
Great review just wanted to point out a few things.
1) Aurelia's Fury also stops players from casting non-creature spells which is an important part that you didn't mention.
2) I despise all of the primordials because they all feel like sledgehammer designs where you just rush to 7 mana and they do dumb things for you.
3) I don't think Enter the Infinite will be banned, even though I would like it to be, simply because for 12 mana you can do a number of other things to draw your entire deck and win already.
4) It makes me kinda sad how bad Gruul Charm and Orzhov Charm are compared to the other 8 charms because I was looking forward to 5 more playable charms in this set, but only got 3.
5) I think you're undervaluing Ogre Slumlord because his effect generates a rat token whenever any non-token creature dies so for a stax or control deck slumlord can give you another way to feed Braids, Cabal Minion or Smokestack.
I ran into a version of this deck using Chromatic Sphere. Seems like it worked ok. I wouldn't mind running Chromatic Sphere but I'm not entirely sure what I would cut for it.
Soul Ransom is not removal - opponent may discard to get Aura sacrificed, not creature. So it's either Mind Control or Mindculling efect.
You're right about Bower Passage, that's a good find. Other interesting Commanders would be Jenara, Intet, Darigaaz, Karrthus, Rith and Vorosh!
For the new Gideon, I think my opinion was influenced by the fact that I seem to run into Ghave EVERY SINGLE GAME. And if it isn't Ghave, it's some other token producer. So I was constantly seeing board states where a single opponent would have 5-8 creatures out at a time. Maybe it's just my own game play experience, I dunno. But I do know that people start to crap their pants if they think that the whole board is going to be reset anytime soon. Sort of like seeing the Karn planeswalker running around. But if token strategies are on the wane, you're right, he isn't that great. I'm more than happy to be wrong about him.
Completely missed the "may" trigger on Obzedat. My bad. Makes him a lot better actually.
Regarding Enter the Infinite, I think it'll be a while before it gets banned. The mana cost is slightly prohibitive, and it doesn't automatically put everyone at 1 life. So we'll probably see a probationary period for the card before they decide whether to ban it.
With the Extort mechanic, I guess the ruling is that reminder text does not affect color identity. Sheldon talks about a little bit in the second paragraph of his review of the set here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25584_Gatecrash-Set-Review-Commande...
Sweet list! I'm always looking for new commanders to build around.
Inferno means the instant, irremediable death of so many crucial things (Deathrite Shaman, Confidant, Delver, Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, Sower of Temptation, 3 flying tokens, what-have-you, up to Boros Reckoner) that it ends up being more tactical than Frost could ever be, even not counting the case where they're both immediately answered. Stopping one thing for one turn is just not comparable. Plus, empty board, late game: drop Frost, tap one land, next turn swing for 6; drop Inferno, deal 3 damage, next turn swing for 15. Not the same sport. :)
Budget does make the most sense for cutting Karn. As someone who often views the results of the MTGO Modern events quite often I've seen the name shoktroopa on quite a few occasions, usually (if not always) playing some fairly unconventional Tron deck. So, seems like he (or she for all I know) is pretty skilled at playing the deck.
My guess with Oboro is just that it's a blue source that you don't have to blow up if you drop a Sundering Titan, beyond that and the situation you mentioned it does do a whole lot. That's probably the reason I forgot to mention it in the deck tech, oops! :/
In terms of Karn replacements, I think I would cut at least 1 Mindslaver as I mentioned in the article. I just don't think it's always impactful as I'd like. I guess it's probably worth keeping 1 in there just because of the lock with Academy Ruins though. After that I would consider cutting a Treasure Mage (as it can't find Karn) or perhaps a Solemn (as it tends to be a little slow). Perhaps controversially I wouldn't mind cutting Platinum Angel either. It has its moments but I never really feel safe sitting behind an Angel.
Re Frost Titan: I agree he was the worst Titan and not an amazing finisher.
On the other hand Frost Titan can just win games since it locks a defender or mana or what have you down while it is in play and attacking. I agree that it isn't as incrementally good as Primeval but I think it is at least on par with Inferno.
Lord of the Void with Finest Hour and Fireshrieker....I need to make this happen.
Best uncommon of the set: Holy Mantle. Why? You slap it on a big old 6/6 dragon for 6 cmc with white in its cost. Put all the triggers on the stack forever.
Additionally, random hint: Bower Passage is really good in a deck where your general is green flier (such as Jugan the Rising Star or Scion of the Ur-Dragon).
I suspect that was a budget build by design, which means, more kudos to him for having been able to win a premier event with it. He possibly got good matchups, but he had to be a skilled player for sure, the build is all focused on countermagic, there's only a singleton Oblivion Stone to permanently solve situations where your permission wasn't effective, and you can't even tutor that up with Treasure Mage. I suspect a lot of times his battleplan was landing a Platinum Angel and controlling the game afterwards.
I also don't get Oboro, Palace in the Clouds. What's that for? Only to turn a colorless mana into blue in a turn where you didn't drop a land?
At this point, what would you replace to accomodate 3-4 Karn?
Re: Frost Titan. It's the only Titan whose effects aren't permanent. All the others put stuff on your board, or remove stuff from the opponent board, which isn't undone even if they're immediately dispatched. Same's true for Wurmcoil (if not instantly exiled) and Consecrate (if not killed the next upkeep after you dropped her.) I'd say Armada Wurm too, as far as 6-mana finishers go, but it's less versatile.
Had a bit of a think about it. Chromatic Sphere?
I share your love for Zegana and the rekindled passion for Simic decks!
A few things.
1) Strange that you put Gideon 2.0 among the staples, saying that it's "the big new scary card of the set", since it's probably the worst-received planeswalker in recent times, right after Tibalt. (It's sold for 5 tix during release, that's code for saying that nobody really wants him. You can almost have a full playset in exchange for a single Domri Rade.)
You sure you didn't misread his ability like it's saying "every opponent"? Because on many tables you might need 10 turns to go ultimate with him (and they're not gonna let that happen anyway), and in the meantime Gideon did absolutely nothing. Then what? You scorched the board, and are left with a tiny Gideon, if not a dead one. You'd need a complex deck strategy to take advantage of that situation. In the average deck, it seems way easier to draw 6 cards with Zegana than to do something useful with this Gideon. I'd say strictly worse than Gideon 1.0, hands down.
2) Obzedat can block. It says that you "may" exile it. It's your call, you can either block with it, or protect it from removal and drain the opponent. It's also a great combo with YOUR instant sweepers.
3) Re: Enter the Infinite. I'm pretty sure it'll be banned in Commander, just like Worldfire was.
4) Re: "you can play Basilica Screecher in a mono-Black deck, and Basilica Guards in a mono-White deck."
Can you? I thought those had multicolored color identities. Just like you can't play Thelon of Havenwood in a green deck, or you can play blue cards in a Memnarch-helmed deck. Am I wrong?
I've made a complete list of all the 490 existing Commanders (6 of which are banned), with their creature types. I'll share it here, might be useful: enjoy. (It's MTG data, not MTGO, so some of those aren't online.)
Yeah, when I was playing the deck I kind of wished I could just drop a Karn Liberated. As I didn't design the deck I don't really know the reason he wasn't included. Sadly, I don't own any Karns so I can't try it out but its certainly something I would want to experiment with if I did. I agree that there isn't any obvious reason not to play Karn.
Not a fan of old Frosty, Kuma? Haha.
Yeah, he's not all that great against some decks. However, he tends to be pretty awesome against Birthing Pod, Zoo decks etc.
Yeah, I had the Urborg interaction come up when I was playing against an Infect deck. I played Sundering Titan and blew up their Inkmoth Nexus which was pretty devastating for them. It's a nice interaction though I'm not sure how easy it would be to fit it in this deck.
I once ran a tron with 4 Sundering Titans in a 4-round Modern PRE. I faced: RDW, Soul Sisters, MB Zombie, Soul Sisters (something similar happened when I decided to run a monored build with maindeck Blood Moons. I'm not the luckiest guy with these meta-calls.)
By the way, Sundering really likes Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which makes him able to kill lands without basic types. Granted, in my green build it was easier to find the singleton copy of that (of course it only happened when I was facing Zombies.)
What I don't get is why the deck doesn't run Karn Liberated? At some point you have to tap out to play the big creatures, and when you untap, you're more able to defend Karn than a green build is.
I like the idea of calling Wurmcoil the 6th Titan. Of course this means Consecrated Sphinx is the 5th, right? :)
Thanks for the comment!
Eldrazi triggers are another possible use for Trickbind, though if an Eldrazi is dropping on the other side of the board you're probably in a pretty bad way already.
I'm guessing you mean Squelch which is 2 mana. I've seen that being used too.
Duplicant is a decent shout, though it is quite matchup dependent. Against some decks he's kind of a dud. Trinket Mage is also another interesting suggestion for searching out Expedition Maps etc. However, I don't think I'd be too happy running Treasure Mages and Trinket Mages at the same time. If you can find the right balance it could work though.
I've actually got a few matches recorded, but I'm unable to upload them, so once I find a way to do so they will be up. I'll start recording match data now though.
I can see Trcikbind being useful for the triggered ability of Eldrazis. I see people replacing it with the 4cc card that counters activated abilities and cantrips, forget the name. I played with the idea of running duplicant. Guy seems really good to eat away certain threats. Depends how the meta shapes. I have played with playing a number of Trinket Mages in the SB to dig for the maps and hate cards. I think the deck is great but the hate is really high. I have thought about replacing the talisman for prophetic prism to cantrip further into the deck.
Dinrova Horror wheeling makes me sad. It's an even better Voidwielder! Guess I'll be going Dimirzhov often in the future.